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"I don't think even 10%-15% of people EVER WILL, OR SHOULD, beat Nightmare"


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Quoted from Community Manager JDanford http://forums.trendyent.com/showthread.php?35201-Spider-Mechanics-are-f-n-stupid&p=263648[[979,hashtags]]

Hmmm...well then correct me if I'm wrong as I flesh out some thoughts. With 7.14 buffing nightmare loot and making wave 1 nightmare deeperwells equivalent to wave 14 glitter insane, nightmare mode will be the only way to get the best loot in the game. The best loot in the game will also be required to defeat the hardest maps and challenges in the game. Mr.Danford believes less than 10% of the playerbase will or SHOULD beat nightmare, therefore he believes less than 10% of the playerbase SHOULD get the best loot, and less than 10% SHOULD be able to beat the hardest challenges. So since only the top 9% of players will be able to acquire the best loot, 91% of the playerbase is going to be forced to buy said loot from those players, and according to Danford, that's how it should be. Hm... that's certainly interesting...

Continuing my thoughts on Nightmare mode:

"...the new "Nightmare" difficulty mode, yield(s) new "Mythical"-quality loot and introduc(es) the new 'Eternia Shard' enemies throughout the original campaign (which has been re-balanced specifically for this mode). " -Jeremy Stieglitz

So furthermore if I'm understanding correctly, Trendy took quite a bit of time to develop Nightmare mode because not only did they have to make things harder, they had to go back to every existing map and 'balance' them for nightmare mode and add in the new nightmare mobs. That's great, except now I'm confused because according to Trendy's community manager, less than 10% of the playerbase will or should be able to beat this new mode which they took so much time to develop and balance.

This leaves me even more confused because it would seem this new mode caters specifically to the Hardcore crowd, the top 10%, but the game as a whole largely comes off as a 'casual friendly' title. So Trendy took the time to make this new mode for the top 10%, that's wonderful, I love something to strive for, but what about...oh, I dunno, the other 90% of the players? Those who in Danfords opinion SHOULD NOT be able to beat the hardest challenges or get the best loot.

I've been following Dungeon Defenders since its Android release and grabbed it as soon as it hit steam. I was immediately impressed by Trendy's quickness to fix bugs, and release patches...but as time went on I've been extremely concerned about what direction they are trying to take Dungeon Defenders, both on the game side, as well as on the business model end. I just find it a little bit disturbing that Trendys community manager feels that only 10% should experience Dungeon Defenders in its entirety, that is, to beat the hardest challenges, and acquire the best loot.

To clarify I'm not posting this to defame or villainize Trendy or any of it's employees, I'm simply expressing my worries and concerns over a game I've grown quite fond of since its launch, I really want to see the game and its company succeed, but when I see comments like the one in the title come from those working for Trendy to work with us the Community, it just seems like they'res a breakdown in communication from us, to the community manager (whom I would hope relays the communities qualms to the devs) to those making the game design decisions.

For the many who will give me TL;DR. Read title post, understand at least one person who works for Trendy thinks 90% of all players shouldn't be able to beat the hardest challenges, understand the likelihood he's not the only one who works for Trendy that shares this thought.


P.S.

In response to those in support of keeping nightmare out of reach for the majority:

I understand nightmare is, in relation to the rest of the games content, a small portion of the whole. My qualm is although it is a small portion, it's an important portion none the less. You could relate it to climbing a mountain. Let's use ceemeeirs numbers and say you've been working really hard and made it all the way up 85% of that mountain. At that point the summit is within sight, you're almost there! However no matter how hard you try you cant reach the top, you cant finish that last 15% At this point you have two options, devote unhealthy amounts of time to trying to reach the top and behold its splendors, or pay the select few who've already reached it to get you there (aka buying mythical gear from the few who can beat nightmare)-wouldn't that be frustrating?

