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[CHART] Barbarian DPS vs. Squire DPS


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I did some testing using the same exact gear on my lvl 74 Squire and lvl 74 Barb.
Here's a cap of the results:
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/4786/whatdoesthismean.jpg

UPDATE:
I met with knox (the guy everyone is talking about when they say 'I saw a barb hit 22m dps') and he probably has the strongest Barbarian character I've seen. Together we recorded the DPS of his Squire and his Barb both using the same gear and we agreed upon the numbers (those numbers are posted on page 2).
This is a graph compiled using those results.

When a Barb is powered up by a nearby Monk aura he CAN do slightly more DPS than a Squire, (also where the 22m screenshot comes from.)
I didn't compile the data into a graph because its uncommon to be powered by a Monk aura in normal gameplay, but these are the final numbers,
Total Damage after 12 seconds
Squire + Rage + Monk: 97.8m
Barbarian + Monk: 103.8m

Note: You must also keep in mind it's far harder to consistently keep a Barbarian combo going than it is to keep a Squire combo going. This graph is assuming you pull off combo's absolutely perfectly with the barb and that is not humanly possible currently. The following patch is said to be adding an auto attack in which would allow this to be achieved.

Do I have too much free time on my hands? Most definitely.


Notes:
Damage:
On average the Squire does more DPS than the Barb.
The only advantage I see the Barb having over the Squire is his combo DPS is higher than the Squire's standard attack, but it is much harder to use consistently. On the other hand the Squire's standard attack more than powerful enough to take care of mobs and with Rage the Squire can almost double the Barbarians damage output making him more useful against bosses, ogres, and assault maps.
Potential Fix:
Make holding both Right and Left click down automatically execute the L/R/L/R Combo.EDIT: This is said to be coming in the next patch. Buff the Hawk Stance's damage considerably, make the Hawk Stance power up the Jump and Pound moves as well? Make one of the barb's stances improve his DPS, perhaps the tornado or lightning stance.

Defense:
The Squire has on average 50% MORE health than the Barb on Nightmare.
The barb does have a few decent stances to help with defense:
I found the Health Drain stance to be mostly useless on NM, most mobs damage me far faster than I could heal myself.
The Turtle Stance was useful, but didn't last long enough to make much of a difference.
The Squire has the ability to block, but cannot move around like the Barb does with the Turtle Stance.
Potential Fix:
In my opinion the Squire far out performs the Barb as a tank, which I believe should be the case. The Barb should be more about damage output.

Misc:
The Barb has a faster movement speed than the Squire.
The Squire's attacks seem to swing in larger arcs than the Barb's.
With the new Assault weapon, my Ranger does ~4m DPS with just a standard attack, far outperforming both classes in standard damage output with slightly lower stats. It's probably not a popular opinion but I think this weapon should be nerfed a little bit.


Conclusion:
The Barb is outclassed by most other characters in damage output, and is outclassed by the squire in BOTH damage output and defense. It's a shame the first fully DPS character can't match the potential of other hybrid characters, I would like to see some of this patched. [That does not mean nerf every other class, Trendy.]

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Use the barb correctly. There are pics up of the barb doing 10million and 20million dps...on the dps # with the special hit

Im sure they were using better gear than me. If they used that same gear on a squire they would be able to do higher DPS. I'm using the same gear on both characters and have considerably higher DPS on my squire.
If you believe I'm doing something wrong, let me know instead of just saying there are pics.

EDIT:
It's likely they were using 2 high damage slow attack speed weapons with the hawk strike. This is great for producing 1 nice spike of damage or a good screenshot, but is almost useless in real gameplay. Using the Hawk strike leaves you vulnerable and unable to move or attack for a period of time, it has a high mana cost and long cool down period. You might be able to get one good hit off, but you'll spend 99% of the rest of your time severely crippled.

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Use the barb correctly. There are pics up of the barb doing 10million and 20million dps...on the dps # with the special hit

Not everyone has 90K general damage weapon with 5000 hero damage.


@Supersalad:
About hawk stance DPS: That is more like spike damage, rather than sustained 3.9M DPS due to the down time. You can't reproduce it every time the DPS number pops up on the dummy.

I find squire dps superior to barbarian DPS in every way.

