Jump to content

Regarding upgrades


Recommended Posts

There is clearly problem with both draining the market of mana, and immense grinding one has to do to fully upgrade his gear for 4 or more heroes ...
Furthermore, it is incredibly annoying that you can put 1 billion mana in a stat that the very next patch will make useless .. I have seen not only stats, but also heroes going out of favour (like there was a time only hunters were around, hp was not needed on hero before uber, resistance was all before nm etc.)
I am now afraid to put billion into armor - next week i can find better one. Or suddenly dps heroes are back in favour (and necessary!) so i need a new set of armors altogether ...

This game many times has only one strategy to beat game, and if u dont use it you are in troubles. I have had countess and i would occasionally make it to 2nd wave of uber 2 nm, i switched to melee apprentice and i make it till 6/7 ... But i needed to spent 1 billion on his weapon.

Solution:
mana invested in armor/pet/etc. should be able to be transferred into new gear.
Let say, i am changing helmet, the new one should start with as many mana as my previous one had. I have, lets say, 70 upgrades, and now 30 to go. Then i switch to 120 ups and so on.
It will revive economy and help people progressing in game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There is clearly problem with both draining the market of mana, and immense grinding one has to do to fully upgrade his gear for 4 or more heroes ...
Furthermore, it is incredibly annoying that you can put 1 billion mana in a stat that the very next patch will make useless .. I have seen not only stats, but also heroes going out of favour (like there was a time only hunters were around, hp was not needed on hero before uber, resistance was all before nm etc.)
I am now afraid to put billion into armor - next week i can find better one. Or suddenly dps heroes are back in favour (and necessary!) so i need a new set of armors altogether ...

This game many times has only one strategy to beat game, and if u dont use it you are in troubles. I have had countess and i would occasionally make it to 2nd wave of uber 2 nm, i switched to melee apprentice and i make it till 6/7 ... But i needed to spent 1 billion on his weapon.

Solution:
mana invested in armor/pet/etc. should be able to be transferred into new gear.
Let say, i am changing helmet, the new one should start with as many mana as my previous one had. I have, lets say, 70 upgrades, and now 30 to go. Then i switch to 120 ups and so on.
It will revive economy and help people progressing in game.


Solution: The Diablo 2 Solution... Have all weapons & Armors drop fully upgraded. Only give them 1-6 sockets for bonus upgrades. It worked for Diablo 2.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i switched to melee apprentice


Please tell me how?

But anyway typos aside I agree this is getting really ridiculous and really to solve this wepons should start with better base stats
and less upgrades so upgrading is not as nessacery, but we probaly wont see anything like this as everyone would have to start again with all their gear.

So till Trendy gets their stuff sorted why dont you just make a new low level character and play with noobs? I did thid the other day and found myself having lots of fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
From fighting countess to fighting apprentice is an easy switch, you just get a weapon and upgrade it. Then u move all your gear to sec hero, that it.

If gear will come with full upgrade that we will totally change a game - my solution is half way; there are upgrades but u could change from one gear to another without lots of mana investment ...

All the more that this game is not Diablo, it is a game of concrete challenges and some of them need different approach (stats/gear/heroes) to handle it; thus, u need like 10-15 sets of armor and all characters leveled ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This was my point since the beginning. I saw that coming months ago but my posts were lost in the crowd. The upgrade system IS NOT good or even interesting. It requires increasing amount of useless farm. And it gives more generic items. You won't see anymore a "Wow this item is great by itself", since the item is only great because of the number of upgrades.

Seriously, upgrade system should be "A BONUS" not "A MUST HAVE".

There are 3 solutions for Trendy atm :

- Remaking the whole upgrade system. It will take time and work, it will probably erase all the farm already did by the players causing them to be really angry, but it will save the game in the long term providing more strategies with the differents items than before and less useless farm. Items choice should be more important than Upgrades. What's the point of giving us a lot of items if they don't have any specificity. Each item should have its stats (positives and negatives, not the ALL STATS ITEMS like we see atm), even randomised. For example, if I take a flamethrower that requires me to be close, I'm waiting for more damage than my crossing bow than can pierce from a long distance. The better choice.

- Leaving the game in that state, and attempting to make theses upgrades a lot cheaper. Less work, erase useless farm, not solving the item issues. A medium, not that great, solution. Waiting for the first to be applied.