In response to people assuming I just want everything ezmode:

Not sure why a lot of people seem to think there are only two kinds of gamers (hardcore or casual). That's like saying there's only two class of people in the world (rich or poor). Personally I probably fall under the lower-rich, or upper-middle class (in game). I never say anywhere in my post, 'ohemgee i cant beat this is too hard make real easy for me to beat in 1 day'. I'm not really understanding why a lot of people are interpreting it that way. I just think there shouldn't be a ruling 10% or even 15, do I have an exact number to spew out? No, but it's also not my job to find that magic number, I do think one can be achieved though, or at least you can get close, and I think Dungeon Defenders still has a way to go in striking that balance.

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Perhaps the community should start opening its wallet for only 10-15% of the DLC. Seems fair, if they're going to design content that the vast majority of players can't complete.

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I agree with JDanford, It's called Nightmare mode for a reason and there right to make it challenging. Not everyone completes games they buy, it doesn't make it any less worth it.

For casuals they have everyone other mode and they can try there damned hardest on Nightmare. There not being locked out like you're trying to percieve.

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TL;DR: bolded parts.

I don't want to see bad players to beat nightmare mode anytime soon, or ever, because that means good players can't have their fun, because it would be too easy for them.
Casual good players will beat nightmare campaign maps, but not 14/14 umf, as that requires more time investment.
Hardcore bad players - does this even exist? You ought to pick up some skill if you invest that much hours into a game.
Hardcore good players will beat UMF nightmare.

Also, nightmare is small part of the content. It is nothing more than a mode with bigger numbers.

IT IS MADE FOR HARDCORE GOOD PLAYERS.

Rest should go play insane.

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You're viewing this mathematically when the developer's statement was far more colloquial than you're taking this. Any player with dedication to the game can beat Nightmare mode; therefore, 100% of players have the capacity to beat Nightmare mode.

What the developer seems to be saying is that he believes that only 15% will show the dedication required to beat Nightmare mode - and introducing a new gamemode that caters to these 15% while leaving the entirety of the game accessible to new, developed and even semi-extreme players is not a bad thing.

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Jadilus you have an awesome post. I wish all the ragers and qqers would take a lesson from you on giving constructive criticism. I've been wanting to do a topic on how to give good feed back but school and life have interfered and i won't do it half-assed.

Anyway, just a point I wanted to make. I'm by no means and elite player but I've played more in the last two days than I have in the three weeks previous. What makes this fun for me is having something to reach for. I doubt I'll ever beat ANY nightmare mode but it's fun to try. Also it's not even remotely required, they added enough content into the DLC to make it worth it for the other "81%" of folks. The Mistmire (sp) map is amazing and I had a lot of fun trying to beat it even on normal.

My main point is that without harder content then you also lose players. Trendy DOES release a lot of content for the average player. Holiday content and crystal shards on anything except insane/nightmare is for average players. Whats wrong with giving the obsessive people something to work for ;).

@ Ceron True true vote with your money. I've got no problem with that idea. That being said I'll still buy most of the DLC's. I did not buy the warping core pack because I have absolutely no interest in it.

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I agree that targeting 10% of players is loosing 90% of the market.

I'm personally one of the 90% and this is the last time I buy a DLC that I can't play until it's nerfed.

They (and their investors) will quickly realize their mistake because the DLC sales are going down (according to steam top sales), up to the point that the CEO had to announce everywhere that the complete pack will not be discounted more thinking people waiting for that was the issue.

I wish them good luck to make enough money with the 10% players left with only 1 out of 8 required to pay so the 7 others can play.

It is easy to see that this game has no future by looking at crazy nightmare armors/weapons stats you get (some +200 everywhere, some 120 ups) up to the point their only plan is to reduce all these stats in new levels...

I had fun playing this game, now it's time to move on :)

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I agree that targeting 10% of players is loosing 90% of the market.

I'm personally one of the 90% and this is the last time I buy a DLC that I can't play until it's nerfed.

They (and their investors) will quickly realize their mistake because the DLC sales are going down (according to steam top sales), up to the point that the CEO had to announce everywhere that the complete pack will not be discounted more thinking people waiting for that was the issue.

I wish them good luck to make enough money with the 10% players left with only 1 out of 8 required to pay so the 7 others can play.

It is easy to see that this game has no future by looking at crazy nightmare armors/weapons stats you get (some +200 everywhere, some 120 ups) up to the point their only plan is to reduce all these stats in new levels...

