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Reconsider Hardcore Survival


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Hardcore is a perfectly fine addition - for campaign. Survival has its ups and downs, but isn't really problematic.

The combination however, should be rethought.

For campaign, hardcore forces you to be careful and mobile in setup/maintenance/dodging spiders etc (atleast until you overpower it, but thats the same as ever). A death to failure causes some reevaluation of your strategy and so forth.

Survival, as it is, is very much about establishing a setup and letting it roll. Hardcore in survival essentially motivates you to not play the game. By this, I mean, in a long survival game, you generally want to be able to run around and just do whatever to keep it interesting. Hardcore negates that by punishing you for doing that. Yes, it does add difficulty, but when its 10 to 20+ minute blocks of being able to play lost for that - assuming your defenses/teammates will hold up anyway, its not a good mechanic.

If the goal is difficulty, there are many ways to about that. If the goal is to punish carelessness, thats fine, but do it in a way that allows players to keep playing. Gives the enemies a 'bloodlust' boost or something, increased strength/speed for a period after a player death. Or make it so without the players influence, a tower loses control and turns on them. Mixed mode for insane survival was perfectly fine for this, it created a different dynamic on many maps, required new strategies to handle different spawns and stronger mobs and so forth. Hardcore survival is just normal survival except with more sitting in a corner.

tldr; Re-adapt a different modifier instead of hardcore to make survival harder, one that promotes active play rather than passive.

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My only complaint is the way loot goes away. in mixed mode survival if you don't go and loot during the round you lose good loot and have tons of high value 1/1 left over at end. Sadly at wave 20+ even with full resist you get 1 shot. so you can't risk leaving your safe zone to loot.

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Then dont play hardcore...



lol and so what? thre is no alternative since many players just want the top challenge and/or progress in the game, and only hardcore allows that

anyway the 1 shot is a very bad mechanic in ANY game, im really surprised still in 2012 SH still insert chance for you to instadie with no appeal

its just bad, also considering how much effort ppl put into resistance gear etc

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My only complaint is the way loot goes away. in mixed mode survival if you don't go and loot during the round you lose good loot and have tons of high value 1/1 left over at end. Sadly at wave 20+ even with full resist you get 1 shot. so you can't risk leaving your safe zone to loot.



loot is the worst part of this game really
to be so much important and center of the game its not admissible to have such a crap loot system

2132312321 crap items on the ground, very hard to collect, and also no good distribution method

kinda meh

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lol and so what? thre is no alternative since many players just want the top challenge and/or progress in the game, and only hardcore allows that

anyway the 1 shot is a very bad mechanic in ANY game, im really surprised still in 2012 SH still insert chance for you to instadie with no appeal

its just bad, also considering how much effort ppl put into resistance gear etc


It's only 1shot cause you're bad.
and 1shot is not a bad mechanic to any game.

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It's only 1shot cause you're bad.
and 1shot is not a bad mechanic to any game.


Agreed it was a fun mode as INSTAGIB in unreal tournament, anyplace besides a shooter (where you at least have respawns) its a ****ing bad game mechanic.

And especially since you need armors with 300+ to get anywhere near good resistances on NM.

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Since we don't have any idea what your stat is, we can't take anything you say seriously.

If I try insane with only easy gear. I'm going to get 1 shoted no matter what I do. Does that mean we should change insane?

The hardest mode in the game, requires the best gear in the game.

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lol and so what? thre is no alternative since many players just want the top challenge and/or progress in the game, and only hardcore allows that
'

So you want the hardest challenge in the game to be easy enough for you? There are others who want more challenge than that, and they're getting it. If you don't like the hardest parts, don't play them. Asking to take them away from others is wrong.

Instead, ask for a new mode that does what you want.

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I personally would like to see trendy come up with a way to make survival more accessible to the serious player who doesnt have time for a 10+ hour game. Something like capping the number of mobs In a wave but making their stats increase dramatically would preserve the difficulty without making the endgame inaccessible for a person with a job and a family to attend to. IMO a game of survival should take at most 3 hours to complete.

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I personally would like to see trendy come up with a way to make survival more accessible to the serious player who doesnt have time for a 10+ hour game. Something like capping the number of mobs In a wave but making their stats increase dramatically would preserve the difficulty without making the endgame inaccessible for a person with a job and a family to attend to. IMO a game of survival should take at most 3 hours to complete.


survival with capped mob number and with mob stats increase already exist and its in the game... The name of it is Ubber Monster Fest

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survival with capped mob number and with mob stats increase already exist and its in the game... The name of it is Ubber Monster Fest


Id be satisfied with that if i could obtain loot comparable to the current endgame of nm hc survival. Not saying give me easy loot, i just want to be able to work on the hardest challenges, not the longest.

