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[CHART] Barbarian DPS vs. Squire DPS


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[QUOTE]2)I would think barbarian DPS slowly gets better than squire DPS as attack goes up. At max stats (though almost no one would legitimately get these) I would think Barbarian has higher DPS. This is because on a squire the max attack is 2712 (120+468+468+468+468+360+360, stats+armor+head+gloves+boots+weapon+pet). A barbarian gets the bonus weapon and has a max of 3072 (2712 +360, previous +bonus weapon).[/QUOTE]

Problem is at those levels of gear the diminishing return is so high that going from one point to the other in stats would net almost no difference in damage.
[QUOTE]
5)The animus pets do damage according to your hero's damage, correct? If that involves weapons, the barbarians should be about twice the squires, because of two weapons, correct? [/QUOTE]

Afaik, Animus is only based on Hero Damage stats, not weapon and as such, the Barb one would do something like 10% more damage, if not dminishing returns apply

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Just some thoughts. I only read random posts on first two pages, so forgive me if I am repeating.

1)Does barbarian DPS depend on what the two weapons he is using are? Such as, Two katanas theoretically should be the best because they are the fastest and thus should do the combo more. If not, how is attack speed determined? If determined by primary weapon then obvious best would be primary katana and secondary the slowest but most damage, which is hammer I believe?
2)I would think barbarian DPS slowly gets better than squire DPS as attack goes up. At max stats (though almost no one would legitimately get these) I would think Barbarian has higher DPS. This is because on a squire the max attack is 2712 (120+468+468+468+468+360+360, stats+armor+head+gloves+boots+weapon+pet). A barbarian gets the bonus weapon and has a max of 3072 (2712 +360, previous +bonus weapon).
3)Survivability, the longer you survive the more damage you do, so with barbarians turtle and siphon stances that might help the barbarian do more damage.
4)The first stance appears to just do low damage, doesn't seem to have a point except for movement speed. Which is covered by jump attack. So maybe fully upgraded it does a lot more damage?
5)The animus pets do damage according to your hero's damage, correct? If that involves weapons, the barbarians should be about twice the squires, because of two weapons, correct?


1) You may do more combos but the combos would hit for less as the damage of the weapon would be less than say a slow hammer

2) You could get more but I don't believe it will make a great difference. Also you would not be getting 360 off of the extra weapon - I don't think I've ever seen one drop with that high at least, and you wouldn't be adding points in to it over the weapon's damage.

3) Siphon generally makes you take too much damage for your HP pool in NM and turtle doesn't last long enough. Squire/countess has block / bloodrage / CTA and can block while webbed where a barb loses all stances while webbed. Squire has more HP.

4) Pretty much just for movement around the map from what I can tell, or if you are fully up'd it's fun to use for non NM situations

5) "hero damage" I believe - the stat - not the damage of the weapons, so not much difference. Semi-mute point anyways as generally other pets are more useful.

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the squire can replicate his 4 swing + slice combo every second while they barb would have essentially zero dps for the second following hawk strike.

I have already taken this into account. If you look on the chart you see the barbs DPS does not increase for a second after the Hawk Strike. And both Circular Slash and Hawk Stike have a 4 second cooldown, which as also been taken into effect in the chart.
[QUOTE]attempting to balance him versus a sustainability based hero like the squire in terms of effectiveness or usefulness in actual game play is pointless. if you try to play a barb like a squire you are not using him correctly and will fail to benefit from his true abilities. just because he is melee based and the traditional association with a barbarian is "dps'er", does not mean that is how he was designed in this game[/QUOTE]
The Barb is a pure DPS character. I'm comparing his DPS to another hybrid character and he is inferior. What is the correct use for the barb if not DPS? He cannot tank as well as the squire.
[QUOTE]also a correction to what was posted previously somewhere in here: the barb does NOT have 50% of the health of a squire. their hp scaling is almost exactly the same.[/QUOTE]
This is almost true on normal difficulty levels, the barb will have just slightly lower health than a squire with equal stats. But on Nightmare the Barb has far less health.
And I said Squire had 50% more, not that the Barb has 50% of what the Squire has, there's a sizable difference.
With ~2000 HH my squire had 360k HP on Nightmare.
with ~2100 HH my barb had around 240k HP on Nightmare.

I like the ideas you mentioned though.



[QUOTE]2)I would think barbarian DPS slowly gets better than squire DPS as attack goes up. At max stats (though almost no one would legitimately get these) I would think Barbarian has higher DPS. This is because on a squire the max attack is 2712 (120+468+468+468+468+360+360, stats+armor+head+gloves+boots+weapon+pet). A barbarian gets the bonus weapon and has a max of 3072 (2712 +360, previous +bonus weapon).
3)Survivability, the longer you survive the more damage you do, so with barbarians turtle and siphon stances that might help the barbarian do more damage.[/QUOTE]
2) The stats displayed in the graph have already taken into account the additional item stat bonuses. The barbs HD was roughly 200 points higher than the Squires I believe. even so the difference between 2700 and 3000 HD isn't nearly big enough to make up for the advantage the squire has.
3) While I was able to tank well in short bursts using the turtle stance, the squire with 50% more health survived much longer than my Barb did.