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[QUOTE]@Supersalad:
About hawk stance DPS: That is more like spike damage, rather than sustained 3.9M DPS due to the down time. You can't reproduce it every time the DPS number pops up on the dummy.[/QUOTE]

I agree and I addressed this in my above post. But I gave the Barbarian every benefit I could to hush the people that would complain (they still complained). To be fair circular slash also has a cooldown albeit a lot shorter and you are still able to attack directly afterwards.

I'm not trying to start a "Hate on Trendy" or "The barb sucks" thread. I'm merely trying to provide the most accurate comparisons as I can.

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My squire has better hero DPS and wep and my barb does way more DPS.... sowwy

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I posted it in another thread so I'll post it here
[images omitted]


There are several problems with using those pictures an an argument.

1) The Barb is clearly being buffed by a nearby monk aura.
2) The weapons and gear are much better than mine, and much better then possible for most legit players.
3) As discussed earlier, the Hawk Strike is mostly useless in a real game. It has a long cool down and leaves you vulnerable.
4) I'm positive that if the same scenario was recreated with the same gear, the Squire would on average do more DPS and do it more consistently.

They are impressive screenshots, yes, but have no place in this thread. If I wanted to I could spend a few minute and work up a screenshot of my squire doing 30m dps. This was for a comparison between the classes.


EDIT: I wrote this before you posted your second image set. I apologize for jumping to conclusions. I will post a second rebuttal soon.

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Same gear, only difference being the second sword on the barb. While the barb does indeed show a higher dps number, you have to remember a few things:

A. You cannot do any form of attack for 1 second after Hawk
B. You can only Hawk every 4 seconds
C. Hawk doesn't hit AoE

Barb is better at burst DPS, squire has much better sustained damage given the frequency of Circular Slice and no 1 second lockdown.

There are several problems with using those pictures an an argument.

1) The Barb is clearly being buffed by a nearby monk aura.
2) The weapons and gear are much better than mine, and much better then possible for most legit players.
3) As discussed earlier, the Hawk Strike is mostly useless in a real game. It has a long cool down and leaves you vulnerable.
4) I'm positive that if the same scenario was recreated with the same gear, the Squire would on average do more DPS and do it more consistently.

They are impressive screenshots, yes, but have no place in this thread. If I wanted to I could spend a few minute and work up a screenshot of my squire doing 30m dps. This was for a comparison between the classes.


Check my post right above yours, same setup and gear. And my gear is completely legit, thanks.

And before the screens look misleading, I am doing LRLR Hawk on my barb, not just Hawk stance. For the Squire it's 3 swings Circ.

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Barb is better at burst DPS, squire has much better sustained damage given the frequency of Circular Slice and no 1 second lockdown.

Okay, glad to see someone else has done this comparison, but its in a slightly uncommon setting.

I now admit that with the right setup the Barb can produce a bigger Burst hit, but I really find that altogether useless in any situation that matters. I'll address some new problems:

1) If you continuously spammed Hawk Strike you would still do less DPS than a Squire spamming Circular Slash taking into account the 1 second of immobility, not to mention it's 3 times as mana expensive. Which makes the squire better for killing Bosses and Ogres.

2) It's unclear, at least to me, how the Monk's aura stacks with the Squire's Blood Rage. This could skew the results of your test. I would like to see the same test done without the Monk, seeing as how most players are hardly ever in range of a Monk while playing a real game.

3) Since the Squire has higher DPS the Only advantage the Hawk Strike has over Squire would be if it killed an enemy in one hit that the Squire could NOT kill in 1 hit with Circular Slash. Meaning it would have to be an enemy with HP between 18m-22m. And this is almost an insignificant advantage because the Squire would kill off the enemy's remaining hitpoints during the second of down time the Barb has to sit through after using Hawk Strike. There are far more advantages to the Circular slash than that.


Again, sorry for jumping to conclusions, you did a good test. But I'm unswayed and my point remains that the Barbarian is made useless by the other classes.

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The first dps shots for each character are without the monk buff, hence no purple glow.

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Okay I'm having a hard time making out which number goes to what.

I want to crunch some equations with your results, could you pull the numbers out of your caps and fill this out for me:

I would prefer if you don't use the Monk at all for the results, but if you do use the Monk make sure to use it with every result.

Squire Blood Rage DPS:
Squire Rage + Circular slash DPS:
Barb combo DPS:
Barb Hawk Strike DPS:

Thank you.