- Continue that way. Less work, game will die except for the few hardcore gamers that actually enjoy that (I'm an hardcore gamer myself, but I don't enjoy this, so I will gladly wait for the situation to be resolved). Btw, I know, the game will not REALLY die, but it won't be as enjoyable, or fun, as it could (and should) be. The worst choice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It doesn't help that in order to upgraded these items with 100+ ups on them, we are almost forced to use the DD store.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I would really like to know the devs views on this "problem" or "mechanic".
If they're planning to continue on this way or change things.
Because it's their game afterall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Trendy NEED to change the actual Upgrade System... It's broken, in order to upgrade ONE you to farma endless hours and open AFK shops or EDLESS hours ....

I'm ok with Froh's suggestion about Weapons come with FULL upgrated DAMAGE and some MINOR upgrade slots to FIX/PERSONALIZE your weapon...something like all weapons comin with 100% but some will come with less clip size or less block or less Projectiles... so you can always upgrade this and that at your choice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The Context

I believe the upgrades were made this way for a reason. That reason is that it gives way more potential for every single items, making it much, much easier to find the item that you need. Then to make it up par with the metagame standards, you need the mana. That crazy amount of mana represents the trouble you'd get to find the said "needed item" if the items were, like someone else said, like in diablo 2.

I think Trendy chose to replace randomness of the drops by something not random at all so every single effort will be paying in the end. Instead of farming UMF2 20, 50 or 100 times until you get the godly item, you get it all the time, except that you will also need mana to make it useful. It is actually normal that you can't farm the godliest gear for all your chars in a month of gameplay.

but...

The Problem

This problem consists of two parts:

  • New patches and DLC completely redefines what is a good item and what is a worthless piece of junk.
  • Those changes are too intense if we consider the time span between each patches so far.


I'll talk a bit more about diablo 2 because I know that game a lot. It had the exact same problem, except you only had a part of it.

From one patch to the other, you use to build a complete new character because "re-specing" was impossible and the useful builds, whether it was for pvp or pve, were COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. It went from hammerdins not existing at all in patch 1.09 because they would deal about 100 dmg, to the godliest class in 1.10, dealing several thousands of "holy" damage for which there were no resistance and about 2 immune monsters in the whole game.

Same happened with items, even the currency changed (high runes instead of sojs). The items changed in a similar way in DD with the move from godlies to mythicals... Who needs a skin of the vipermagi when enigmas or coat of arms are around? (those sorc who wanted 200fcr, but that's beyond the point) What I mean here is that it's not the mana cost for upgrading an item that generates this issue, it's the evolution of the metagame, or what is considered as godly or not.

In my opinion, the impact of a patch in diablo 2 was WAY more intense on the metagame than what we got from DD so far. However, the patches were released every 1-2 years... not every 1 month.

The real problem is the life cycle of an item. The time it takes to farm all that mana for most players is greater than the time they will use the item.

The Solution

There are several ways of dealing with this issue.

1) Slow down the patches. Seeing how the new "expansion" is released in 4 different parts, I can see Trendy won't take that route, and it's probably for the best because players usually like frequent new updates. Even if it worked with Diablo 2, let's forget that, because it obviously goes against how Trendy makes its money, they cultivate our interest in their game by keeping it fresh, if the next patch was due in a year from now, the game would quickly die.

2) Here I consider that Trendy doesn't want to ditch the upgrade system for the reasons I stated at the beginning of my post. The easy fix for this right now is to raise the tavern price for upped items, this sets a minimum value for the items, making it a safer for players who wants to upgrade items as there will be a way to guarantee some mana back when the item becomes obsolete. It would also set a bar for newer players who could want to purchase those lesser items at some price a bit higher than the tavern price. It would be a good way to assure some progress even if tomorrow the new type of item makes it easy to get 2000 in each tower stats without upgraded items. Some said that mana cost for upgrades should be lowered but I believe this goes against the idea of taking a long time to farm (upgrade) all your items and it seems this is what Trendy is going for.

3) Make it so the numbers don't jump that much from one patch to the other. Seriously, what happened with Mythicals and their upgrades going in the 200's with about 10 times the base stats that the godly had is just stupid. It's a beginner mistake. I'm not even in the game design industry and I wouldn't have made that mistake. It makes players who had the godly gear angry because they need to farm it all over again and they can't even use their up-to-now-high-end-gear in nightmare.*

What would have happened if the best myth items had an upgrade level of 125^ with about twice the base stats of godly gear?

High end players would crave the items in the exact same way because what they are looking for is something as close as possible to the highest possible in the game, no matter what that number is, take a look at the console trade section to see what I mean. Right now people aren't lusting for 250^ ups weapons because it has the number "250", it's because it's among the highest, no matter what that number is. The difference is that godly gear would have still be worth something instead of being only good for sale at its tavern shop price.

