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Trendy: Make Nightmare more fun and Accessible.


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As a preface, I love a challenge and was definitely looking forward to Nightmare. I did enjoy going through all of the campaign maps on Nightmare. But with almost every patch, Nightmare has become an increasing exercise in frustration, especially on higher content.

The only people capable of doing NM UMFs/high MM Survivals are either using hacked gear, bought gear from people who farmed it using hacked gear, or exploited NM UMF2 early on. Look at the leaderboard for UMF2 NM and tell me those lvl72s aren’t using hacked gear. Seriously you could take out 98% of the hackers by just banning everyone who completed UMF2 NM after 7.14

I like constant patches but many of these patches have made playing NM worse. Nothing has been done to make it more fun or accessible for most players. There is no easy way to progress through campaign NM to achieve the gear necessary to tackle other NM challenges.

I don’t mean to be complaining and I’d like to offer some serious suggestions to make playing NM more fun and improved to better prepare for UMF/Survivals:


Loot, Experience and Progression
Trendy, you have got it just about right where you can take Insane UMF/Survival gear and progress to Nightmare Deeper Well/Tier1 quite easily. The problem from here is loot and experience doesn't scale very well in Nightmare campaign to prepare you for survival/UMFs/even NM summit. Gear obtained from bosses, especially NM Summit should prepare you for higher-content but they currently don't. Chest loot also doesn't scale very well, especially on Tier1-Tier2 maps.

Ontop of that, the most common method of getting to 74 to use that cool Mythical armor/wps is to grind out 5x-7x VERY BORING Insane Glitterheim runs. Seriously, grinding exp was the worst part of Dungeon Defenders so I don't see why the easiest and only viable option is to grind out glitterheim. Ideally, you should be able to take your 70 char and start on NM Deeper well, and by the time get up to NM Goblin Mech you should be about 74 which is when you will really need your Mythical Gear.

Solutions:
- Increase EXP for killing Nightmare mobs by 500%-1000%. This seems like a lot but really isn't when it takes about 14m exp to go from 70 to 74 and you are getting 10xp a mob.
- Add a rather generous XP bonus for completing NM, and even more for completing HC NM.
- Improve loot for playing Nightmare Campaign/Challenge maps. Chest Loot should scale about 25% better in campaign (Why are we getting torn items?), Improve loot on Tier2/3 mob drops, and Improve boss rewards by 50%-80%. Playing through all the campaign maps in sequence should prepare you well enough to at least start on Survival/UMFs. Ideally the loot obtained from NM Summit should be slightly worse than whats obtained from mid level UMF/Survival.
- Split UMF into a Nightmare and a Hardcore Nightmare mode. Allow respawns on NON-hardcore NM UMFs. This would let people at least have a chance at getting to higher waves on it, and if they really wanted the better loot they could click HC NM


Web
Web is frustrating to play against, artificially makes the game harder, and further hurts tower-characters. For one, it does splash damage so even if you are invisible or thought you had dodged a web you will still get hit. Especially if you aren't the host of a game! After you get hit, you cannot dodge incoming webs so you're immediately re-webbed and probably dead.

You know why aura/traps are so popular? It's because they can't get webbed and ninjaed to death in a few seconds. Not because they're OP.

Solutions:
- Change Web from AoE to single-target. There is already enough spiders to web towers 5x over.
- Add a 0.5-1.5s invulnerability period after getting webbed before you can get rewebbed.


Ogres
For the most part, Ogres are not too big of an issue in campaign. But there are some very frustrating problems with their mechanics and they are still very imbalanced in UMFs.

The one issue that needs to be fixed is their club graphic and attack range. As a tower character you are going to be very squishy and when there is an Ogre attacking a barricade that you need to the repair, the club graphic is very misleading. At present, there is maybe 1" space from its attack range to your repair range. One mistep and you're dead despite not being physically hit by the club.

Another problem is Ogre HP scaling in UMFs does not allow for any easy progression. It should be possible for someone to take gear obtained from NM Campaign and beat the first 1-3 waves of UMF, but the sudden jump from 2m HP campaign Ogres to 8.5m HP UMF ogres is too much.

