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For People Stuck Between Insane and Nightmare...


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What drives you to continue playing?

I know the topic has been brought up countless times, but as I finally Myth geared my first hero it suddenly dawned on me how pointless it all is having to grind to upgrade it all, how the progression at this point is so broken it's dumb-founding. This game was so fun and simple enough starting out with clear and logical progression, but I honestly think this game has been FUBAR'd in its current state. I truly regret pre-ordering all 4 parts of the Eternia Shards because it's essentially going to be more of the same with (according to Trendy) more deadly / annoying enemies than spiders being introduced.

I find it a little silly that the difficulties don't scale with the best hero's (in the case of a multiplayer session) stats in any shape or form, only changing the wave amounts based on player numbers.

I suppose I got my money's worth out of this game and I can only hope Trendy makes better decisions with their next title.

Not a whining thread, just an opinion and my question still stands.

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There was never a point where I got stuck between Insane and Nightmare. In fact I still haven't finished with Insane (Mistymire, a couple of challenges left) but am making good progress through Nightmare.

Plus I don't think I've ever grinded out of necessity. I've done Glitterhelm far too many times, but only for achievements like Group Hug. I've only done Survival maps a few times and even then, never gotten past wave 20. Achievements like the Pure Strat one and Mastermind again, are a little grindy, but in terms of how I've progressed my main level 74 characters, I just play nightmare with a friend of mine, sell the loots, steadily get slightly better loot and just upgrade from there. I've yet to encounter this legendary 'Brick wall of no-progress-only-grinding' that a lot of people seem to imagine.

Maybe different people have different opinions of what constitutes as 'grinding' and what is simply re-playing a map a couple times. I've played the same Left 4 Dead 2 campaigns hundreds of times, but at no point is it a 'grind'. I've played the same songs on Rock Band 3 tons of times but again, it isn't a grind. If you don't want to re-play and improve to progress in the game, then this isn't your type of game.

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I'm with you on this Dex. I've found that there is quite a substantial grind moving from insane campaign to nightmare, at least if you play the levels in order and don't just skip to the end maps first and you don't farm insane survival. The only progression guide I've seen recommends jumping right to the end of the campaign. If you do that then perhaps you are looting things sufficiently valuable to upgrade your gear in a reasonable amount of time, however if you start out on Nightmare Deeper Wells (the proper order of progression) and you aren't able to finish the map then the gear that you get is bad (the resistance of most pieces is under 10% in every category for me at least), the value is low, and it has a lot of upgrade slots that you cant afford to upgrade without looting a lot of loot.

If I play Nightmare Deeper Wells I will loot an armor with 35 upgrade slots. To upgrade it 35 times it probably costs 4 million mana per piece, however the loot I am getting from Nightmare Deeper wells is worth about 10k per piece on average possibly (probably an overestimate, but its easy to calculate). 4 million / 10k = 400. So I have to loot 1600 pieces of loot to upgrade one suit of armor and I get about 20 pieces of loot before I fail in wave 3 because there are two ogres at once. The alternative for me is to go farm some map like Glitterhelm hard or Ramparts insane which is far more profitable, but still I end up having to run it 10 or more times to upgrade all that gear. This will allow me to finish a level which still won't give a good mana return. I get to the next level, get some further upgrades then its... more farming for mana. Farm farm farm farm farm farm farm. And still Glitterhelm hard will produce more mana than Nightmare mode is. Eventually Nightmare mode will start to produce enough money to upgrade the gear you loot in a more reasonable amount of time, but not until you are playing hardcore or survival or have advanced at least half way through the campaign probably.

The economic progression is totally broken and only by "cheating" and skipping to the end to get the powerful loot first is it in any way pleasant to upgrade. Naturally the guys that jump to the end don't see it as a problem since the equipment upgrade cost ramp is capped at somewhere around the epic level, so by the time you are getting super high-end gear it is valuable enough to upgrade your gear more quickly and if you start at or near the end you won't have to repeatedly upgrade your equipment and spend all that mana again and again to improve your gear.