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They dont need to make survival shorter, they need to add a save feature so you can return and begin the next wave. Perhaps it might also fix random disconnects that force you to begin from the first wave. (Crystals dying should be what forces the restart, not a random connection error.)

For example, when I played WoW a couple years ago, if you joined a raid and killed a boss, you and all the players were auto-saved to a specific raid instance, which reset once per week, allowing you to return the following day and attempt to kill a 2nd boss.

I'm for a save feature all the way, not for making it shorter.

EDIT: and Hardcore is fine the way it is.

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survival with capped mob number and with mob stats increase already exist and its in the game... The name of it is Ubber Monster Fest


thats totally another map, and its also for a large group
what he was asking (And me and others are too) is a more skill based map but less time consuming, its a legit request

imo it should just "save" your progress and allow a deeper start every time, lets say you reach wave 17 you should be allowed to start at wave 13 or 14 (with the needed mana for that wave) and so on

still id prefer waves with much less mobs and much harder and skillful

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The problem is the survival part not the hardcore part. Survival is a very badly designed game mode that is incredibly boring for a long period of time. They may as well call it uber snore fest. If you can get anywhere near wave 25 then the first 4+ hours of survival are going to be pure boredom.

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The problem is the survival part not the hardcore part. Survival is a very badly designed game mode that is incredibly boring for a long period of time. They may as well call it uber snore fest. If you can get anywhere near wave 25 then the first 4+ hours of survival are going to be pure boredom.


Yup, survival is boring and it's sad it's the only way to get the best gear. Hardcore only adds to this boredom because you are forced to pretty much stand in your base and jump around to avoid dying. Even with invis, ninjas see through it. 32k HP and max resist and by Wave 15 ninjas still one shot. It's just not reliable to attempt to loot. If you do die early in a wave, you are forced to AFK for those 20 minutes. Everytime I play and someone dies early, they just quit. No one finds this fun. They need to lower the mob count, and actually make the mobs harder instead of increasing number so much.

So you lose 99% of the loot, have to let your setup do the work, and pretty much can't AFK. All you do is run around repairing and shooting ogres. Great fun =/

Many people are going to argue that "this is the hardest part of the game", but it doesn't matter. What's boring is boring, difficulty doesn't matter. Games are about having fun. Hardcore survival isn't even hard, it's just time consuming and requires you to sit back and do nothing and stressfully watch upgrades disappear until the wave is over. I'd rather have easier access to the game's end-game and have a higher population than what we have now. Population is dying with the current system, no one wants to farm the same survival map over and over and over, there's really no alternatives.

There's an incredible amount wrong with Survival, Hardcore, Looting System, Upgrades, etc. This is coming from someone who can farm misty, and I can perfectly understand why most people quit well before this point. Trendy is not going to redesign their entire game, and honestly there's so many features about this game that worked fine before nightmare came out, but now it doesn't work. I see the populate dying off, and most people quitting. While I am able to farm the hardest maps, it means nothing when no one plays anymore.

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and honestly there's so many features about this game that worked fine before nightmare came out, but now it doesn't work..

You do know nightmare has not acutally come out. It's beta until 3 more DLCs come out...Sadly its a weird beta where you keep what you get.

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You do know nightmare has not acutally come out. It's beta until 3 more DLCs come out...Sadly its a weird beta where you keep what you get.


Yeah, but honestly.. who doesn't have access to nightmare mode? Very few people. They can use that as a cheap excuse of "early access", and claim that nightmare isn't scheduled to be released until the 4th DLC for the expansion is released, which is probably 2-3 months away?

I don't see them fixing the mechanics. Upgrading 220^ Armor and 250^ weapons is just insanely time consuming, annoying, and requires more than the 2b mana cap. I know lots of people are using programs to automatically move their mouse to upgrade their gear, that's how bad this feature is now. At this rate, we will have 500^ armor/weapons in a few months.. costing 200m per single upgrade and taking hours to sit there pressing buttons (assuming you have the 250b mana required).

If I had to change 2 things about the game it'd be the way the current upgrade system works, and survival mode.

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You cats got it, survival needs the reboot, hardcore is perfect as is. If they change it I will hunt you down :-P

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Nightmare mode and mythical loot brought to you by the following mentality:

So you want the hardest challenge in the game to be easy enough for you? There are others who want more challenge than that, and they're getting it. If you don't like the hardest parts, don't play them. Asking to take them away from others is wrong.