Solutions:
- Reduce Nightmare Ogre’s attack range by 15%/Fix the range to match the graphic! Based on the club alone you cannot tell where its going to hit. Its almost impossible to repair a barricade under attack as an Apprentice because range is just as far as your repair range and you cant really see that based on it's attack. Getting one shot by a mile long club isn't fun.

- Reduce base Nightmare Ogre’s HP by about 20% in UMF but scale up faster. 8.5M Ogres on the first wave is just too much unless you already have 225^ gear and tower's cant kill them efficiently. It's fine if later waves get up to 10M+ but at least give players the chance to build up for the first few waves. Fighting 5M HP Ogres on W1, 6M on W2, 8M on W3, etc is much more reasonable.


Towers
Staying a pure tower builder isnt all that viable outside of the Campaign maps, especially for a pure-tower Monk. You have to switch to a tanky DPS char in HC/UMFs after putting down towers because you're too weak and just dont contribute enough by staying as one.

Auras are both too weak and too good. As I mentioned before, the only reason auras/traps are still used so much despite being super nerfed is because they are the only things capable of surviving the onslaught of spiders+ninjas once you die. Instead of nerfing auras, towers should be buffed more.

Solutions:
- Increase the DU for NM UMF by 25%. It would open up for more strategy for towers and encourage staying a pure tower-builder because you'd have more towers out that would get buffed.

- Increase aura and trap life in NM by 20% OR restore their effectiveness. It's fine to have very weak auras that are effective, or to have durable auras that are weaker, but why do we have both weak auras that aren't effective? Besides, aren't we getting Djinns which will even further rape traps/auras?

- Tower DMG Buff for playing the tower character should be increased from 33% to 50%-66% in Nightmare. This may seem like a lot but try playing a tower character, it’s just not fun or viable in NM UMF/HC.



Now to compensate, how about increasing the number of maximum mob, increase their spawn rate by 100%, and increase the number of mobs allowed to be spawned at any given time? Go crazy here! But try to cut down on issues that make the game artificially harder.


Thanks for your time and consideration.

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I personally enjoyed having a taller ramp to climb. Yea there's the people hacking or cheating their way through. So report them instead of whining here. Maybe something will get done about it.

My auras don't die in 3 seconds. In fact I only have to repair them once every other wave in most nightmare runs. That's with ~500 tower hp... something very very easily obtainable with just Insane UMF myth set. I don't know what you did wrong there, but I don't understand why your auras die so very fast. I think it's great that our stuff doesn't work as well in nightmare. Did you ever think about the alternative of increasingly stupid high numbers of hp and damage? Instead they did something I wish more companies thought about: Different scaling of what points me in different difficulties to provide a different challenge and experience in each.

I hate to have to say this... but if everyone keeps whining that it's too hard to jump from floor 1 to 50 in a single bound... where is the on going success and building of accomplishments? I think it's admirable to have created such a large ramp with their new difficulty. A lot of people can do the first few maps and I see an ever increasing number beating alch labs and throne room. Why?... because they worked up to it. I know, I know, some people think they payed their 15 dollars so they should get to ride the magic carpet of brady games guide or game genie to the top because they own the game. If that is how you feel, then perhaps you should just play in Open where you can control such things instead of in a section of the game where they are actually trying to create a game with ongoing progression.

Yea... shame on Trendy for creating content you can work up towards if you... gasp... build up to it from one area/challenge to another. Yea, we should totally just turn in 30 old forks from goblins to get instant better gear to win Glitter on nightmare, or even better! How about we just all get an additional 200 points to each stat built into the calculations for damage/health/everything because we deserve a game to be easier instead of challenging with constant new content to enjoy every month.

Now THAT sounds like an awesome game... almost like certain other games with daily's you mindlessly grind every day over and over for lack of willingness or ability to do other/better things to progress. I'm totally sad the entire game, including the hardest end content, doesn't scale to my personal progress and ability. Shame on Trendy.