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I'm basically at the grind/farm only point of NM. My only feasible route of progression is to just grind away to get my monk to 74 so that he can be of use in NM and then it is just a matter of more farming of NM misty for the top end gear so that I can push one wave closer to finishing it. I've basically lost all interest in doing so. My time is far too valuable now so I'd rather not spend my little free time doing what amounts to more work in the day. I plan to devote more time to my regular work or pick up another game until Trendy decides to fix things.

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Seeing as how the NM experience is most likely intended for the super rich (Mana wise), I don't fiddle around on it much unless I suddenly desire to catch an *** whipping.
I'm truly stuck, my main character too strong for insane, too weak for nightmare. So, instead, I've chosen to abandon my squire, since the community likes to tell me squires are useless. I'm play on a monk right now, and things are going swimmingly again. Insane is hard again and I'm getting kicked from every other room i join because i'm level 73. I also started to play around on a huntress and am enjoying that. But over all, this game has hit rock bottom. A toxic mixture of a bad community and bad developers leads to extreme disinterest in playing for me. IDK what keeps me going, honestly. I guess it's the loot aspect. however, the more i play insane, the less green dots show up. One day soon i'm gonna abandon DD completely unless more content comes out that i can access.

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[QUOTE]I truly regret pre-ordering all 4 parts of the Eternia Shards because it's essentially going to be more of the same with (according to Trendy) more deadly / annoying enemies than spiders being introduced.[/QUOTE]Thank you for sharing this info. I will not pre-order it now. And I will tell everyone I know not to pre-order it.

Yanahma
It looks like all ponys are same across the internets. Wearing pink glasses until reality hits you with sledgehammer and then spamming all the forum/board over that ALL iS LOST.

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I didn't have this issue going from Insane to Nightmare, and I transitioned without being one of the uber-rich - or even having that great items. The real trick is just that you need to beat one wave of a stage, and you've got a foothold.

The main requirements to getting started in NM to me:

  • A decent genie - something with over 1000 attack power should be enough, but as much as possible up to 2-3k will make getting mana easier.
  • A level 74 apprentice. This is the easiest way to get started, tbh. To do this, Glitterhelm Caverns until then... other stuff can be done to level but will take longer. Other classes can be used, but starting with your App is probably best, because, well, Nightmare boosts him in pretty much every way.
  • An Apprentice Guardian with 20 boost or more and as many upgrades as possible so it can effect as many towers as possible.. Not too hard to get one of these, just do some stages on Insane until it appears in the stop, or complete Hard Summit until you can get one. This will make killing ogres and such MUCH better.
  • Willingness to adapt to spiders - put simply, all chokepoints need to face both directions, and cover each other... once you have this in mind, although they are ridiculous, spiders because much less of an issue, because until survival, the effect of them is mostly mental. If you're constantly moving, you'll dodge most spider webs. Keep in mind, you don't need to even touch them - that's towers are for, just keep yourself alive.
  • Getting used to the idea that your Guardian pet is more useful than you are. Your main purpose is to support your towers. Get to the towers that are shooting an ogre so that your pet can boost them, and repair the barricades the ogre is attacking. Your own damage is minimal compared to the bonus your support will give.


The worst part is getting to 74 (repeated Glitterhelm caverns is the best way, and grabbing an XP boost every level up) - once you've got one 74, once you've beaten one wave, your gear quality will skyrocket. Nightmare Endless spires is a great place to go for easy wave completion. I highly recommend the first 74 to be an apprentice, as you can do a pure apprentice setup on Nightmare Endless Spires fairly easy with Insane-ish stats and an Apprentice Guardian.

