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Peculiar Nightmare tower logic


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While Apprentice and Squire towers, understandably, get damage and health buffs in Nightmare, Huntress traps and Monk auras get nerfed damage, health and range. What is the logic behind this? I'd understand traps not getting buffed on an equal scale, since their HP aspect isn't comparable to App and Squire towers. I just don't get why they have to be so useless.

Auras are still useful due to their nature in the game, but I don't agree with the debuff. If they are "too big", make them scale better overall so they don't become so insanely huge in other modes. Don't just debuff them for Nightmare, indicating that their scaling got broken with the addition of Mythical gear.

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Changing the stat scaling for aura sizes now would screw over low level players, who would barely notice any change in their aura sizes as they levelled up.

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Or you could just increase the rate at which aura range falls off. Starting the change at ~300 should have absolutely no effect on newer players while keeping aura sizes sane.

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They obviously wanted people to use towers more, because on anything insane or prior, traps/auras were king. Low maintenance, you could just run around and DPS all of the time. Nightmare changed that. How would spiders be difficult if they had no towers to target/web? They would just run into traps that take up half the screen and die.

They way they scale is about right. My aura monk is fairly well geared now and the auras in nightmare are about the same size as they were when I was insane geared in insane maps.

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This may just be my opinion as someone without Mythical gear yet, but I don't agree with trap HP scaling so low. Going from 40-ish charges of a proxy trap to 14 makes them near worthless.

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Auras are still "king" on Nightmare, aren't they? There's nothing in the way of making spiders have an anti-trap or anti-aura mechanic if that's what they wanted, but you're saying there's not much of a difference from before now that you're decked in Mythical gear.

I understand that the devs wanted Nightmare to bring the tower defence back, as I understood weapons were fairly overpowered compared to tower gear earlier, even though map design requires you to use towers for the masses nonetheless. I don't mind weapons doing 1/6th their damage or whatever it is, but traps are just as much a part of tower defence strategy, but they are not a viable option. They are basically just there to be combined with a wall, but because they use 3-4 DU with their nerfed damage and range, you can just place another tower instead with its buffed damage.

To clarify about auras, I just don't agree with the Nightmare nerf to them. I'm not saying they're not usable. It would be better if they scaled smoothly and properly. I can understand the direct health nerf, as that's not directly comparable to tower health (for both auras and traps). Damage and range is comparable though.

tl;dr: An Apprentice or Squire in "Insane gear" has a better basis to enter Nightmare and clear a wave or two than the Huntress and (to a lesser extent) the Monk in equal gear. The Huntress is relatively useless if she's not already wielding a decent Nightmare weapon.

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The nerf was just too large.

With the next patch introducing the second 'spider style' enemy that attacks Auras/Traps I hope they use that as an opportunity to bring up their damage.

I don't disagree that the charges would have gone to 'don't care about the trap anymore because I have infinity charges' (though the nerf may have been too large) and certainly my monk auras when I slum in insane are a tad nuts and not intended, but the damage being that low is ridiculous. It used to be that electric aura did near-comparable damage to an electric tower, with benefits and drawbacks to both (tower had a distinct edge after the buff, but took far more maintenance and cost more DU). Now it's just sad the differential.

The following all need to be done:
Proximity Trap, Inferno Trap - Damage upgraded significantly, charges upgraded minorly
Strength Drain Aura - DR increased noticeably (right now for 6 DU it doesn't carry its weight. You could build six blockades for that, and it does NOT provide 6 blockades worth of survival. That makes it a luxury item for your builds).
Electric Aura - Damage increased

Lets not even start on what happens to the squire.

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I am perfectly okay with huntress traps getting an HP nerf in Nightmare so they have to occasionally be maintained, but going from nearly 80 charges to like, 12 is way too much. That and they don't seem to get the massive damage boost that Squire/App towers do. Instead, their reset time becomes crazy high, which whittles their low HP down even -faster-.