The other advantage of not raising the number too high too quickly is that if you guys keep going at this rate, you will need to tweak the GUI really soon because the numbers are already hard to read sometimes... so yeah, that was silly. What's the point of having big numbers anyway? The only disavantage of keeping numbers low is the lack of precision. Suppose we were going to divide everything by 100 (in terms of damage dealt and monsters hp) Then there wouldn't be anything between 100 dmg and 200 dmg because it would be 1 and 2. However, in the case of DD, There is already too much precision in numbers, having DPS reach the millions was unnecessary.

The new limits standardized by Myth items could have been much lower and I hope Trendy realizes for the future that there's no point in having the numbers jump that high with each new type of items... Take a look at what Magic the Gathering did over the years, besides dramatically nerfing drawing cards and the kind of mana that was offered in previous editions, the effect of the cards gradually got stronger in a way that flew really well.

* I am scared that it's in Trendy's favor to have people angry and start all over again every time they raise the numbers, that effect actually raises the playability of the game and keep the players busy, lusting for more. It's a cheap and effective way of extend the gameplay potential of an experienced gamer (as in someone who's been playing DD for a while) without actually adding that much more new content.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't think Trendy needs to keep players busy. It's an artificial way to choose farming, and Dungeon Defenders is not a MMO. I mean, I like playing Dungeon Defenders, and I like being able to actually finish it. After that, there's scoring, survival & stuff to do for thoses who wants to play more.
There are others games too and Trendy doesn't have to keep us on its game since we can come back with the new additions happily (without having to farm).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 months later...
I would like to bump this thread because it's seems important to me. Even now. The nightmare mode is always in a "beta state" so some stuff could be done regardings "upgrades".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ok, while DD is not an MMO, it most certainly is an RPG. If you don't think so, simply refer to the RPG category of Steam and find out. I am sure Trendy feels it is a Tower Defense RPG.

Secondly, welcome to the world of game balancing. Anyone who has ever played WoW knows the spamming of "OMG! "X" class is so OP"---"Why did they nerf my class!??!" that accompanied every patch. Game balance is only in the mind of the player. Yesterday (figuratively) a squire says "OMG! App towers are too OP!" so they nerf app towers. Then someone says "Retributions are too OP!" so they get nerfed. Tomorrow, it will be the original squire saying "OMG! Why did I get nerfed?!?!"

Instead of fixing game issues, developers then slide down the slippery slope of having to cater to the portion of the game that will never be satisfied. These are the same people who want the strat they used on Easy "Deeper Wells" to work on NM HC--no, it shouldn't, you should have to be a better player.

I can support a reduced cost for upgrading or an increased item resell value, but saying that, I am sure there are people who don't feel that way.

Once you start voicing complaints or suggestions, you have to realize that sooner or later, someone is going to do the same about thing you like in the game. When that happens, nobody is ever satisfied again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I like the Upgrade System and the items. I'm thrilled every time I get to be able to afford an upgrade because then I get to be better.

Farming mana is a fricking JOKE. Just go solo NM HC Glitter, 50m+ every run or just do NM Ogre Crush for insta 3m every run. (Glitter if u got NM builder, Ogre if you got NM DPS) You don't need Survival to mana farm.

You also get a very good portion of ALL mana spent on an equipment by selling it. Spent 1b on a weapon? Sell it for 600m. Exactly like going to Gamestop, buying a $60 game, beating it in three days, and then sell it back to Gamestop for $40.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You also get a very good portion of ALL mana spent on an equipment by selling it. Spent 1b on a weapon? Sell it for 600m. Exactly like going to Gamestop, buying a $60 game, beating it in three days, and then sell it back to Gamestop for $40.


Yes, and only get 200m (maximum) because the soft-mana-cap wont allow you to gain more from selling to the vendor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So you like not knowing if your weapon is good before the full upgrade ? You like grinding that grinding mana "SOLO" is faster than coop in a coop game ? You like that all weapons don't play on their stats at all because upgrades does the whole interest of weapons you drop alone ? You like, as a new player, to not understand if a weapon is good or bad at all because you don't have your excel paper saying if fully upgraded, the weapon will actually be better or worse than the one you already own ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
how can you not know if it's good or not? Just take the number of remaining upgrades, multiply it by that weapon's max base dmg increase, add the result to current base. You have your max damage. Compare to your weapon. Not factoring in varying attack speeds, attack ranges, and overall usability of the weapon, this is pretty straight forward.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...