Some more specific stuff:

[quote]I've found that there is quite a substantial grind moving from insane campaign to nightmare, at least if you play the levels in order and don't just skip to the end maps first and you don't farm insane survival[/quote]

The main problem here is that the assumption is that the oreder of the stages is their intended difficulty range. The best way to look it that is is like the challenges - some of them are much easier, even though they're not in the first half of the game. For example, "No Towers Allowed" [Deeper Well] and "Zippy Terror" are really quite difficult, and effectively impossible solo.... but they're low level challenges. Endless Spires is pretty much the easiest one of the Nightmare stages, in the same way that stages like Assault [Endless Spires] (best example, as it's the same stage...) or Ogre Crush are easier than other Challenges.

[QUOTE]Seeing as how the NM experience is most likely intended for the super rich (Mana wise), I don't fiddle around on it much unless I suddenly desire to catch an *** whipping.[/QUOTE]

[quote]And still Glitterhelm hard will produce more mana than Nightmare mode is. [/quote]

Nightmare is the way to become super rich - once you get the right stuff to get into it, you can pull well over 100mil from Mistymire Campaign, and even more if you're selling to other players. I regularly get 15million from the final wave of Endless Spires, as well, and individual items even on the first wave of Spires chests will automatically sell to the tavern for over 1.5million each. Hard/Insane Glitterhelm aint even close.

Once you complete Spires, you have a chance of great Guardians appearing that you can sell for a couple of hundred million in the forums... or use to beat harder stages.

[QUOTE]I truly regret pre-ordering all 4 parts of the Eternia Shards because it's essentially going to be more of the same with (according to Trendy) more deadly / annoying enemies than spiders being introduced.
[/QUOTE]

The thing to keep in mind, is that there will infact be /less/ spiders, as the special spawns that occur are going to involve all four enemies from what I've read. Rather than increase the number of these spawns, they're going to be a spread of the four types.

[QUOTE]My only feasible route of progression is to just grind away to get my monk to 74 so that he can be of use in NM and then it is just a matter of more farming of NM misty for the top end gear so that I can push one wave closer to finishing it. [/QUOTE]

Just to check, are you using a 20+ or 40+ boost Apprentice Guardian as your pet for your active character in Misty? If you're running to the chokes with Ogres with any level apprentice guardian, it becomes much easier. If you're beating the early stages, it doesn't really get a lot more difficult between stages as long as the ogres are taken down, and the barricades constantly repaired.

If any of you want me to show you how to run some of the NM stages, [esp spires] drop me a messsage on the forums with your SteamID and I'll help you out / show you / run you through once or twice, depending.

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The main problem here is that the assumption is that the oreder of the stages is their intended difficulty range. The best way to look it that is is like the challenges - some of them are much easier, even though they're not in the first half of the game. For example, "No Towers Allowed" [Deeper Well] and "Zippy Terror" are really quite difficult, and effectively impossible solo.... but they're low level challenges. Endless Spires is pretty much the easiest one of the Nightmare stages, in the same way that stages like Assault [Endless Spires] (best example, as it's the same stage...) or Ogre Crush are easier than other Challenges.


Ok so if the order is supposed to be different then why does worse gear drop on Nightmare Deeper Wells than Nightmare Endless Spires? Easier content should drop weaker gear and harder content should drop better gear. If Endless Spires is supposed to be the entry point to nightmare, why would it make the loot in most of the other nightmare campaign irrelevant? It seems pretty obvious that the entry point is not supposed to be Endless Spires and the fact that people think that is the entry point is proof that the progression is broken.

Nightmare is the way to become super rich - once you get the right stuff to get into it, you can pull well over 100mil from Mistymire Campaign, and even more if you're selling to other players. I regularly get 15million from the final wave of Endless Spires, as well, and individual items even on the first wave of Spires chests will automatically sell to the tavern for over 1.5million each. Hard/Insane Glitterhelm aint even close.


