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Reconsider Hardcore Survival


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i do not play survival. it is most decidedly anti-fun, takes far too long, and it is filled with too many cheap ways to die and minimalistic rewards. part of it is because of the loot system, which radically needs to be changed; part of it is the fact that it is a time sink, and nothing more, and part of it is the fact that there are certain elements of the game that are carried over into survival that either completely ruin the experience or are designed to grief the player just because.

dark elf warriors kill survival for me on any level, because once you hit wave 15, they move so quickly and there are just so many of them that despite your best efforts, they fall on you from the sky out of nowhere and oneshot you, and then proceed to systematically dismantle your defenses one by one with impunity because of their attack rate and damage. they work fine as an enemy in campaign, because the levels end before they have a chance to get so insane, but with the scaling in survival...

and i dont even attempt survival on nightmare, because the amount of ogres they throw at you and the fact that they have god knows how many million hitpoints, coupled with spiders that completely kill your defenses, its just not worth the aggravation. especially when you have to get to wave 10 to start getting any sort of drop that might be worth picking up. of course, thats if you can survive the 19 ogres that all spawn at once.

there are too many things wrong with survival/nightmare currently, and these issues have only been exacerbated by recent changes.

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[QUOTE]Once you're capable of reaching the higher waves in survival (15+). Basically all the waves before that will be boring. [/QUOTE]
same for 20+
and probably 25 +
no fun, just waste of time :skeleton:

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I played my fair part of DD. I was in the forums nearly every day. But they didnt address the main issue, the survival. So, this game is just too boring for me. DD has become an asia grinder. You spend your days farming in redundant modes which require yourself being in the game pretty long in one sitting to get good loot. Well, even asia grinder arent that boring. I'm just disappointed that Trendy cant see the real issues but is tweaking stuff which is already alright.

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same for 20+
and probably 25 +:


FYI 20+ and 25+ are inherently included in 15+

As far as Hardcore. It's perfect, and fine.

As far as survival, its TERRIBLE. I hate playing for 5+ hours before I reach a challenge, the 1 hour of fun I get rewarded with after 5 hours or boredom is NOT WORTH IT. please drastically increase the difficulty per wave and drastically decrease the mob count progression, no more 30 minute waves.

Ideally wave 12-15 would have enemy stats as high as 25's are now, with equal or less mobs than waves 12-15 have now. Survival should not take longer than 3 hours.

As people have said the only thing "difficult" about survival is trying to convince your family / spouse that you need to be left alone to play this game for 5-7 hours straight.

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Mistymire has a much milder enemy progression, though it has more waves. Odds are good that the rest of Eternia Shards will probably follow a similar pattern.

If Survival is not your cup of tea, then feel free not to play it. It's not made for everyone, especially on nightmare. There is no need to "asia grind" if you don't want to, there are plenty of things to achieve in the game beyond beating the crap out of survival.

Please also remember that the devs have been dropping hints about new upper tier content. I'm just guessing here but it's probably fair to say that you're not going to be seeing much in the future that's in the 5+ hour department.

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New upper tier content, wow. It's like they dont listen at all. People complaining about gear getting too great too fast, lets throw some more in. Why cant they just focus on problems that need to be fixed instead of creating a new problem.

It's true you dont have to "asia grind" survival. But tell me, how am I supposed to get better gear to get through high tier content, if I dont do survival. It's kinda like, you have to be this tall to enter. If I'm not that tall, thats it for me period. I dont have time for survival.

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It's true you dont have to "asia grind" survival. But tell me, how am I supposed to get better gear to get through high tier content, if I dont do survival. It's kinda like, you have to be this tall to enter. If I'm not that tall, thats it for me period. I dont have time for survival.


Unfortuneatly, you are right and that survival currently is part of the progression. You can't just go from campaign all the way through, unless you repeatedly try Misty campaign until you beat it just like you did with the first nm level to get a set of mythical. The fact that is in the normal progression means that it should at least be tweaked slightly.

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New upper tier content, wow. It's like they dont listen at all. People complaining about gear getting too great too fast, lets throw some more in. Why cant they just focus on problems that need to be fixed instead of creating a new problem.

It's true you dont have to "asia grind" survival. But tell me, how am I supposed to get better gear to get through high tier content, if I dont do survival. It's kinda like, you have to be this tall to enter. If I'm not that tall, thats it for me period. I dont have time for survival.


I agree with everything you said so its faster just to quote it all.

New gear tiers. Are you kidding me? No one asked for that.