EDIT:
From what I can tell your screenshots are showing:
Squire Circ+rage w/o monk: 13m DPS
Squire Circ+rage with monk: 17m DPS
Barb Hawk w/o monk: 10m DPS
Barb Hawk with monk: 22m DPS

If I'm correct, this means that the only time the Barb would have a better burst than a squire is with a Monk powering him up, which is uncommon in real Gameplay. But even if I were to assume the players would be constantly charged by a monk the Squire would still have higher DPS.

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Add me to friends and I can do it ingame for you right now

Invintation sent.

Update:
I met with knox and he helped me out with his character.
The DPS values we agreed upon are:

Squire without Rage DPS:
Standard: 900k
Circular Slash: 3.1m

Squire WITH Rage DPS:
Standard: 3.8m
Circular Slash: 13.5m

Squire with Rage AND Monk DPS:
Standard: 5m
Circular Slash: 17.6m


Barbarian DPS:
Combo: 2.6m
Hawk Strike: 9.9m

Barbarian WITH Monk DPS:
Combo: 5.9m
Hawk Strike: 22.8m



At first glance it would appear that a Barbarian with a Monk combo does more damage than a Squire with Rage+Monk combo, but there are other factors to consider such as the 1 second delay of Hawk Strike. I don't have excell on this computer so I'll need to download it, I'll post a graph up later demonstrating each classes effectiveness.

Big thanks to knox for helping me out with this. He's probably has the best Barb Char I know of and I'm using HIS data to make these comparisons now so hopefully no one will complain this time.

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[QUOTE]Big thanks to knox for helping me out with this. He's probably has the best Barb Char I know of and I'm using HIS data to make these comparisons now so hopefully no one will complain this time.[/QUOTE]

I've now compiled the data into a chart and edited it into the first post. The results show that a Squire can almost double a perfect Barbarian players damage output and only spend about 25% more mana.

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So after all is said and done the Barb basically is close to viable in dps terms as the squire? So it comes down on giving us a style option for those wanting to play melee dps? Now of course if you factor in the Squire towers and more health.... hopefully the Barb will get some love and find a niche.

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barb has the advantage of another item slot = more stats slightly higher dps. also in 7.16b the auto double attack will increase how fast you can combo, combined with tornado stance (which got ninja buffed in 7.16a less damage reduction, dunno if it'll be higher dps than without it) you'll attack fast.

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barb has the advantage of another item slot = more stats slightly higher dps. also in 7.16b the auto double attack will increase how fast you can combo, combined with tornado stance (which got ninja buffed in 7.16a less damage reduction, dunno if it'll be higher dps than without it) you'll attack fast.

We have fully utilized the additional item slot and stat bonuses in those charts. The barb has on average 250-300+ more stat points in all the skills that matter and still is almost doubled by Squire DPS. Also the chart is assuming a perfect combo anyways, the auto attack will just allow for it to be humanly achieved. There's no way to cut it in which Blood Rage DPS doesn't completely destroy the Barb's DPS.

But the following two things you mentioned are good fixes I was talking about. I'm not saying "the barb sucks", I'm just saying right now he's made useless by the Squire and needs some tweaking.

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Fantastic testing results and pretty much what I expected. Even at a much, much, much lower gear level my squire destroys my barb in DPS. I'm really looking forward to the auto combo, all that clicking kills my already sore wrists (between work and play I spend on average 14 hours a day at a kb) and I hope to see improvements in the future.

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suggestions and comments:

dp2s or avg dps (damage per 2 seconds or the average of 2 consecutive dps values) would give a much better representation of effective dps for the barb / squire. the squire can replicate his 4 swing + slice combo every second while they barb would have essentially zero dps for the second following hawk strike.

the barb is an entirely situational and burst (not only dps burst, but ability burst) hero

attempting to balance him versus a sustainability based hero like the squire in terms of effectiveness or usefulness in actual game play is pointless. if you try to play a barb like a squire you are not using him correctly and will fail to benefit from his true abilities. just because he is melee based and the traditional association with a barbarian is "dps'er", does not mean that is how he was designed in this game

the barb needs to be balanced on his own based on his usefulness as determined from actual in game experience, not from a statistical comparison to a totally different class

so what does this all mean? well from my testing since release i would say that hawk stance should be given a noticeably higher damage output but an increased cooldown. a well geared barb would be able to do significantly more burst dps on an ogre than a squire with little risk when combined with turtle stance.

keeping in mind i have not tested the other stances thoroughly in later wave survival, but i see siphon and lightning being near useless in their current state. turtle has obvious advantages for repairing and surviving in general, as does tornado due to its increased mobility. the fact that without turtle the barb would get wrecked amid mobs in late wave survival while meleeing means that only one other stance could be used, which will most likely be a quick hawk strike.

initial ideas for improving other stances: lightning could use a significant boost / AoE effect and siphon could heal team mates as well


also a correction to what was posted previously somewhere in here: the barb does NOT have 50% of the health of a squire. their hp scaling is almost exactly the same.