I said this in the post you were responding to. You must reach the later maps of the nightmare campaign before you get enough out of it to encourage anything except farming Glitterhelm some more. Once you do reach there you can upgrade your gear much easier because now instead of equipment being on average worth 10k per item they may be 50k+ on average. There's only supposed to be three Nightmare campaign maps after Endless Spires: Summit, Glitterhelm, and Mistymore. If someone needs to farm any of these to make content before them pleasant then the game is in need of repair. Certainly none of those should come before Deeper Wells which provides rewards that pale by comparison.

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Ok so if the order is supposed to be different then why does worse gear drop on Nightmare Deeper Wells than Nightmare Endless Spires? Easier content should drop weaker gear and harder content should drop better gear. If Endless Spires is supposed to be the entry point to nightmare, why would it make the loot in most of the other nightmare campaign irrelevant? It seems pretty obvious that the entry point is not supposed to be Endless Spires and the fact that people think that is the entry point is proof that the progression is broken.


No doubt that progression is not logical into Nightmare. I agree strongly with you that it doesn't make much sense that it is the way it is, but the order that the stages are listed is not the order of difficulty. This is even the case in some of the easier difficulties. For example, Ramparts has always been a very very easy stage, even though it's rated as the third? (not in DD atm, somewhere around there though) last, so it was regularly the first stage I played on a difficulty upgrade. It was no different for me this time, as this was the first stage I completed in Nightmare. It is very possible to beat earlier stages, but Spires has the best "Easyness" to "Awesome Loot" ratio. I beat Deeper Wells and then Endless Spires, and then the rest of Campaign after that. Progression is not logical, but isn't broken until you're trying to beat Campaign Misty, which is more of an issue with a bit of an overly hard boss.

[quote]I said this in the post you were responding to. You must reach the later maps of the nightmare campaign before you get enough out of it to encourage anything except farming Glitterhelm some more. Once you do reach there you can upgrade your gear much easier because now instead of equipment being on average worth 10k per item they may be 50k+ on average. There's only supposed to be three Nightmare campaign maps after Endless Spires: Summit, Glitterhelm, and Mistymore. If someone needs to farm any of these to make content before them pleasant then the game is in need of repair. Certainly none of those should come before Deeper Wells which provides rewards that pale by comparison.[/QUOTE]

The best (i.e. fastest or most effecient) progression does not necessarily mean beating every stage in order - and this hasn't changed that much between difficulties. I didn't start at deeper wells when I started doing Insane after finishing on Hard, as the exp and items wasn't worth doing it at that difficulty. There was nothing stopping me, but it wouldn't get any easier, as the loot would be terrible. There's nothing too wrong with this, in my opinion.

My main message is that the progression is not worth going through every stage individual or that logical, but if you're willing to adapt, there's a pretty contigous upward path until you have 1000 tower stats, and once you reach that point, you're much better off waiting until more content comes out (the other three DLC) before really going into survival, as those stages are likely to have even better loot in them (and their survivals).

If you really want to go through easier stages to make it easier, it can be done with more steps by going earlier - such as the Alch Labs for a few stages, and then Ramparts, but what's the point? People go to Spires because it's both easy AND valuable, not one or the other. (Deeper Wells and others being relatively easy, but unrewarding, and Mistymire being harder but more valuable)

Most of the stages are viable depending on what you like to do, but there's little reason to make it take longer.

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Seeing as how the NM experience is most likely intended for the super rich (Mana wise), I don't fiddle around on it much unless I suddenly desire to catch an *** whipping.
I'm truly stuck, my main character too strong for insane, too weak for nightmare. So, instead, I've chosen to abandon my squire, since the community likes to tell me squires are useless. I'm play on a monk right now, and things are going swimmingly again. Insane is hard again and I'm getting kicked from every other room i join because i' m level 73. I also started to play around on a huntress and am enjoying that. But over all, this game has hit rock bottom. A toxic mixture of a bad community and bad developers leads to extreme disinterest in playing for me. IDK what keeps me going, honestly. I guess it's the loot aspect. however, the more i play insane, the less green dots show up. One day soon i'm gonna abandon DD completely unless more content comes out that i can access.