The Darkness Trap boost is huge and will definitely give Huntress Traps and Squire Towers a better role in Nightmare (Even though just using app walls is still a far better deal for the DU than using Spike Blockades + Darkness Trap). I think more attention needs to be paid to this, though and bring the other class' towers closer to the Apprentice's current level.

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tl;dr: An Apprentice or Squire in "Insane gear" has a better basis to enter Nightmare and clear a wave or two than the Huntress and (to a lesser extent) the Monk in equal gear. The Huntress is relatively useless if she's not already wielding a decent Nightmare weapon.


You've just stated the very first lesson the game teaches - App and Squire are easier to level with first and huntress/monk are more advanced (relying more on a team or other characters etc). It states that during the character selection screen clearly.

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[...] huntress/monk are more advanced (relying more on a team or other characters etc). It states that during the character selection screen clearly.


While it can be easy to state this in hindsight, the difficulty levels of each character does not really explain anything, and I am sure they existed before Nightmare was added (I am a fairly new player, so that's a guess). What I understood about the difficulties were that Apprentice has traditional towers and is a ranged class with no reload, Squire has more advanced towers and is a melee class, Huntress doesn't have traditional towers (no walls, mainly burst damage) and is a ranged class with reload, and Monk is (primarily) a melee class with no traditional towers (no walls, mainly debuffs).

You'd think it's going to be harder to play a melee class without traditional towers, but that is less related to the issue above. I'm not expecting Monks to be able to solo HCNM MM dressed in Mythical gear, and I don't see why Apprentice towers shouldn't be able to handle HCNM on their own, but the nerfs mentioned above are badly implemented, in my opinion.

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[QUOTE]You've just stated the very first lesson the game teaches - App and Squire are easier to level with first and huntress/monk are more advanced (relying more on a team or other characters etc). It states that during the character selection screen clearly. [/QUOTE]

That statement at the beginning of the game refers to how simple they are to learn. That should have no bearing whatsoever on whether or not their traps/auras are competitive for completing the endgame difficulty.

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Guys, traps nerf and 1/6 of hero damage - its obvious that they just wanted to destroy huntress as a playable character. Simple, huh? Monk is not very popular either, so instead of buffing him, they nerfed him. But hey, there is a tought-as-wall squire, lets buff him some more?[QUOTE]An Apprentice or Squire in "Insane gear" has a better basis to enter Nightmare and clear a wave or two than the Huntress and (to a lesser extent) the Monk in equal gear. The Huntress is relatively useless if she's not already wielding a decent Nightmare weapon. [/QUOTE]So very true.

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That statement at the beginning of the game refers to how simple they are to learn. That should have no bearing whatsoever on whether or not their traps/auras are competitive for completing the endgame difficulty.


W/e don't pick the 'advanced' class then cry that the 'novice' class is easier to use. Am I right or am I right?

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W/e don't pick the 'advanced' class then cry that the 'novice' class is easier to use. Am I right or am I right?


You are completely missing the mark and quite possibly trolling, so you (and others) should leave the subject of difficulties unless it comes with some actual insight on the matter in OP. Further posts in a similar voice will be reported.

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While Apprentice and Squire towers, understandably, get damage and health buffs in Nightmare, Huntress traps and Monk auras get nerfed damage, health and range. What is the logic behind this? I'd understand traps not getting buffed on an equal scale, since their HP aspect isn't comparable to App and Squire towers. I just don't get why they have to be so useless.

Auras are still useful due to their nature in the game, but I don't agree with the debuff. If they are "too big", make them scale better overall so they don't become so insanely huge in other modes. Don't just debuff them for Nightmare, indicating that their scaling got broken with the addition of Mythical gear.


logic is that they were BROKEN

when i started playing i joined a random alch lab and thought WTF is this ****

a guy with 1 aura was covering the whole map and 2 traps were kiling everyhthing and their moms

it just made no sense, auras needed a nerf, only problem is that they removed some decent scaling thats really bad

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You are completely missing the mark and quite possibly trolling, so you (and others) should leave the subject of difficulties unless it comes with some actual insight on the matter in OP. Further posts in a similar voice will be reported.