[QUOTE]Wow want to know which swords u used ^^[/QUOTE]
knox posted screenshot's of his character stats on the first page. You cannot see the stats on the swords in the screenshot, but you can see what type they are and his hero stats.

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Very nicely done its nice to see people actually providing fixes and analyzes rather than just complaining of how horrible the Barb is. Kinda waste of money for what its worth atm.

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The Barb is a pure DPS character. I'm comparing his DPS to another hybrid character and he is inferior. What is the correct use for the barb if not DPS? He cannot tank as well as the squire.

This is almost true on normal difficulty levels, the barb will have just slightly lower health than a squire with equal stats. But on Nightmare the Barb has far less health.
And I said Squire had 50% more, not that the Barb has 50% of what the Squire has, there's a sizable difference.
With ~2000 HH my squire had 360k HP on Nightmare.
with ~2100 HH my barb had around 240k HP on Nightmare.



interesting, i just checked again and you are right. i have the feeling this was adjusted in 16.a without notes as testing ~3 hours after release showed my barb had even more hp in nightmare than my squire (some of that was from the additional weapon, but not enough to account for a 50% increase)

in reference to the role of the barb he is a utility class. there are a variety of potential jobs for the barb as a utility class from burst tanking, extended mobility, and of course burst dps. these are just the obvious possibilities, i am sure map/scenario specific uses will arise. this is a very different role for a hero compared to existing heroes and it is easy to relegate the barb to a pure dps role given his lack of towers and use of two weapons. as i said though, doing this will drastically reduce the effectiveness of the barb since you are not using him to his full potential. the fact that the barb is not suited to a pure dps role is evident from your own testing which shows his sustained dps is inferior to that of a squire.

i think the DD community as a whole will have a difficult time adjusting to using such a different character. i would not be surprised to see trendy revise the barb and implement a dumbed down version that can be used just as a dps hero with stances becoming more of a novelty

(just to differentiate between utility and support: a support class would be one that boosts others along with himself and possibly even towers. while this was a popular speculation of the barb's role prior to release, it was obviously completely wrong. utility is one that can serve several specific and different roles as an individual depending upon the situation)

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Wow want to know which swords u used ^^


A 249^ Demon Sword with 30k dmg and a 254^ Greatsword with 32k damage.

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[QUOTE]in reference to the role of the barb he is a utility class. there are a variety of potential jobs for the barb as a utility class from burst tanking, extended mobility, and of course burst dps. these are just the obvious possibilities, i am sure map/scenario specific uses will arise. this is a very different role for a hero compared to existing heroes and it is easy to relegate the barb to a pure dps role given his lack of towers and use of two weapons. as i said though, doing this will drastically reduce the effectiveness of the barb since you are not using him to his full potential. the fact that the barb is not suited to a pure dps role is evident from your own testing which shows his sustained dps is inferior to that of a squire.[/QUOTE]
Ill give you that he can burst tank better than any other class for short periods of time. And using the tornado stance he can move at a decent speed, but I believe the countess is still faster.
But as far as burst damage goes the squire still far exceeds him in potential, the Barb's strongest attack doesn't do as much damage as a rage+circular slash, and it doesnt hit as many enemies, not to mention all the other negatives about the attack.

Trendy themselves has marketed the Barb as a fully DPS chararacter, not "A utility character that can be kind of useful in rare situations." I feel like you're defending him too much.

[QUOTE]utility is one that can serve several specific and different roles as an individual depending upon the situation)[/QUOTE]
Then name some roles the Barbarian would be best at.
Huntresses/Rangers can repair better since they are faster and have invisibility. Squires have more life and can last longer on HC survival games.
The turtle stance is good for tanking short periods of time, but doesn't last long enough to kill most ogres or bosses. So it's good for tanking mobs?
So what scenario would the Barb be best at. And you tell me if that scenario worth devoting a whole character to.


On a side not I most all the barbs special attacks useless. With 400-500 points in the battle pound it did less damage then a standard combo, and costs 100 mana. The hawkstance is capable of doing a nice spike, but it only hits one enemy, cost a lot of mana, and leaves you vulnerable and unable to damage anything else for a short period of time. The Leap ability can be useful in certain situations, but I dont find myself using it much.

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any one try elemental weapons? since he can hold 2 you can cover 2 different elements and elemental dmg scales higher then reg dmg as well as being able to add 120 points into something other then hero attack and dose the tornado stance (think that's the right stance haven't really played with him yet) lower just your hero attack damage or both hero attack and elemental damage

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any one try elemental weapons? since he can hold 2 you can cover 2 different elements and elemental dmg scales higher then reg dmg as well as being able to add 120 points into something other then hero attack and dose the tornado stance (think that's the right stance haven't really played with him yet) lower just your hero attack damage or both hero attack and elemental damage




I tried it just now
It doesn't scale with Hero damage, it doesn't scale with the bonuses you get when using Battle Pound or Battle Leap. It doesn't scale with Hawk Strike, it's damage scales down when using Tornado Stance however.
I can't say for sure if the elemental damage would effect Siphon Stance's healing effect, but I highly doubt it.