Once you clear the campaign on Insane you should be able to start farming Nightmare Survival (At least to wave 12-14 or so) on a lot of the maps, you can use this to farm gear to work through the nightmare campaign. It's not easy, though it will get easier as you get more gear, you will still die often even once you're geared with the best you can get. There are always new things to learn and that's probably what keeps you going in this game.

Not to mention, the "bad community" really applies to -every- game out there ATM :p

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lol. In other games, I don't get kicked because I have "ger dat sux lol"
Dungeon Defenders has a SUPER BAD community. Most of the time when I join a nightmare game, I get kicked, despite having full mythical gear and 190kDPS. People say squire is useless, so I level my monk up to 74. NOW I'm being told that EVERYTHING is useless unless it's an apprentice. bad community is bad when they can't even figure out what the game is about.

Onto my main point- Most of the people in this game that are running NM are doing so with a set of rules. Rules being that you're 74, have above 100kdps (for the most part) and gear with max resists and good stats. To get those really good items, you'll have to do NM mode or buy them from a shop. But if you're getting kicked from every game because you have bad gear, where lies the problem? The system itself of course.
The jump in differences in stats between Godly and Mythical items can be staggering and gamebreaking. That's effectively what happened. What used to be endgame equips are now midgame and laughed at by the rich.


That and because TE wants to monetize this game so bad, I think I'll stop playing again for a month or two. Come back see how it's doing.

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- I also think kicking ppl under lvl74 is kinda stupid as how else are they supposed to get stuff or learn.

I'm quite happy to have some under level 74s play with me on nm maps and it's surprising that thy don't die that often!! Maybe 2-3 times a wave but they really learn quick and most ppl don't give lower levels enough credit.

Granted, there are some levels where high dps is a must or certain stats etc are needed. If so, I don't understand why those ppl can't just ask nicely and tell the joiners that they won't be able to help and should leave or be kicked - instead of talking to each other as tho u don't exist and kicking u lol.

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Granted, there are some levels where high dps is a must or certain stats etc are needed. If so, I don't understand why those ppl can't just ask nicely and tell the joiners that they won't be able to help and should leave or be kicked - instead of talking to each other as tho u don't exist and kicking u lol.


When you have time limited stages, it's fair enough to kick someone without a reason. It's quite possible to get someone under level 73 who's useful (especially if they have a good(20boost, 4+ towers) or great (40boost, 5 towers) )guardian equipped) but generally they're going to make the stage harder. I might also say, that most people are (or should be) using hardcore to get better loot. If they die 2-3 times per wave... well.... that just means more enemies without any extra help.

People are well within their rights to kick you - they are hosting the game, so they get to decide who they play with, even if the people joining are stronger than they are. If you want stronger control over who you play with, you should host your games.

I'm not saying that the game shouldn't have better ways of kicking that let people know whey they've been kicked, but expecting people to take up short build phase timers in writing text is unreasonable. Most of this thread is complaining about difficulty in going up to Nightmare. This is also part of the reason why many people get kicked - more difficulty, less room for error from people you don't know.

Like I said earlier though, I'm happy to show people the ropes through these stages if they send me a message.

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Once you clear the campaign on Insane you should be able to start farming Nightmare Survival (At least to wave 12-14 or so) on a lot of the maps, you can use this to farm gear to work through the nightmare campaign. It's not easy, though it will get easier as you get more gear, you will still die often even once you're geared with the best you can get. There are always new things to learn and that's probably what keeps you going in this game.


Speaking as someone that's cleared all of Insane campaign, I'm actually having quite a bit of difficulty doing anything beyond the first wave in most Nightmare maps. Considering I have to clear them in campaign before even attempting survival, I'm a bit confused by this advice, and I'd like to know what stage you think I should focus on first.