I had fun playing this game, now it's time to move on :)


Do you seriously enjoy getting everything handed to you? If you like that then open is the place for you I took the mad mana and exp encounter and wiped the floor with nightmare mode. It is fun just walking through content but it's really not that fun.

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I'm personally one of the 90% and this is the last time I buy a DLC that I can't play until it's nerfed.



Why can't you play the DLC?

I've completed it on console with weapons capped at 29 upgrades and armour 20. I Would love to whats stopping you from playing it.

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snip


Mistfire easy-normal-hard-insane
UMF easy-normal-hard-insane

Is made for you.

Lets do a little math:
- We have 2 new maps
+ 2 mission for each map
* Easy
* Normal
* Hard
* Insane
* Nightmare
- several new weapon models
- a new pet.

That is 20 different "mission", but lets say people play pvp map only on 1 difficulty. Down to 16 mission.
Lets consider the new pet with 1 mission length development time.
Lets consider all the new weapon with 3 mission length development time.

So we end up with 20 "mission" developing time.
17 of those you can enjoy as casual
3 of those you can enjoy as hardcore

17/20 = 85%
3/20 = 15%

If we look at the numbers, 5-15% people completing the nightmare difficulty of each map seems about correct.

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@Ceemeeir - You forget Nightmare on the thirteen original maps. That vastly reduces the ratio of accessible content for casuals.

What I feel the argument boils down to is this: The lion's share of dev time went into Nightmare Mode. You could argue that that is the only meaningful content in the DLCs. The devs don't want the only meaningful content to be accessible to the majority of the players. And they want the majority of players to buy the DLC anyway. Is that fair? Joe Casual doesn't go to the forums to find out what the devs' design philosophy is. They'll probably buy the DLC and be disappointed. Is that right? Is that healthy for the playerbase?

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Perhaps the community should start opening its wallet for only 10-15% of the DLC. Seems fair, if they're going to design content that the vast majority of players can't complete.


Gotta admit it has logic to it, as much as i don't like easy games i also don't enjoy paying for DLC that is beyond playable unless you are one of the very very few who can pass it.

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I understand nightmare is, in relation to the rest of the games content, a small portion of the whole. My qualm is although it is a small portion, it's an important portion none the less. You could relate it to climbing a mountain. Let's use ceemeeirs numbers and say you've been working really hard and made it all the way up 85% of that mountain. At that point the summit is within sight, you're almost there! However no matter how hard you try you cant reach the top, you cant finish that last 15%-At this point you have two options, devote unhealthy amounts of time to trying to reach the top and behold its splendors, or pay the select few who've already reached it to get you there (aka buying mythical gear from the few who can beat nightmare)- Wouldn't that be frustrating?

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20% of the original content is nightmare.
Still not big.

Also, in that 20% of "content" you get nothing more than bigger numbers and different colored mobs.

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If you can beat insane UMF.
You should have the gear to beat 1st wave UMF nightmare.
If you have ....
.... should be able to beat UMF nightmare.

If you have the gear, and can't beat it, then you and/or your tactic is bad, and you don't deserve to beat it.
UMF is only 40 mins top. If you don't have that much time in 1 sitting, then guess what, you don't deserve to beat it.

Impossible is just a big word thrown around by small men who find it easier to live in the world they've been given than to explore the power they have to change it. Impossible is not a fact. It's an opinion. Impossible is not a declaration. It's a dare. Impossible is potential. Impossible is temporary. Impossible is nothing.


My final word on this topic.

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Just because 10-15% of players will "beat" nightmare mode, as in beat everything nightmare mode has to offer, this doesn't mean that the other 85% of players (many of whom did not beat everything pre-nightmare anyways) don't have the option or capacity to play and beat some of the nightmare content. If you've completed insane glitter, there's no reason you can't beat nightmare deeper well with a decent setup and/or a couple friends. Giving people an end goal that isn't completed in the first 20 minutes after a patch hits gives everyone an end goal, including new players/casuals if they want to put the time in eventually.