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I personally think that one of the stances (perhaps one of the less useful ones right now) should be given web protection. This would give us a clear reason to choose the barbarian over the squire, while still keeping the advantages of a squire.

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Excellent post! You really should add in Countess as well with CTA as that gives her a huge effective HP pool and high damage buff.

My initial playing with barbarian honestly has been disappointing. For a pure dps class, playing in NM its not worth it. Huntress can stand back and shoot, squire and countess have more hp, and the aura's he has seem lackluster overall.

If they were able to remove some of the negatives from the aura's, I think he would be a lot more viable.

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Just some thoughts. I only read random posts on first two pages, so forgive me if I am repeating.

1)Does barbarian DPS depend on what the two weapons he is using are? Such as, Two katanas theoretically should be the best because they are the fastest and thus should do the combo more. If not, how is attack speed determined? If determined by primary weapon then obvious best would be primary katana and secondary the slowest but most damage, which is hammer I believe?
2)I would think barbarian DPS slowly gets better than squire DPS as attack goes up. At max stats (though almost no one would legitimately get these) I would think Barbarian has higher DPS. This is because on a squire the max attack is 2712 (120+468+468+468+468+360+360, stats+armor+head+gloves+boots+weapon+pet). A barbarian gets the bonus weapon and has a max of 3072 (2712 +360, previous +bonus weapon).
3)Survivability, the longer you survive the more damage you do, so with barbarians turtle and siphon stances that might help the barbarian do more damage.
4)The first stance appears to just do low damage, doesn't seem to have a point except for movement speed. Which is covered by jump attack. So maybe fully upgraded it does a lot more damage?
5)The animus pets do damage according to your hero's damage, correct? If that involves weapons, the barbarians should be about twice the squires, because of two weapons, correct?

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Just some thoughts. I only read random posts on first two pages, so forgive me if I am repeating.

1)Does barbarian DPS depend on what the two weapons he is using are? Such as, Two katanas theoretically should be the best because they are the fastest and thus should do the combo more. If not, how is attack speed determined? If determined by primary weapon then obvious best would be primary katana and secondary the slowest but most damage, which is hammer I believe?
2)I would think barbarian DPS slowly gets better than squire DPS as attack goes up. At max stats (though almost no one would legitimately get these) I would think Barbarian has higher DPS. This is because on a squire the max attack is 2712 (120+468+468+468+468+360+360, stats+armor+head+gloves+boots+weapon+pet). A barbarian gets the bonus weapon and has a max of 3072 (2712 +360, previous +bonus weapon).
3)Survivability, the longer you survive the more damage you do, so with barbarians turtle and siphon stances that might help the barbarian do more damage.
4)The first stance appears to just do low damage, doesn't seem to have a point except for movement speed. Which is covered by jump attack. So maybe fully upgraded it does a lot more damage?
5)The animus pets do damage according to your hero's damage, correct? If that involves weapons, the barbarians should be about twice the squires, because of two weapons, correct?


1) You may do more combos but the combos would hit for less as the damage of the weapon would be less than say a slow hammer

2) You could get more but I don't believe it will make a great difference. Also you would not be getting 360 off of the extra weapon - I don't think I've ever seen one drop with that high at least, and you wouldn't be adding points in to it over the weapon's damage.

3) Siphon generally makes you take too much damage for your HP pool in NM and turtle doesn't last long enough. Squire/countess has block / bloodrage / CTA and can block while webbed where a barb loses all stances while webbed. Squire has more HP.

4) Pretty much just for movement around the map from what I can tell, or if you are fully up'd it's fun to use for non NM situations

5) "hero damage" I believe - the stat - not the damage of the weapons, so not much difference. Semi-mute point anyways as generally other pets are more useful.

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