Or maybe it will be a good thing if they release that soon as that way I'll be so fed up with the game and trendy that I wont even check forums anymore :).

I keep coming back here every day to read patch notes and hoping that they did something clever that will spark my interest again.

There is not a lot than really can be said on this topic that hasn't been said 400 times in the past and have gotten ignored 400 times in the past by trendy as well.

I don't think I've spoken to one single person who are capable of going to w25 in a NM HC Surv that enjoys it. And really, that should tell you something trendy..

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I hate playing for 5+ hours before I reach a challenge, the 1 hour of fun I get rewarded with after 5 hours or boredom is NOT WORTH IT. please drastically increase the difficulty per wave and drastically decrease the mob count progression, no more 30 minute waves.

Ideally wave 12-15 would have enemy stats as high as 25's are now, with equal or less mobs than waves 12-15 have now. Survival should not take longer than 3 hours.

As people have said the only thing "difficult" about survival is trying to convince your family / spouse that you need to be left alone to play this game for 5-7 hours straight.


Increasing the difficulty ramp up doesn't really change anything. People would eventually beat that and we'd still have the same problem as we do now. Either that or it would become impossible if the gear didn't change and people would just stop progressing.

Point being, while decreasing the amount of mobs per wave is probably something all of us would like, it still leaves people grinding the first 10-20 waves with no purpose or challenge once they can reach 20+.

I suggested it in another thread, but I'll bring it up here. Some sort of system to pick up near the furthest you've ever been prevents you from having to grind the early waves over and over again. In the other thread I suggested starting on the furthest wave you've completed with some form of unlimited mana to set up defenses. (or 1 wave before or every 3 or only past wave 10 or something). Making people grind the easy waves over and over again is merely a boring time sink.



Back to the original topic though. Hardcore makes survival even more boring. I think the op probably wouldn't mind it if it was just an achievement or a score bonus or something you could try for once and be done with. As the main method for getting better gear, it turns the already problem riddled survival into even more of a bore fest.

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Increasing the difficulty ramp up doesn't really change anything. People would eventually beat that and we'd still have the same problem as we do now.


What? I don't care if people can beat it. My *problem* is that if you want get top tier loot you have to lead a responsibility free life and be willing to sit down and play for 7 hours in a row.

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What? I don't care if people can beat it. My *problem* is that if you want get top tier loot you have to lead a responsibility free life and be willing to sit down and play for 7 hours in a row.


The problem I was discussing is the 7 hours it takes to do survival. Making the ramp up of difficulty steeper doesn't change the time factor. All increasing the ramp up does is make it harder to get to further waves. People will still eventually get to those harder waves though and thus, increasing the ramp up doesn't solve the excessive time problem. Unless you were implicitly suggesting survival waves be reduced to a much smaller number of waves with these large difficulty increases.

You mentioned drastically decreasing the number of mobs, and while I think this would definitely help, it would still require you to grind the first 15+ waves before getting to anything worth while.

I've seen it said several times that misty mire has much less mobs. Does anyone know how long that takes to fully complete on survival?

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[QUOTE]New upper tier content, wow. It's like they dont listen at all. People complaining about gear getting too great too fast, lets throw some more in. Why cant they just focus on problems that need to be fixed instead of creating a new problem.[/QUOTE]You're really taking what I said out of context. They absolutely do listen to you. However, people have conflicting opinions and it's not always easy to tell what people really want. It really sounds like nothing could make you happy. Do you want a challenge or don't you? Should they add more easy content since you don't seem to like the sound of "upper tier"? Longer or shorter content? Why don't you make it a bit clearer what you really want so we can get on the same page.

When I say "upper tier" all I mean is:

Eternia 2 will be a bit harder than eternia 1

Eternia 3 will be a bit harder than eternia 2

4 be a bit harder than 3

Then after that, they have hinted at new modes for challenging players. Jer even posted in another thread dropping a hint about a mode where you fight all the bosses. From the sound of it there will be completely new things to do in the future. Trendy most likely plans ahead farther than you would think.

[quote]
New gear tiers. Are you kidding me? No one asked for that.[/quote]Who said anything about new gear tiers? Man, say anything on this forum and people will take it and run with their imaginations.

It's actually impossible to have new gear tiers, because the highest gear available from NM Misty survival actually approaches technical limits (esp. upgrade levels which have already hit the technical limit)

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Unless you were implicitly suggesting survival waves be reduced to a much smaller number of waves with these large difficulty increases.