For the record I'm replying to this quote not the original post.

Anyway, first off, don't threaten people. You will never get what you want and it lacks class. If you think I should be reported then go ahead and report me. If not, buck up and have a conversation.

Secondly, I understand your point. And I was pointing out that Trendy understood it too. You think that monk/huntress are necessarily more difficult classes to play than squire/apprentice. I think that was made clear from the beginning of the game during character selection.

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It seems like going from insane to nightmare they were trying to do the balance they missed out on for the base version of the game, its still a little strange that anything outside of an app tower setup is making your life harder then in needs to be, but I have still managed to solo at least 2-3 waves on all 4 characters before I got 74.

It seems like the game is balanced from a perspective of assuming you have all four characters at your disposal, and if my trap/aura characters were at 74 or better geared, I would probably incorporate more traps/auras (To larger success) in many of my map setups, my biggest problem at the moment is time constraints: to set up a more complicated strategy I would need to be playing on Survival or Pure Strategy, so most of my builds are limited by the time factor. I frankly have no idea how some people manage to switch characters to drop 6-10 auras/traps and still make it back to the forge in time.

I also have absolutely no idea why squire hp is so high, its pretty nuts that in my non upgraded gear I have over 110k hp, when my apprentice has barely 15k in a set of stuff upgraded 50 times.

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Proximity mine traps are still the best AOE dps in the game / defense unit in nightmare. The balancing factor is that they cannot overlap (like tower fire can). This means that they will always be part of an overall strategy not the main defense.

Do not forget that you can use apprentice guardians to buff your auras to near Insane difficulty stats.

Finally, If monk auras were as effective in NM as they were in Insane there would be no need to get better monk gear. 300 tower dmg skill would be sufficient.

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1) Hunter and mage (whatever gender) are the 2 most used classes in nightmare
2) I think its funny we have a thread about how great squires are in nightmare and how bad the huntress is...as its actually backwards from how it really is
3) Monks normally toss down their auras and switch to another class unless you are 4manning something

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[QUOTE]W/e don't pick the 'advanced' class then cry that the 'novice' class is easier to use. Am I right or am I right? [/QUOTE]

No, no you're not. You're not even arguing the right subject. So you are exceptionally, glaringly wrong.

Even though a class is advanced, it should still be able to compete at the endgame. You should be able to look at a huntress trap and say 'I can use that somewhere', not 'why is this not an apprentice tower'.

[QUOTE]1) Hunter and mage (whatever gender) are the 2 most used classes in nightmare
2) I think its funny we have a thread about how great squires are in nightmare and how bad the huntress is...as its actually backwards from how it really is
3) Monks normally toss down their auras and switch to another class unless you are 4manning something [/QUOTE]

This thread isn't about personal dps, which the squire and huntress bring in spades. Nor is it about survivability, which the squire is currently top dog at. It's about their towers.

Monk at least has the Strength Drain and Ensnare auras, being situational enough and effective enough to utilize. Nothing else they or a Huntress can do tower-wise can even begin to compete with an apprentice. Doesn't that bother you?

Only one class being able to build effectively for Nightmare is a huge balance problem. The other class' towers need to be brought in line.

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don't threaten people


You were warned. It didn't matter who you were replying to. You added nothing to the discussion and you came in here with a "I am right and you are wrong" attitude. You were the one not discussing anything, which always comes across as trolling when it has no good point behind it.

You think that monk/huntress are necessarily more difficult classes to play than squire/apprentice. I think that was made clear from the beginning of the game during character selection.


What you're missing, which is the most important part, is that I and others in this thread don't want Monk and Huntress to become easier to play. We don't want them buffed overall. They are arguably harder to play because of differences in play style, and their in-game difficulty labels are a result of that. They are not difficulty modes for the game, such as Insane and Nightmare are. It's not much harder for a Monk to kill an ogre than it is for an Apprentice, if approached correctly.