It's people "like you" that caused gear and stat inflation. "This game sucks, I have the best **** ever. I quit unless there's a new mode and better equipment for me."

And you got what you wanted instead of realizing that the game had an end point and going "wow, that was awesome!" and putting it down like a good book.

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Just a thought for hardcore (mostly in general).

What if instead of the "I can only die once" deal, it gets to be more "hardcore" by lowering the amount of DU you get to use to build defenses?

Would that be a viable alternative and help to stave off boredom?

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Ultimately it does not matter what they add because the powerful stages are so much more powerful than the starting stages. If you are able to reach the end stages then you destroy weaker monsters with a bat of your eyebrow and you are going to have to fight them for four hours to reach the end stages. If the first stage enemies pose a threat of any kind to you then you cannot reach the end stages.

Adjusting the DU only makes it more difficult to beat the late stages. It won't make the early stages somehow fun. If the early stages are a fun challenge for you, then you are not able to beat the late stages and you will be frustrated by the difficulty. If the late stages are a fun challenge for you then the early stages are boring. There's no happy medium in a game mode that gets more difficult over a period of 8 hours. Several hours of that has to be either too easy or too difficult.

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Well, if you can actually get a death via less DU, then you would be a lot more willing to go out there and contribute your own character's DPS as well to help make up for the loss in defenses, no?

Otherwise, judging by this thread (and I'm not really sure I blame them, but I'm not far enough yet to really start progressing through Nightmare), it's just sitting in a corner and letting your defenses do all the work because if you die, that's it, and why bother risking yourself through dumb luck?

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  • 1 month later...
Yup, survival is boring and it's sad it's the only way to get the best gear. Hardcore only adds to this boredom because you are forced to pretty much stand in your base and jump around to avoid dying. Even with invis, ninjas see through it. 32k HP and max resist and by Wave 15 ninjas still one shot. It's just not reliable to attempt to loot. If you do die early in a wave, you are forced to AFK for those 20 minutes. Everytime I play and someone dies early, they just quit. No one finds this fun. They need to lower the mob count, and actually make the mobs harder instead of increasing number so much.

So you lose 99% of the loot, have to let your setup do the work, and pretty much can't AFK. All you do is run around repairing and shooting ogres. Great fun =/

Many people are going to argue that "this is the hardest part of the game", but it doesn't matter. What's boring is boring, difficulty doesn't matter. Games are about having fun. Hardcore survival isn't even hard, it's just time consuming and requires you to sit back and do nothing and stressfully watch upgrades disappear until the wave is over. I'd rather have easier access to the game's end-game and have a higher population than what we have now. Population is dying with the current system, no one wants to farm the same survival map over and over and over, there's really no alternatives.

There's an incredible amount wrong with Survival, Hardcore, Looting System, Upgrades, etc. This is coming from someone who can farm misty, and I can perfectly understand why most people quit well before this point. Trendy is not going to redesign their entire game, and honestly there's so many features about this game that worked fine before nightmare came out, but now it doesn't work. I see the populate dying off, and most people quitting. While I am able to farm the hardest maps, it means nothing when no one plays anymore.


There is a lot of truth in here and hopefully some of the developers see this. It's easy to understand why hardcore exists. It was a very simple mechanic to add while increasing difficulty(to a lesser degree, same with survival). It is tolerable in normal campaign mode (tolerable at best) since waves are short and much of the time is spent building and the overall map is short, during survival hardcore is just plain boring. And not only that it makes survival more boring than it already is. Making something hard is actually really easy. The challenge comes from making something harder while still being fun or even more fun.

Once you're capable of reaching the higher waves in survival (15+). Basically all the waves before that will be boring. This isn't good design and while some people will always do what it takes to get better gear, the community as a whole will shrink when the options for character advancement are boring or inaccessible.

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Tl;dr XD !!!
Anyways...
One thing I can't really understand is if they could manage to scale the mob count by a nice value on Misty survival and increase their HP, stats, etc., then why can't the developers implement it on other maps? It's really boring and time consuming to play survival on other maps and just dumb enough to find the loot quality is no where near compared to the amount of time and efforts you put in it...and getting shot-ed in a MMO/RPG really doesn't make sense at all. If one says it does, then him/her hasn't played much of RPG/MMOs....getting a headshot/one hit kill in a FPS is understandable, but getting 1 shot-ed by a Spider/DEW in NM is dumb, Ogres is somewhat fine but getting 1 hit killed by any other mobs is pointless.

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