Why all the Ninja Nerfing?

It's not farming the blasticus (there's way better ways to acquire mana and the blasticus is just a waste of time) but what stuns me is that a map that used to be "easy" is now simply one of the hardest, I can easily do Glitterhelm and Summit on NM HC but Assault simply stomps me... quite literally ;) I think the hero speed nerf was a bit of a harsh and rather rash decision. Don't you agree? I'm glad it's a way to encourage (force) people to team up for Assault but it simply smacks solo players in the face. :kobold:

Challenge maps shouldn't really be super easy in the first place though right? I do agree that the massive speed nerf is too much though. Not only is my countess reduced to base running speed, call to arms doesn't even buff speed anymore. I would be fine with just removing skill speed buffs, but stat based speed buffs is really harsh, not to mention what seems like a lower jump height, can't even jump through a snare properly anymore. Frustrating, but a good challenge none the less. Resistances are lowered to nightmare levels also it seems, at least for the assault map pack.

Hopefully there wont be every other shop with 5 pages of blasticus/new assault weapons for everyone and their grandma to have. Little tired of seeing everyone whos not using a disklauncher/bonebow whos above level 60 with the blasticus.

I do see a small nerf to apprentice tower fire rate and a nerf to weapon pojrectile speed. However I'm not seeing a measurable nerf to the damage itself and if the HP was reduced, I'm not noticing it.

just because people can't code a game better doesn't mean they may be able to better see how to balance it. fact is one should ALWAYS have outside input, as when you're working on something you tend to dismiss flaws or develop tunnel vision. you don't need to be able to code to see this nerf was over the top and imo unnecessary.

That's why I mentioned beta team in the first post. Complaining that devs do things wrong gets you nowhere as you in their shoes would likely do worse unless you are a dev yourself.

1) Pretty much the job description for a developer is to turn ideas into code...at my job thats what our developement team does...they turn other peoples ideas into code.
2) I have a very secure job...why would I go to trendy who looks to be having super failures left and right?

So if the devs are handed bad ideas, they should be blamed for implementing them?

So if the devs are handed bad ideas, they should be blamed for implementing them?

Nope its their fault for implementing them poorly. The main fault lies higher up with the people who gave them these ideas.

[...]
This leads me to> By the time you have high enough stats/resistances/weapon the Blasticus you will obtain in NM is going to be FAR inferiour compared to the equipment you need to beat the map. [...]

This fact right here -- which actually applies to the majority of Trendy's current game balancing "philosophy" -- pretty much sums up why they've snowballed the progression mechanics into a big, fat mess.

So if the devs are handed bad ideas, they should be blamed for implementing them?

I can't believe you asked that question. Well DUH! It's thrie JOB to decide the direction of the game, what is a good idea, and what is a bad idea. Take a look at the bad idea and see if there other ways to achieve the desired goal. you're damn right the developer should be held accountable for implementing a bad idea. How many times have you sworn at Bill gates or Microsoft when windows BSODed you? I am betting you held those Dev's accountable for lost data. Same thing applies here!

I myself have cussed out Bill Gates many a time. Some times it was his fault (by that I mean Microsoft's), and sometimes I was simply experiencing a temporary loss of cognitive reasoning (AKA blonde moment). Who did the world hold accountable for the debacle known as Windows ME? the programmers? Bill Gates? or the devs? Some blamed Bill Gates, not knowing he has little or nothing to do with software development anymore. It was the dev's that put forth that total mess.

BUT, did they learn? you could say that! The mistakes made in Windows ME lead dev's to develop their most stable OS to date: Windows XP. Now we are patiently awaiting to see if the Dev's at Trendy learn.

Well considering the "developers" in question here are likely also the product management team since it is a small indy developer.

Thus they have what I like to call "Tunnel vision" where they think something is awesome, code it correctly, then test it themselves and say YUP THIS IS AMAZING. While the customer/players try it and go ... what the hell just happened?