This thread is about the debuff in Nightmare. If it was about the character difficulties, this would be reflected in e.g. Insane as well, which it is not. The debuff for traps and auras are badly implemented, and I argue that it should scale properly. E.g. an aura in Insane not covering 1/3 Alchemy labs at 600+ range.

I could understand the debuff if it was for everyone, but Apprentice and Squire get buffs to their towers. This is understandable, as the point was to make towers more useful in comparison to hero DPS at each point, but traps and electric auras are completely useless in comparison due to this. If the devs want these to have spider-disadvantages as well, add a spider mechanic for them, so players have to kill spiders manually. Don't just make those defences outright useless for Nightmare.

It seems like the game is balanced from a perspective of assuming you have all four characters at your disposal, and if my trap/aura characters were at 74 or better geared, I would probably incorporate more traps/auras (To larger success) in many of my map setups


I agree with this sentiment. Auras and traps are mainly a multiplayer support building. But their DU does not warrant using them for damage over towers in Nightmare.

Proximity mine traps are still the best AOE dps in the game / defense unit in nightmare. The balancing factor is that they cannot overlap (like tower fire can). This means that they will always be part of an overall strategy not the main defense.


Proxy mines are never used in Nightmare. Their damage goes down by a lot and it's better to have towers in most cases, and they are only used as a temporary defence if anything. In various challenges (MF) they are useful due to their mechanic, but that's beside the point of the thread. In those cases, they would be relatively useful even if they did 1/20th damage.

Finally, If monk auras were as effective in NM as they were in Insane there would be no need to get better monk gear. 300 tower dmg skill would be sufficient.


My point with the range issue is to scale it better. There's no need for the Monk (or others) to get such ranges in Insane and lower.

1) Hunter and mage (whatever gender) are the 2 most used classes in nightmare


They are used as DPS classes, because they are ranged and already have great mythical weapons. Their DPS is pretty good, as is the other classes, but being ranged with focused projectiles is a big plus. Also, DT might be a bit overpowered in that aspect, but the thread is about a different issue. Monk can do range when needed, and Squire has a lot of HP to try and counter the range issue, but it's very understandable that people still prefer to be a flat out ranged class.

If what you say was the case, debuffing their defences in Nightmare would not "balance" the issue at all.

2) I think its funny we have a thread about how great squires are in nightmare and how bad the huntress is...as its actually backwards from how it really is


My Countess does perfectly fine in Nightmare, in mediocre Mythical gear. I do agree that their DU usage is a bit over the top, but their towers are very good when used properly. Squire is much more advanced than apprentice, and much more chaotic in Nightmare. Just because people prefer Apprentices and set up builds for your Apprentice does not mean the Squire is "useless" in Nightmare. He's far from it.

3) Monks normally toss down their auras and switch to another class unless you are 4manning something


No one argues that. You may say the same about Apprentices and Squires (although you generally don't want that in Nightmare due to the tower buff). You don't, however, say that about Huntresses, which is mainly the switching-to-class.

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This thread is about the debuff in Nightmare. If it was about the character difficulties, this would be reflected in e.g. Insane as well, which it is not. The debuff for traps and auras are badly implemented, and I argue that it should scale properly. E.g. an aura in Insane not covering 1/3 Alchemy labs at 600+ range.


This was from your post and was what I originally replied to.

"tl;dr: An Apprentice or Squire in "Insane gear" has a better basis to enter Nightmare and clear a wave or two than the Huntress and (to a lesser extent) the Monk in equal gear. The Huntress is relatively useless if she's not already wielding a decent Nightmare weapon."

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The logic is that monk and huntress towers now are more for support app/Squire towers, dont play insane in nm. I dont know why people make this kind of thread.

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Auras maybe scaled down on all maps and the boost per stat modified so they aren't as small in nm but so they don't get as big as before.

Also, keep it on topic... all of you. You can disagree without having to send me reports because you disagree

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Simplest fix i see to this is to nerf app towers. They seem much to strong in every single mode. Why not make the game harder instead of buffing other classes to make it easier?

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