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Personally I think all the boss and challenge rewards should be buffed by another 100%, 100^ goblin overlord is a joke, 130-140^ weaps flood the ground at wave 12 NM survival.

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Most of these sound like 'make NM easier'. Though there are some I do agree with. Spider AoE is generally just annoying. Dodging them should be what its about, when it splashes you anyway thats tedious. The ogre AoE also - not because of how large it is, but because its hard to tell how large it is. The impact range is larger than the graphic. One of those needs to be addressed.

Otherwise, increasing the hero presence for tower buff doesn't make it more fun - and honestly, I find having a tower character out in NM way more interesting than any other difficulty, because it actually does matter already. Auras are so strong on other modes that they require essentially no upkeep, changing that removes one of the essences of nightmare - tower upkeep. Maybe you don't like it, but those playing builders give them a greater sense of value, something the other difficulties ended up lacking.

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I dont play as much, and have not leveled up to 74 yet. (only 72).
so far, all i can agree with is the ogre having more range than his club.
please fix this.

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The only people capable of doing NM UMFs/Survivals are either using hacked gear, bought gear from people who farmed it using hacked gear, or exploited NM UMF2 early on. Look at the leaderboard for UMF2 NM and tell me those lvl72s aren’t using hacked gear.


Lol, there is no way in god's green Earth that someone could beat NM UMF with a level of 72... WITHOUT Hacked gear that is.

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I agree to an extent with what you are saying. I really get annoyed with the way the game is divided between the people that have cheat/hacked/cheesed their way to the top and not that they have they have breezed through the content making Trendy adjust the difficult ramp to cater the very group that is damaging the game. Nightmare for the people that are legit has become harder and harder and not because we (i'll include myself here) want the content easier because we only have the best gear you could receive (not buy!) from UMF insane. The jump to nightmare has been pretty challenging and I have enjoyed that, but the rewards from playing thru nightmare do not ramp you up from the later levels of Nightmare.

It would be nice to see the rewards from completing nightmare levels increased significantly. For example I have yet to see a pet I would even buy from over 20 nightmare campaigns and probably 4-5 challenges. Some kinda of a solid path of progression would be helpful.

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I'll agree with most of this. NM is not fun, it's tedious. The entire campaign and challenges were fun as hell on Insane. On NM, on the other hand, they're just frustrating, annoying, and tedious. I'm not saying I want it to be easier. I'm not saying I want everything given to me. I just want to have fun with this game again because I had so much fun with it before.

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To achieve balance, I'd have to agree changes have to be made.

But not with the agenda of making NM "fun" or "less annoying" or "more accessible".

The hacker argument is lame simply cos, hackers are gonna hack.

Tedious, easy, fun, difficult, they still are gonna hack.

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Tower DMG Buff for playing the tower character should be increased from 33% to 100% in Nightmare. This may seem like a lot but try playing a tower character in NM, it’s just not fun or viable.

Only one I disagree with.
100% is WAAY TOO MUCH.
I would agree with 50%, but applied to every difficulty.

P.S:
I think if they reduced the speed and jump loss of web, it would be bearable.

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That is a load of ****. Anyone can do NM Well/Alch Labs/ramparts/spires at lvl 74 with nothing equipped (check the guide forum someone made a topic where he did all of them). You can get 10m - 15m per run on spires (more so now with hardcore NM probably) (if you finish it) and weapons up to 130^ and armour at up to 80^ (from my experience). NM spires/ramparts can get you 100^ pets with good stats. Do some upgrading and move onto survival/UMF (which I can do once i do a few more upgrades).

Spiders/DEW are the only problem, dodge the spiders, try your best to avoid the DEW and make sure the ogres don't get near your crystal and you will be laughing.

I started on a 70 tower app with 100/300/100/200. I'm now a 74 tower female app with a 500/500/600/500 build (upgrades have only gotten me Resistances so far but i still have 50+ upgrades in each armour piece + 80 more in my staff) Have a **** pet but once i get a good one I'll end up with around 800-900 tower attack which is more then enough to get me started in survival to get more ^ armour/weapons.