Ie not listening to customers and failing at the game.

@Highborne could not have said it better myself! Kind of funny though... I uttered those exact words when I loaded in for the first time after the patch and tried out my App towers.

I can't believe you asked that question. Well DUH! It's thrie JOB to decide the direction of the game, what is a good idea, and what is a bad idea. Take a look at the bad idea and see if there other ways to achieve the desired goal. you're damn right the developer should be held accountable for implementing a bad idea. How many times have you sworn at Bill gates or Microsoft when windows BSODed you? I am betting you held those Dev's accountable for lost data. Same thing applies here!

I myself have cussed out Bill Gates many a time. Some times it was his fault (by that I mean Microsoft's), and sometimes I was simply experiencing a temporary loss of cognitive reasoning (AKA blonde moment). Who did the world hold accountable for the debacle known as Windows ME? the programmers? Bill Gates? or the devs? Some blamed Bill Gates, not knowing he has little or nothing to do with software development anymore. It was the dev's that put forth that total mess.

BUT, did they learn? you could say that! The mistakes made in Windows ME lead dev's to develop their most stable OS to date: Windows XP. Now we are patiently awaiting to see if the Dev's at Trendy learn.

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No... no... just absolutely, NO.

Bill gates helped revolutionalize the technoligy industry as we know it, introducing this machine that can run games like this, and run an infrastructure of communucation such as the internet where me, and you (many miles apart as strangers) can connect to as humans. He has a company that employees close to 500,000 people where he actually listens to more members of his team than trendy employees. Jeremy Steigletz made a computer game based on all such techonology, and failed to inform his paying members of its timely updates. He makes the sole decision of his small company. Just don't go this way please.

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No... no... just absolutely, NO.

Bill gates helped revolutionalize the technoligy industry as we know it, introducing this machine that can run games like this, and run an infrastructure of communucation such as the internet where me, and you (many miles apart as strangers) can connect to as humans. He has a company that employees close to 500,000 people where he actually listens to more members of his team than trendy employees. Jeremy Steigletz made a computer game based on all such techonology, and failed to inform his paying members of its timely updates. He makes the sole decision of his small company. Just don't go this way please.

Interesting subject actually... The thing is we don't know who is at fault but someone is... Trendy is a smaller company so it's very possible this Jeremy guy could be handling the majority but it could be the devs and other people at fault as well. We don't know... or maybe you do know and could share with us that last comment directed at anyone reading this.

Someone or a group of people within the company of Trendy are at fault... All that really needs to be said.

I guess these were the last minute changes and "improvements" they wanted to put in on the 30th. Simple question: WHY does this happen so often, the ninja nerfes? Why? I can't live with this stealth *(@#&($, but I CAN live with an honest answer.

Interesting subject actually... The thing is we don't know who is at fault but someone is... Trendy is a smaller company so it's very possible this Jeremy guy could be handling the majority but it could be the devs and other people at fault as well. We don't know... or maybe you do know and could share with us that last comment directed at anyone reading this.

Someone or a group of people within the company of Trendy are at fault... All that really needs to be said.

What I know personally was told in trust. What I will say is public information. Trendy Entertainment employees 17 people. Jeremy Steigletz is the self acclaimed head honcho. Whether Bob or Joe messed up, Jeremy still is the one who decides that the patch looked good because Dave and Steve said so, and he trusts them with his life, even though they could secretly not give a **** about the game or Trendy, but just their paychecks. At the end, its all on Jeremy. He's said so himself. I doubt there is someone there saying dude I think we should wait to post that we nerfed the crap out of the only played class that makes 90% of the DU on every end game map. And if it wasn't his idea, he condoned it. If he didn't, well, I'm not sure whats worse - having no control over your 16 employees or too much control.