Yeah, I just noticed I wasn't clear in my original post. This is exactly what I'm suggesting. Cap it at wave 12-15.

It's actually impossible to have new gear tiers, because the highest gear available from NM Misty survival actually approaches technical limits (esp. upgrade levels which have already hit the technical limit)


These technical limits can be bypassed pretty easily... not saying they should.

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End it before wave 15 and you wont be getting pets :p
Survival was originally described by the game as "endless." You should have known what you were getting into when you started. It was only discovered later when people managed to get real far that it's actually not endless.


Survival is not for everyone. That's all there is to it. It's not required to enjoy the game. This is part of why the ability to sell and trade items exists. You don't have time to play misty survival, but someone else does, then you save up some mana and go buy some good mythics from player shops, then you enjoy content that isn't as time consuming. As I pointed out there has been more content relaeased unrelated to survival and there will continue to be more.

[QUOTE]These technical limits can be bypassed pretty easily... not saying they should. [/QUOTE]Would require using larger sized variables, and the fact that they used smaller ones (8bit int for upgrade levels for instance) should be taken as a sign that they didn't intend to go past that when they made it.

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Survival is not for everyone. That's all there is to it. It's not required to enjoy the game.


Why should only the people who don't have real life responsibilities be allowed exclusive rights to top end gear? Why should those of us with families, friends, and school have to play with the junk? That is really poor game design, simple.

You must be kidding yourself if you think there are shops out there where you can just buy 250^ armors. Oh! Unless it's one of the dozens of USD shops that you find open every day. And I don't want to "buy" my best equipment, I want to earn it.

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End it before wave 15 and you wont be getting pets :p
Survival was originally described by the game as "endless." You should have known what you were getting into when you started. It was only discovered later when people managed to get real far that it's actually not endless.


Survival is not for everyone. That's all there is to it. It's not required to enjoy the game. This is part of why the ability to sell and trade items exists. You don't have time to play misty survival, but someone else does, then you save up some mana and go buy some good mythics from player shops, then you enjoy content that isn't as time consuming. As I pointed out there has been more content relaeased unrelated to survival and there will continue to be more.

Would require using larger sized variables, and the fact that they used smaller ones (8bit int for upgrade levels for instance) should be taken as a sign that they didn't intend to go past that when they made it.


it may not be intended for everyone, but the way it is done it is required of everyone, it is the only place you can get even remotely half decent gear...soo yea. it's for everyone..

well, there or some shady AFK shop.. that is

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End it before wave 15 and you wont be getting pets :p
Survival was originally described by the game as "endless." You should have known what you were getting into when you started. It was only discovered later when people managed to get real far that it's actually not endless.


Survival is not for everyone. That's all there is to it. It's not required to enjoy the game. This is part of why the ability to sell and trade items exists. You don't have time to play misty survival, but someone else does, then you save up some mana and go buy some good mythics from player shops, then you enjoy content that isn't as time consuming. As I pointed out there has been more content relaeased unrelated to survival and there will continue to be more.

Would require using larger sized variables, and the fact that they used smaller ones (8bit int for upgrade levels for instance) should be taken as a sign that they didn't intend to go past that when they made it.


If they lessened the waves, they'd just move the pet reward to a different wave.

So your suggestion to not playing survival is to grind mana? I don't think people will be satisfied with that answer.

As far as upgrades. I highly doubt anyone wants more upgrades. The upgrade system on the surface may seem like a way to customize gear, but is really just a mana sink in the end. Another grind to complete. Also if I had to take a guess, it's also the reason nightmare is so different than easy-insane. Upgrading weapon dmg scaled way more than tower dmg and hero dps was getting out of hand.

Also just because survival was originally described as endless doesn't mean it can't have progress that you don't have to repeat every time you start it. I actually think it being endless would be kind of cool. If i didn't have to mindlessly grind the bottom waves every time I wanted to play it.

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it may not be intended for everyone, but the way it is done it is required of everyone, it is the only place you can get even remotely half decent gear...soo yea. it's for everyone..

well, there or some shady AFK shop.. that is
It's not for everyone, nor is it required for everyone.

Unless you're trying to get to survival wave 30 on NM misty, you really don't need gear with 300 to all stats and 254 upgrades. You really don't. I beat most of the campaign on nightmare by clearing 1-2 waves on Endless Spires until I got some basic mythics, and then after getting those I was able to beat both endless spires and may of the other campaign levels. You do not need survival gear, not by a long shot. Perhaps you personally feel compelled to get it, but that doesn't actually mean that you need it.

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