It isn't hard.

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I personally enjoyed having a taller ramp to climb. Yea there's the people hacking or cheating their way through. So report them instead of whining here. Maybe something will get done about it.

My auras don't die in 3 seconds. In fact I only have to repair them once every other wave in most nightmare runs. That's with ~500 tower hp... something very very easily obtainable with just Insane UMF myth set. I don't know what you did wrong there, but I don't understand why your auras die so very fast. I think it's great that our stuff doesn't work as well in nightmare. Did you ever think about the alternative of increasingly stupid high numbers of hp and damage? Instead they did something I wish more companies thought about: Different scaling of what points me in different difficulties to provide a different challenge and experience in each.

I hate to have to say this... but if everyone keeps whining that it's too hard to jump from floor 1 to 50 in a single bound... where is the on going success and building of accomplishments? I think it's admirable to have created such a large ramp with their new difficulty. A lot of people can do the first few maps and I see an ever increasing number beating alch labs and throne room. Why?... because they worked up to it. I know, I know, some people think they payed their 15 dollars so they should get to ride the magic carpet of brady games guide or game genie to the top because they own the game. If that is how you feel, then perhaps you should just play in Open where you can control such things instead of in a section of the game where they are actually trying to create a game with ongoing progression.

Yea... shame on Trendy for creating content you can work up towards if you... gasp... build up to it from one area/challenge to another. Yea, we should totally just turn in 30 old forks from goblins to get instant better gear to win Glitter on nightmare, or even better! How about we just all get an additional 200 points to each stat built into the calculations for damage/health/everything because we deserve a game to be easier instead of challenging with constant new content to enjoy every month.

Now THAT sounds like an awesome game... almost like certain other games with daily's you mindlessly grind every day over and over for lack of willingness or ability to do other/better things to progress. I'm totally sad the entire game, including the hardest end content, doesn't scale to my personal progress and ability. Shame on Trendy.


Going along with your analogy, Trendy forgot to build floors 30-49. :P

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Maybe they just need another difficulty level that is a logical progression from insane same as insane is from hard, etc. Leave nightmare as the ridiculous difficutly it is and give something else to the casual players who have finished insane campaign and now don't know where to go.

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That is a load of ****. Anyone can do NM Well/Alch Labs/ramparts/spires at lvl 74 with nothing equipped (check the guide forum someone made a topic where he did all of them). You can get 10m - 15m per run on spires (more so now with hardcore NM probably) (if you finish it) and weapons up to 130^ and armour at up to 80^ (from my experience). NM spires/ramparts can get you 100^ pets with good stats. Do some upgrading and move onto survival/UMF (which I can do once i do a few more upgrades).

Spiders/DEW are the only problem, dodge the spiders, try your best to avoid the DEW and make sure the ogres don't get near your crystal and you will be laughing.

I started on a 70 tower app with 100/300/100/200. I'm now a 74 tower female app with a 500/500/600/500 build (upgrades have only gotten me Resistances so far but i still have 50+ upgrades in each armour piece + 80 more in my staff) Have a **** pet but once i get a good one I'll end up with around 800-900 tower attack which is more then enough to get me started in survival to get more ^ armour/weapons.

It isn't hard.


In that guide in the forums, he does it with Insane Glitter gear, which he had to farm. He was also only able to do the first two waves. Perhaps you should read before you post. Also, I have completed Ramparts and Endless Spires on Nightmare over 20 times each and not once have I received a pet, not once have I received a weapon with more than 117^ (because they don't drop), and one only receives about 4M mana from it. There is no 10M - 15M. This happens all too often: you people who boast everything is easy because you are able to complete all the content grossly exaggerate what you receive from these maps. Post the real ****, stop exaggerating, and perhaps pay more attention to what the map rewards other than say "Oh, I did UMF1 Insane and got weapons with 90^." No, you didn't. Insane UMF1 upgrades cap at or near a mere 76^. Nightmare Ramparts and Endless Spires weapons cap at 117^, maybe 120^. Don't say this is because of luck and RNG, I have looked through hundreds of weapons and not found one above 117^. And you don't get 10M - 15M for each run, stop compensating for your small *****es. Get your heads out of your asses.