Edit; Trust me, I have serious guilt about naming 1 person for this, or even a group. But blame is blame, and trendy is NOT changing their habbits. Hes fast asleep right now dude and his company just made money in sales tonight. Don't feel bad, we invest as much of our free time in this game (some of us) as they do their work time. Its his passion (or should have been) for the injustice or awesomeness of games that made him decide to want to spend his life to create a company that makes them. I would imagine his passion for gaming exceeds mine, these atleast are my hopes.

Im somewhat low end so dont laugh at this post :/
My MM towers have gone from 1.5k to 1.1k dmg and its making it impossible to get better gear so i can even get past wave 2 of NM deeper well.
PLEASE TRENDY, if you're gonna nerf the towers then make it a dmg ramp for later on, its made it impossible to get to the later game content.
BTW i use traps and auras too, even though the traps got a retarded nerf a couple of patches ago :(

Did some testing in offline mode on my exported apprentice (with very low stats) before updating the game and did a half-assed excelsheet:

http://i.imgur.com/BD7kb.png

Conclusions:

3% nerf to all tower HP
Major nerfs to Lightning Tower attributes (chain length, max targets, range)
38% DPS nerf to Magic Missile and Lightning Tower
No DPS-nerfs to Fireball Tower and Deadly Striker Tower
26% DPS nerf to Guardian

As I said... this is with low stats (300-600) :)

patch ruined it. not only am i gonna stop playing the game, i will advice 2 of my friends who considered buying it from doing so. this is simply put retarded. Squire is still completely worthless and even though it was the plan for them to nerf Apprentice (because apparently being the only class that isnt underpowered makes you overpowered), it seems they have only amplified his power because now every other class except huntress is 200% useless.

So funny how people cry so much these days. Everyone was moaning about the patch coming out, patch comes out, even more moaning about this and that and everything else. Before nm mode came out and squire towers got nerfed into the ground, I was a bit sad as I had spent time levelling a squire and used him as a main tower builder, but I then switched to a different class and adapted to the changes.

Who cares if the changes weren't in the patch notes, I would definitely have preferred them to be in it, but get a grip and adapt. Unless these changes are some kind of bug (which could be the case with the projectile speed nerfs on weapons in nm), then either figure out a different strategy/way to play or quit the game because it's "too hard".

I think this patch is great, I haven't tried a proper nm map yet as it came out a bit too late for me last night, but just for the inclusion of the shop folders is a godsend for me. Any ninja nerfs or whatever else there is will just make me try the same old strategies or try to find new ones.

hmm this is a two edged thing here I love patch notes but hate when things aren't mentioned I'd either have a complete patch notes or non at all...

as for assault I know why it was done but I gotta say they went overboard with it, not to insult anyone at Trendy but its a recurring problem with them that they seem to want to shed but can't seem to do so. (by that I mean going overboard with buff or nerfs)

it feels like a bug... that's why a change as big as this isn't even mentioned in the patch note...

You could develop the game better? Feel free to apply for a job at Trendy to do it better then lol. People think ideas automatically turn into code when making games.

Actually, I can pretty much promise you that if Trendy made me boss for a day, I could improve this game infinitely.

First of all, yes ideas do magically turn into code. Someone comes up with something, they send a memo to their programmer monkeys and woop woop there's a new feature. I wouldn't need to know anything about programming to improve DD, I would just need someone to do it for me.

Here's a small to-do list. For the record, I'm not listing tasks by priority.

1. Remove the mana soft cap.

2. Boss/Challenge rewards buffed to an appropriate level, so someone might actually use them for endgame stuff. Also, make a minimum quality level for boss/challenge rewards so people don't get -all stats giraffes and crap like that.

3. Apprentices back to where they were yesterday, other classes buffed to a comparable level. I personally don't think all classes need to be able to solo everything like some other people in this thread, I liked the game as it was and it only takes like 2 hours to level a new hero anyway.