Admittedly, I'm not 74 quite yet, so things may change quite a bit when I can put on Mythical gear, but I still don't see how going from Insane campaign to Nightmare survival (especially that high) would work...

As for the difficulty level, the problem is that, while there's a few small spikes throughout the campaign, going from start to finish is generally a very smooth, linear progression path within a difficulty level. Sure, some of the earlier levels on a higher difficulty are easier than the later ones on a lower difficulty, but that's acceptable. Once you reach Nightmare though, all conventional thinking vanishes (Ogres on wave 1 Deeper Well?), which is why there's such a challenge here.

(Plus, spiders. Goddamn spiders.)

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You don't actyally have to complete all waves on level.
Start alch, spires, misty HC, build some towers, survive wave 1 - its pretty easily if you gear not complete crap, loot chests - get some myth, see if you can survive next wave... then next one... another one, and so on.
when you have myth decent equip, then you can begin with exploring tacticts and whatever
Leveling to 74 seems like a serious drag to me.

true. level 70 is really fast, then things start to get booooring with hard/insane glit

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@OP the reason I keep playing is the reason I kept playing when I was stuck between medium and hard, then hard and insane. It's a challenge and accomplishment to get from one level to the next. You learn a great deal too.

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I'll throw in my experience so far since I found myself in the same boat. Soloed my way up to Magus Quarters NM, got stuck trying to kill the Demon Lord on Alch' Labs. Decided to grind some gear out of Endless Spire/Mistymire, then realized I'd have to finish leveling my characters to 74. Well, I've got my Huntress to 74 and that's it. Part-way doing the rest of the runs with splitscreen, I literally found myself falling asleep while playing the game. Tried motivating myself by thinking about all those awesome pieces of armor I could, but then realized I'd have to spend hours grinding billions to get anywhere close to completing Nightmare. In the end, I lost the drive to play the game. It's been almost a couple weeks since I've fired it up.

The fun and appeal of the original game got buried under exponentially massive grinds and time-sinks. After advancing difficulties, I miss learning how to go from one hero's defenses to incorporating the defenses of all four heroes or creatively placing the odd-ball towers for amazing results. Now, gameplay's regressed to very specific strategies and pets since it's become apparent that only the Apprentice's defenses are strong enough to get through Nightmare campaign maps. Save for Ensnare auras, other heroes' defenses are a major liability.

I'm no-where geared enough or at max level to be joining public NM games without getting the boot -- not that I saw very many in the first place when I last loaded Dungeon Defenders -- not to mention the rampant exposure of hacked items and mana circulating through Ranked Play. Unless you strictly play solo or only with trusted friends, there's a good chance your gameplay experience/progression has probably been tainted with people running around with modified items. And unfortunately, Nightmare's hardly balanced around solo play. I see people dismissing the XP grind with unrealistic statements like, "Oh it's only a few hours, it's only a couple runs." It blows my mind to think how getting 15 million XP in a couple runs or a couple hours of anything is legitimately possible, though I wouldn't be surprised if most of these testimonies are coming from people who took advantage of the first 70-74 XP curve of something around 4-million when 7.15 first launched and before it was quickly patched.

Then of course there are level cap increases in the next parts. Have you seen the XP requirements for 75 already? 9 million XP, more than half the grind from 70-74. I'd be surprised if 74-76 was anything less than 25 million XP. That's 100 million for 4 characters, 125 if you're also rolling a Barbarian. I try to provide some constructive criticism to issues I see with games, but I'll just be blunt and say hell no, I'm not grinding that much XP. That's just not fun in any way, shape, or form. Doesn't matter if you're 'hardcore' or 'casual', grinding is not entertaining. Gating game content through intentional grinds only segregates the community's players and causes some to lose interest entirely.