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As a preface, I love a challenge and was definitely looking forward to Nightmare. I did enjoy going through all of the campaign maps (except Summit) on Nightmare. But with almost every patch, Nightmare has become an increasing exercise in frustration, especially on higher content.

The only people capable of doing NM UMFs/high MM Survivals are either using hacked gear, bought gear from people who farmed it using hacked gear, or exploited NM UMF2 early on. Look at the leaderboard for UMF2 NM and tell me those lvl72s aren’t using hacked gear. Seriously you could take out 98% of the hackers by just banning everyone who completed UMF2 NM after 7.14

I like constant patches but many of these patches have made playing NM much worse. Nothing has been done to make it more fun or accessible for most players. There is no easy way to progress through campaign NM to achieve the gear necessary to tackle other NM challenges.

Playing a tower character is extremely frustrating right now. Not only did you die die die die die die before, but now you have to wait twice as long to respawn? Wait you need to repair a barricade that an ogre is fighting? Too bad, his swipe just killed you in 1 hit from a club that that is longer than your repair range. Don’t even try UMF/HC NM.

I don’t mean to just be complaining and I’d like to offer some serious suggestions to make playing NM more fun and improved to better prepare for UMF/Survivals:


  • Increase EXP for killing Nightmare mobs by 500%-1000%. This seems like a lot but really isn't when it takes about 14m exp to go from 70 to 74. Right now the common method for 99% of the players to go from 70 to 74 is doing a very boring Insane Glitterheim grind. Ideally you should be able to take a 70 char with Insane UMF gear and progress through the campaign and hit 74 around the time you beat the Goblin Mech.

  • Change Spider's AoE web to single targets only. It makes clusters of tower’s a joke, it can splash onto invisible heroes, and in general isn't that fun to play against. Even with single-targetting there are enough spiders to web all the towers 10x over

  • Add 1-2s invulnerability after getting webbed before you can get re-webbed. Currently getting webbed is a death sentence, you get webbed once, webbed again, and then death.

  • Increase the DU for all Nightmare maps (or at least UMF) by 10-20%. It would open up for more strategy, encourage staying a pure tower-builder, and add more variety.

  • Reduce Nightmare Ogre’s attack range by 15%/fix the range to match the graphic. Based on the club alone you cannot tell where its going to hit. Its almost impossible to repair a barricade under attack as an Apprentice because range is just as far as your repair range and you cant really see that based on it's attack.

  • Reduce Nightmare Ogre’s HP scaling by about 20% in UMF. 8.5M Ogres on the first wave is just too much unless you already have 225^ gear and tower's cant kill them efficiently. It's fine if later waves get up to 8M+ but at least give players the chance to build up for the first few waves. Fighting 5M HP Ogres on W1, 6M on 2nd, etc is much more reasonable.

  • Allow respawns on NON-hardcore NM UMFs. This would let people at least have a chance at getting to higher waves on it, and if they really wanted the better loot they could click HC NM. A split NM and HC-NM UMF is the way to go here.

  • Increase aura and trap life in NM by 20% OR restore their effectiveness. It's fine to have very weak auras that are effective, or to have durable auras that are weaker, but why do we have both weak auras that aren't effective? Besides, aren't we getting Djinns which will even further rape traps/auras?

  • Tower DMG Buff for playing the tower character should be increased from 33% to 50%/70% in Nightmare. This may seem like a lot but try playing a tower character, it’s just not fun or viable in NM UMF/HC.

  • Improve loot for playing Nightmare Campaign/Challenge maps. Chest Loot should scale about 25% better in campaign(why are we getting torn items?), Improve loot on Tier2/3 maps, and Improve boss rewards by 50%-80%. Playing through all the campaign maps in sequence should prepare you well enough to at least start on Survival/UMFs. Ideally the loot obtained from NM Summit should be slightly worse than whats obtained from mid level UMF/Survival.