4. Shroomites stop giving people junk. Alternatively, give useful stuff.

5. Nightmare Survival doesn't drop "Amazing" junk. If it's going to be completely worthless it might as well just not drop. Also, drops less weapons - in return higher average quality.

6. Customizeable loot filter.

7. Instead of mana crystals disappearing seemingly randomly, mana disappears based on distance from active heroes and value.

8. A quicker upgrading system. If I was actually gonna do this I might put some thought into exactly how it would be better but I don't think I need to prove anything when saying I could make it easier than it currently is.

9. Improve aim coding. I don't know how it is for people who use first person or completely zoomed out, but in the middle setting aim is horrible. Literally every second Piercing Shot i fire goes off in some mentally challenged direction. Sometimes when I stand near walls and such my hero turns around and aims at the wall instead of where I'm trying to aim. Some times my aim just goes haywire for no apparent reason.

10. Miniguns and other ranged weapons fire from the body of the hero, regardless of their size. You may argue that bullets come out of the barrel of the gun, and to that i can only say that guns usually aren't able to stick through ninjas.

I could go on but I cba atm.

So many people on this forum who think they can do it better.

Damn right we can. Stealth nerfs are the route of the coward. Personally I have no problems if the devs decide to change things...it is their game and I am sure they have a plan in place for any change they do. However, there is no excuse for stealth nerfs. They must be hanging out with the Blizzard WoW devs...

I can't believe you asked that question. Well DUH! It's thrie JOB to decide the direction of the game, what is a good idea, and what is a bad idea. Take a look at the bad idea and see if there other ways to achieve the desired goal. you're damn right the developer should be held accountable for implementing a bad idea. How many times have you sworn at Bill gates or Microsoft when windows BSODed you? I am betting you held those Dev's accountable for lost data. Same thing applies here

No, a developers job is to develop what they are told to. There would be different teams setup to decide the direction of a project, and the developers would then make it based on specifications.

A BSOD caused by a bug in the OS is surely the developers fault. A BSOD caused by a feature implemented that is not a bug would be the design team's fault for having that feature in the OS when it clearly does not belong. If you were a dev instructed to put something into a program you did not agree with, are you going to flat out refuse and be fired? Granted, I'm sure people will listen to you if you provide a properly contsructed argument as to why it shouldn't belong, but what if they want it anyway? Still going to refuse? We'll see how long your career lasts. You're job as a developer is to develop, not design. Of course on a small team like Trendy's, one person will have many tasks, but it's still not right to blame the developer for anything but bugs unless they specifically decided on that feature themselves. Since you don't know who decided upon whatever feature you are currently complaining about, blaming them sounds unfair.

First of all, yes ideas do magically turn into code.

I'm sorry.. let me stop you there. WHAT? You're joking right? Please don't tell me you honestly have the mental capacity of a 5 year old who thinks things just magically happen on their own because their parents told them that's how it works.

No, but really. Just because you have an idea doesn't suddenly make it turn into code. Someone had to code it. Someone with more knowledge on the subject than you.

Common complaints are of bugs. Reporting bugs is fine. There's no problem with that. But insulting developers because bugs exist crosses the line. Yes, if you're going to say a dev is bad you better damn well be able to do it better otherwise you have no room to talk as you'd do no better. I wouldn't go complaining that a company isn't being run properly because I don't know how to run one myeslf. It wouldn't make sense to act like I know how it works exactly because I don't. Don't act like you can do it better because few on this forum could and the ones that can are more than likely not the ones complaining like you guys are.

Also, nice list. Anyone can suggest features/changes. Doesn't mean it's ok to be rude and insulting to people who do things beyond your knowledge just because they make a mistake. It'd be like complaining that rocket scientists can't make spaceships that can carry life forms to pluto and back. We know sure as hell you can't.

I'm sorry.. let me stop you there. WHAT? You're joking right? Please don't tell me you honestly have the mental capacity of a 5 year old who thinks things just magically happen on their own because their parents told them that's how it works.