It does, however, scale with the combo damage. So there's something I guess.

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I think Atra makes an interesting point.
Let's step back for a second. It's great that you've done this analysis, but I think we can all accept that the majority of players don't have access to this kind of gear, so this comparison, while interesting, is sort of hypothetical for most people. Let's take a real world situation.
It's Misty NM Queen boss, and the squire is happily tanking the evil bint. The team doesn't have gear which can take her down in a matter of minutes (or seconds), and instead is probably going to be there 30 minutes or more, whittling away her HP.
To respond to the ogres at the walls, are you going to be better with a barbarian or a squire? Or indeed a hunter?
Given that it's entirely likely you may have a monk supporting in this scenario, and that mobility is absolutely key, is it feasible that actually, the barb is pretty useful? Or would a hunter be the best, given they can shoot from range, and probably do better repairs afterwards?

In fact, are there any situations in which the barb's specific skillset will be beneficial? Even a single one?

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Ill give you that he can burst tank better than any other class for short periods of time. And using the tornado stance he can move at a decent speed, but I believe the countess is still faster.
But as far as burst damage goes the squire still far exceeds him in potential, the Barb's strongest attack doesn't do as much damage as a rage+circular slash, and it doesnt hit as many enemies, not to mention all the other negatives about the attack.

Trendy themselves has marketed the Barb as a fully DPS chararacter, not "A utility character that can be kind of useful in rare situations." I feel like you're defending him too much.


Then name some roles the Barbarian would be best at.
Huntresses/Rangers can repair better since they are faster and have invisibility. Squires have more life and can last longer on HC survival games.
The turtle stance is good for tanking short periods of time, but doesn't last long enough to kill most ogres or bosses. So it's good for tanking mobs?
So what scenario would the Barb be best at. And you tell me if that scenario worth devoting a whole character to.


On a side not I most all the barbs special attacks useless. With 400-500 points in the battle pound it did less damage then a standard combo, and costs 100 mana. The hawkstance is capable of doing a nice spike, but it only hits one enemy, cost a lot of mana, and leaves you vulnerable and unable to damage anything else for a short period of time. The Leap ability can be useful in certain situations, but I dont find myself using it much.


with the current state of the barb i agree with you. this is why i said the barb needs a buff to its burst dps to make it a clearly superior option for burst dps over the squire. the downside being that its sustained dps is significantly less.

as far as the repairing situation, i believe people severely overestimate the usefulness of hunters in survival / endgame. invisibility is nice but having four times the health of a ranger is incredibly more useful. especially since a single mana pool now heals 100k hp in a few seconds.

for the ogre situation, a barb would have significantly more burst dps to take down the ogre than a ranger. using tornado he could reach the ogre anywhere on the map faster than the ranger, then pop turtle to tank it and hawk to melt it down.

just in general, and i know most people disagree, i find the ranger/huntress to be utterly useless. the only situation i ever prefer having a ranger over another barb/squire is if wyverns cannot be effectively covered by your towers for some reason. given the current survivability of melee classes in any instance where hero dps is actually effective against mobs, the increased safety of being a ranged class does not make up for the substantial loss in dps.

giving melee classes more health and reduced heal times this patch just further strengthened my opinion on this and increased the gap between ranged and melee. if it wasn't for the "legolas phenomenon" i would expect rangers to go the way of the aura monk, rarely being used as an active hero

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with the current state of the barb i agree with you. this is why i said the barb needs a buff to its burst dps to make it a clearly superior option for burst dps over the squire. the downside being that its sustained dps is significantly less.


okay I misunderstood you.
I just want to see a role evolve for the Barb, because at the moment there's nothing he can do that another class cant do better. I don't care what the role is, be it tanking, ogre sniping, or straight DPS, he just needs a niche.

I would personally like to see him fill the ogre/boss killing role, his auras are pretty well suited for it if only his special attacks did way more damage.

Also I agree with you that hunters are pretty useless once you hit NM. This could be remedied if they cut out the projectile speed nerf and buffed the hunters NM life a little more.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Wow this thread is out-dated. Please update barb's DPS now that the combo is AUTO (and is way faster than manually doing it).

Siphon makes Barb immortal.
Turtle makes Barb immortal.

Easily outranks squire as a tanker. EASILY. You people have no clue how to use him.

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Wow this thread is out-dated. Please update barb's DPS now that the combo is AUTO (and is way faster than manually doing it).

Siphon makes Barb immortal.
Turtle makes Barb immortal.

Easily outranks squire as a tanker. EASILY. You people have no clue how to use him.


To claim people have no clue is unfair. The last post about this topic in this thread was from more than 2 weeks ago...before multiple patches. It is fair to say that the barbarian has been mucho buffed in the tanking department since then.

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Barbarians have been a good replacement in NM MM SURV for my squire. The squire can have better damage reduction with block, but he's locked in place, can't attack and still takes damage from behind. The barbarian can turtle and melee damage on mobs. Siphon allows a quick heal when used in low risk situations.

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