Thanks for your time and consideration.


Maybe you're just bad?

Thanks for your time and consideration.

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Logical argument, silly thread.
Nightmare was designed for the "top" bracket of players.
Not to sound elitist, but players are slowly making their way INTO this bracket through the EXACT method we all did from square one. Farm, farm, farm.
I don't mean to step on any toes, but seriously, if you don't want a challenge worth a large portion of your time, stick to a difficulty that meets your instant-gratification needs.

All of this being said, Eigen, a person with an intellect that you've displayed here, would know that the 're-balancing' of our new great challenge would certainly ruin any and all difficulty for those of us who are actually fighting our way through to the top. There are difficult Insane Challenge maps/modes, and there are "easy" Nightmare maps/modes. These are transitional maps to carry you through to the next content. If you cannot surpass the challenges presented to you in the transitory stages, you do not earn the right to obtain the rewards that follow.

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Don't worry, if they dont make NM fun for you guys. D3 february 1st 2012.


ye join the club

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Nope no club.

OP: I agree with your proposals.


dont worry d3 doesnt need an awful player like you anyways

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In that guide in the forums, he does it with Insane Glitter gear, which he had to farm. He was also only able to do the first two waves. Perhaps you should read before you post. Also, I have completed Ramparts and Endless Spires on Nightmare over 20 times each and not once have I received a pet, not once have I received a weapon with more than 117^ (because they don't drop), and one only receives about 4M mana from it. There is no 10M - 15M. This happens all too often: you people who boast everything is easy because you are able to complete all the content grossly exaggerate what you receive from these maps. Post the real ****, stop exaggerating, and perhaps pay more attention to what the map rewards other than say "Oh, I did UMF1 Insane and got weapons with 90^." No, you didn't. Insane UMF1 upgrades cap at or near a mere 76^. Nightmare Ramparts and Endless Spires weapons cap at 117^, maybe 120^. Don't say this is because of luck and RNG, I have looked through hundreds of weapons and not found one above 117^. And you don't get 10M - 15M for each run, stop compensating for your small *****es. Get your heads out of your asses.


lol? I've run nightmare spires 50+ times. Weapons go up to 132^, armour goes up to 90^, pets in tavern have been up to 100^

I started on a 70 tower app with 100/300/150/200 which you can buy for a couple of mil from any player shop after a few runs on insane ramparts. You don't need to do all 5 waves the first time through, i couldn't kill the ogres at first but as i looted the chests i got some mythical armour with 80-100 in each tower stat. Now spires is a 50/50 win (i lose if all 3 ogres go for the lone crystal). Waves 1 - 4 will get you 5m at most. The final wave yields around 5m-10m from just the junk around the map.

Also im one person with a single head with a single ***. You don't need to finish the map to get the best loot, chests generally will yield the best **** and you can easily get 500+ in tower stats (with some upgrades) via just looting chests.

Spiders are easy, don't stand still and L2Dodge. DEW are the only real problem on the final wave where they will one hit you/destroy your ****/spawn camp but that can be avoided by camping your towers.

App Towers with a couple of snares works rather well for me, loot and build your toon as you go.

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So your asking to make nightmare esier? Why don't you wake up. They already made insane easy when it should be insane. The fact that people are beating a nightmare difficulty should make them want to make it harder. If I worked at trendy I would make everything 100% harder than it is now so the levels would not be so boring. If you want to be the best at a game don't ask to make things easy because... well because you might as well play runescape.

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So your asking to make nightmare esier? Why don't you wake up. They already made insane easy when it should be insane. The fact that people are beating a nightmare difficulty should make them want to make it harder. If I worked at trendy I would make everything 100% harder than it is now so the levels would not be so boring. If you want to be the best at a game don't ask to make things easy because... well because you might as well play runescape.


If people are beating nightmare difficulty that should make them happy that they made a game that is accessible enough and fun enough that people care enough to finish it. If no one beats nightmare difficulty then they have absolutely failed as a game company.

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