He wasn't implying that there was literally magic existing, he's just saying that he can think of ideas and get other people to turn them into code. Are you even reading his post? RIGHT AFTER the text you quoted, he wrote that he'd get someone to code it for him. Why the **** are you defending them so avidly? Somewhere along the lines, the game got messed up, whether it be a bug or intentional (which would also mean they lied/withheld the truth from us), SOMETHING IS STILL WRONG.
All of the ideas he listed were great, and I don't know why the devs don't take more community ideas, I've seen some pretty amazing ones that would not even change the game, but improve it.

Regardless, there's nothing more we can do. The community has complained and complained and now all that's left is to wait for someone from Trendy Ent.

No, a developers job is to develop what they are told to. There would be different teams setup to decide the direction of a project, and the developers would then make it based on specifications.

A BSOD caused by a bug in the OS is surely the developers fault. A BSOD caused by a feature implemented that is not a bug would be the design team's fault for having that feature in the OS when it clearly does not belong. If you were a dev instructed to put something into a program you did not agree with, are you going to flat out refuse and be fired? Granted, I'm sure people will listen to you if you provide a properly contsructed argument as to why it shouldn't belong, but what if they want it anyway? Still going to refuse? We'll see how long your career lasts. You're job as a developer is to develop, not design. Of course on a small team like Trendy's, one person will have many tasks, but it's still not right to blame the developer for anything but bugs unless they specifically decided on that feature themselves. Since you don't know who decided upon whatever feature you are currently complaining about, blaming them sounds unfair.


I'm sorry.. let me stop you there. WHAT? You're joking right? Please don't tell me you honestly have the mental capacity of a 5 year old who thinks things just magically happen on their own because their parents told them that's how it works.

No, but really. Just because you have an idea doesn't suddenly make it turn into code. Someone had to code it. Someone with more knowledge on the subject than you.

Common complaints are of bugs. Reporting bugs is fine. There's no problem with that. But insulting developers because bugs exist crosses the line. Yes, if you're going to say a dev is bad you better damn well be able to do it better otherwise you have no room to talk as you'd do no better. I wouldn't go complaining that a company isn't being run properly because I don't know how to run one myeslf. It wouldn't make sense to act like I know how it works exactly because I don't. Don't act like you can do it better because few on this forum could and the ones that can are more than likely not the ones complaining like you guys are.

Also, nice list. Anyone can suggest features/changes. Doesn't mean it's ok to be rude and insulting to people who do things beyond your knowledge just because they make a mistake. It'd be like complaining that rocket scientists can't make spaceships that can carry life forms to pluto and back. We know sure as hell you can't.

Are you stupid or did you stop reading after the part you quoted? Learn to detect sarcasm. You seem to think programming is this super-hard profession that you need a lifetime to study. Comparing programmers to rocket scientists give me a break. Programming, like everything else, takes a little dedication and 2-5 years of school to learn. Of course, some are better at it than others and some are straight out geniuses, but that doesn't mean you need to be a genius to be a programmer. Might require a higher IQ than a carpenter though, wont deny that.

Anyway, how do you think game companies work? Do you think every branch is just it's own little solitary island that makes up stuff on its own? Do you think the guys who program the game features are the ones who come up with them? No.
There's a group of people who collaborate on coming up with ideas and sure some of these may be programmers but that's not the point. These people come up with ideas and they tell the programmers what they want. The programmers then make it happen. Exactly like I described.
I literally said "All I need is someone to do it for me", so how the hell can you spew out something as stupid as "Just because you have an idea doesn't suddenly make it turn into code. Someone had to code it. Someone with more knowledge on the subject than you." as a response? And you're trying to insult my intelligence.

If whoever is in charge of Trendy gave this list to the programmers, they could do it. The things in my list aren't bugs, they're faults and bad design. Trendy could make this happen by the next patch, however they can't release that as a separate DLC pack so they don't care.