I'll most likely fire up DD again to mess around with the Barbarian and the other Lost Shards maps since I've already paid for them, but I doubt I'll go any further than finishing them on Insane. I keep watching patch notes for something to drag me back in, but I barely see anything that catches my interest. Seems to be mostly tweaks and perks for the players that've already 100%ed the new stuff rather than addressing the issues that are losing players.

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the insane to nightmare progression is really not that difficult; i thought it was when i tried doing deeper wells (too lol, i still dont think ive completed it) but smarter players than I came up with ways to farm equipment/mana quickly and efficiently.

Right now, the only place i see progression hindered is mistymireboss/post mistymire campaign, where players like mirradin and ceeimir(sp?) got stuck; and only in respect of the fact that it is 100% impossible to complete solo with mistymire campaign gear. whether or not its doable with wave25 drops of alchlabs/ramparts etc i do not know..nor do i have 10-12 hours of time to spend in one day finding out. Even if i did, chances are an ogre would bug over my wall, kill half my turrets and 1 shot me and i would die on wave 21 with all of my defences at full hp, or steam would bug, or i would disconnect for .4 of a second, or my dd would crash, or dd would decide to update....

Sadly, if people are stuck at other places in the game there is only one solution, because there is only one class that can truly solo any nightmare mission, and that is an apprentice/initiate; anything else and you might as well give up. the balance between tower characters and dps chars in this game is pretty horrible..i dont really understand why a tower char can solo but a dps char stands no chance.

that said, anyone struggling to "make it onto the nightmare ladder" as it were can inbox me/add me to steam and i'll see what i have lying around/how I can help

--

ps. in terms of game kicking and community, i would have to echo above sentiments that this community is in general, awful. lack of sharing/most people playing in private groups of 2-3 people (anymore than that and the difficulty scaling of nightmare is horrendously unbalanced), single nationality only games..

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1) level to 74. No really. Stop joining nightmare at 71. What are you doing? You can't even equip nightmare gear. You get that? You can't equip the gear. WHAT ARE YOU DOING?

2) if you're dps that's okay. Get out a genie or apprentice/huntress guardian and upgrade/ repair/buff/damage. I'll let you in my game. Stop running in a giant circle with your blasticus for 2 minutes until you get webbed and DEWed to death. This. DoeS. Nothing.

3) goddamn it stop dying. Dont make me resurrect the term huntard. Cause I will.

4) for the love of god do not bring out your 68 apprentice to 'help' me build. Or build ****ty squire towers. If you want to join someone else's game don't tell me how bounced blockades are the **** because they're walls that dps. They cost 400 DU each.

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I think the problem is this game presents itself as "casual" with the cartoony graphics and light humor.

However, the late game is catered towards "hardcore" players. A lot of the people that have problems progressing would get chewed up in WoW endgame or other similar titles.

There are opportunities for you to make money that you just aren't taking. If you aren't looting specific popular items and buying pets from your shop after almost every completed map to sell in your afk shop, then you aren't going to have the mana to buy/upgrade items.

It's not to say you have to do that. There is plenty of DD that can be enjoyed casually. However, for players that don't want to commit the time/effort to build end game characters to complain is silly to me. Why should the hardcore players not have content too?

I think DD has enough content and varying difficulty to satisfy casual and hard core players. The problem is that the casual players want to play the hard core difficulty and wear the hardcore gear while still playing the game casually. To me, that would be like someone playing WoW for 20-50 hours and wanting to run the most difficult raids the game offers.

If anyone needs help, there are mountains of advice threads, build maps, and even walkthrough videos. There are also tons of players willing to help lower players.

If you are willing to put in the time and effort, there is no problem jumping from insane to Nightmare. If you like to play DD a few hours a week... then just enjoy Insane.

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This game isn't WoW. It is a cross between a console RPG and a tower defense game. All the artwork, design, and content in this game does not even equal the content in the first zone of World of Warcraft. As such, the acceptable amount of grind is also far lower than WoW. It makes absolutely zero sense to compare this game to World of Warcraft. None.