He wasn't implying that there was literally magic existing, he's just saying that he can think of ideas and get other people to turn them into code. Are you even reading his post? RIGHT AFTER the text you quoted, he wrote that he'd get someone to code it for him. Why the **** are you defending them so avidly? Somewhere along the lines, the game got messed up, whether it be a bug or intentional (which would also mean they lied/withheld the truth from us), SOMETHING IS STILL WRONG.
All of the ideas he listed were great, and I don't know why the devs don't take more community ideas, I've seen some pretty amazing ones that would not even change the game, but improve it.

Regardless, there's nothing more we can do. The community has complained and complained and now all that's left is to wait for someone from Trendy Ent.

lol. Apparently you don't read too well yourself. It was obviously a JOKE. Jesus. Right after all that it says "No, but really". Do you know English?

Truth? The game is absolutely screwed up. It has so many problems with it right now I cannot even count on all fingers and all toes without having to borrow a few other people. Does that mean I should come on here saying "**** YOU TRENDY" or "YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED TRENDY" and the likes? What the HELL will that get me? (other than posts that should be deleted because they are neither constructive or informative). I defend Trendy only because idiots like to lash out with little clue.

Are you stupid or did you stop reading after the part you quoted? Learn to detect sarcasm. You seem to think programming is this super-hard profession that you need a lifetime to study. Comparing programmers to rocket scientists give me a break. Programming, like everything else, takes a little dedication and 2-5 years of school to learn. Of course, some are better at it than others and some are straight out geniuses, but that doesn't mean you need to be a genius to be a programmer. Might require a higher IQ than a carpenter though, wont deny that.

Anyway, how do you think game companies work? Do you think every branch is just it's own little solitary island that makes up stuff on its own? Do you think the guys who program the game features are the ones who come up with them? No.
There's a group of people who collaborate on coming up with ideas and sure some of these may be programmers but that's not the point. These people come up with ideas and they tell the programmers what they want. The programmers then make it happen. Exactly like I described.
I literally said "All I need is someone to do it for me", so how the hell can you spew out something as stupid as "Just because you have an idea doesn't suddenly make it turn into code. Someone had to code it. Someone with more knowledge on the subject than you." as a response? And you're trying to insult my intelligence.

If whoever is in charge of Trendy gave this list to the programmers, they could do it. The things in my list aren't bugs, they're faults and bad design. Trendy could make this happen by the next patch, however they can't release that as a separate DLC pack so they don't care.

Learn to detect sarcasm yourself, or perhaps go back and learn a bit of English. Read my first reply in this post if you still don't get it. I was only picking fun at the fact you happened to mention magic.

I didn't compare programmers to rocket scientists. I compared your expectations of perfection in a field you do not understand. I am quite sure you understand neither so cannot really understand how difficult either can be. You only know relatively how hard it can be based on what you'd been told. You've come to understand something like rocket science is hard, but to those who do it it may come easy. Doesn't make it easy or hard in general.

You just described what I just posted. Reiterating... why? Your mentioning of "all I need is for someone to do it for me" is equivilent of me saying "to be a millionaire all I need is for someone to make the money for me". You're complaining that someone isn't doing their job to your expectations yet you could not perform it better. My original post said to stop insulting the programmers directly just because there are bugs because you could not do it better. Your response to that is "I'll just have a programmer do it for me". Do you not see the irony in that? You're here complaining about exactly whom you'd have do the same task for you. (I think I used whom right? Sorry, don't use the word very often so it kinda passes out of memory)

Yea, programmers could do it. And should one of those ideas be implemented and it turn out bad, then we can all yell at the developers some more since it was obviously their fault that the community thought it'd be really good. Right?

Yes, if you're going to say a dev is bad you better damn well be able to do it better otherwise you have no room to talk as you'd do no better.

what?
are you serious?
you don' have to be batter at anything to be able to say it's bad or not.