Tell me which console RPG or tower defense game requires anywhere near the amount of time required grinding money or experience that this game requires. Which console RPG do you play that people typically abandon the game on *any* difficulty level because it is too hard or too long?

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It seems you completely missed my point.

There is enough content for casual players to get more than their money's worth out of this title.

I think it is backwards, rude, selfish, and just silly to complain about the high level content geared towards the hard core players. Again, if you want to play casually, play casually. If you want to get more than that out of this game, good news, the devs have made that possible.


Tell me which console RPG or tower defense game requires anywhere near the amount of time required grinding money or experience that this game requires. Which console RPG do you play that people typically abandon the game on *any* difficulty level because it is too hard or too long?


So because you can't think of a previous title that offered this, nobody ever should? What kind of logic is that? I can't even comprehend the thought process that goes behind making a comment like that.

I don't think I can explain it any other way to be more clear. I don't want to be rude.. but some people just need to get over themselves. Consider for two seconds that someone other than yourself is playing this game too.

It's the same in every game forum ever created. If you want a game catered specifically to your playstyle... go develop your own game. Or play different titles. There were over 500 new titles released last year. The idea is for you to find a game that fits your style. Not spend hundreds of hours complaining that the game you already own isn't taking the direction you want it to.

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It's the same in every game forum ever created. If you want a game catered specifically to your playstyle... go develop your own game. Or play different titles. There were over 500 new titles released last year. The idea is for you to find a game that fits your style. Not spend hundreds of hours complaining that the game you already own isn't taking the direction you want it to.


It's funny because this is exactly how Nightmare came about; some people complaining that the game was too easy or didn't have enough content while expecting a $15 title to last them for more than a month, rather than enjoying it for what it was.

Constantly referencing which content is designed for stupid misconceptual stereotypes like 'hardcore' and 'casual' doesn't justify issues with the game. Players come in all ranges of skill, devoted play-time, and play games for various reasons. The main reason why anyone plays a game is for fun. When more content added to the game doesn't provide more entertainment or is gated by first having to re-play through hours of boring and border-line mindless gameplay, then there's obviously a problem.


I don't think I can explain it any other way to be more clear. I don't want to be rude.. but some people just need to get over themselves. Consider for two seconds that someone other than yourself is playing this game too.


Take your own advice to heart too, please. No where was it stated that people would have to replay through at least 6-8 hours of vanilla Dungeon Defenders before being able to fully enjoy their newly purchased DLC. Consider that some people have very limited time to play on a daily or weekly basis, and that it's reasonable for them to be unsatisfied and provide feedback about why they don't enjoy the new time-sinks. Anyone's money spent towards Trendy is as good as yours, and there's nothing wrong with them wanting to enjoy that investment spent.

The basis that makes these new leveling curves and mana costs atrocious is the appealing standard that was set by the original game; keeping the boring pitfalls of RPGs out of the game and letting the Action part shine. Leveling a new character to 70 and out-fitting them with decent gear was maybe a one-night endeavor. The time to earn new, badass weapons from Spooktacular took the same amount of time to complete most late-game maps, but it was significantly harder. But once super-loot was added to late-wave Survival, the complaints started rolling in about how it took too long. Now suddenly, it's alright to take a massive amount of time to progress in Nightmare, because it's "hardcore?" It's really mind-blowing to see the mentality of a present-day gaming community revert to decades-old logic akin to the Everquest days where people think that you have to have large portions of time available to play the game to be entitled to enjoy it.

What some people want is very simple, cut down the grinding. Games can be hard and challenging without timesinks. Dropping the XP curve close original pre-hotfix implementation and adding a reasonable cap to item upgrade costs are two very simple and reasonable places to start that does nothing but benefit everyone by letting them enjoy new content and tackle new challenges much more quickly. How this can be misconstrued as taking away content from anyone is beyond me; grinding is not content.

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