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Well what did you expect? They already got everybody's money knowing people would buy it before finding out that it caters to 10% of the games community. It makes sense now seeing as you would have to buy the bundle to even access it.

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Seems like some of you are mistaking what I'm saying for QQ, understand I can almost tackle most of nightmare, just a matter of time, that's not really my problem, my problem is I feel like Trendy doesn't really have a clear direction of where they want to take DD, or if they do, they're not communicating it very well.

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My first thought was to say wow Jer what a douche. Then i thought about it. Ok so, look at the achievement statistics for example. The achs are all actually really easy to complete and yet they are shockingly low, what I think the statement was a reflection is that most people simple won't be bothered with doing it.

The difficulty, balancing, etc will continue but even if it were perfectly balanced most ppl still wouldn't be bothered to do it, I mean so many never even complete UMF Insane.

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I understand nightmare is, in relation to the rest of the games content, a small portion of the whole. My qualm is although it is a small portion, it's an important portion none the less. You could relate it to climbing a mountain. Let's use ceemeeirs numbers and say you've been working really hard and made it all the way up 85% of that mountain. At that point the summit is within sight, you're almost there! However no matter how hard you try you cant reach the top, you cant finish that last 15%-At this point you have two options, devote unhealthy amounts of time to trying to reach the top and behold its splendors, or pay the select few who've already reached it to get you there (aka buying mythical gear from the few who can beat nightmare)- Wouldn't that be frustrating?


I devote unhealthy amounts of time trying to achieve what few can't. If you can't climb Mt. Everest, please have Trendy remove the top 15% of the mountain so that your time is justified and you can leave knowing that you did it despite the odds against you (or for you considering you don't want something so hard it really challenges you).

If 1 person can beat UMF 2.0 Nightmare, then everyone can. There is no excuse for saying impossible if it can be done. Those 15%... what do they have that you don't? Better computer? Better mouse? No. Just skill. That is something you can develop if you practice... if you like the game enough... if you want to get 30+ hours per $1 you spend on a game. I can't buy this kind of entertainment value from a movie ticket! $12 for 2 hours of entertainment at a movie? I'm thrilled with the content I got from this game even before nightmare came out. If you beat insane difficulty, did you get your money's worth of entertainment? If not, then you might not want to keep playing this game.

If you enjoy the ongoing challenge like I do, then work hard to beat the challenges. They aren't impossible... just hard. You can get the loot if you try. I know this because someone had to have done it for the good loots everyone is gaga over is available to buy in the shops. In fact, if you need an edge, you can buy that edge from other players. But someone did it with gear from before the expansion. If that is possible, then you can do it too... if you care.

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The problem is not that it's impossible for the 90% to get there, it's that they keep changing the rules of the game so frequently that keeps putting the people who haven't had as much time to play as others well behind.

They introduce awesome new items for those already powerful enough to find them, and nerf the things that everyone else is using.
The latest patch which changed piercing shot cooldown time was a disaster for me, since I practically relied on it because my weapon takes about 90 seconds to reload. I lost two thirds of my DPS while people who already had far better gear are now gaining even better gear.
Can I join them? No, I just get "forcibly removed" and probably rightfully so because I can imagine I would genuinely be useless.
So all I can do is spend hours on hard/insane survivals making a few million mana each time, the same amount that some of the items the "10%" are getting in their first wave.

So yeah, that's my problem with it, I don't expect it to be easy but you're making it easier for the people who were already overpowered and making it harder for everyone else.

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no offense majormer but there's not much skill involved in the game anymore, afking on survival to grab loot, farming for hundreds of hours so you can level the stuff, then you just sit in an aura and hold down lmb while everything dies in a second.. that doesn't take skill. it takes spare time, and lots of it.

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The problem is not that it's impossible for the 90% to get there, it's that they keep changing the rules of the game so frequently that keeps putting the people who haven't had as much time to play as others well behind.

They introduce awesome new items for those already powerful enough to find them, and nerf the things that everyone else is using.
The latest patch which changed piercing shot cooldown time was a disaster for me, since I practically relied on it because my weapon takes about 90 seconds to reload. I lost two thirds of my DPS while people who already had far better gear are now gaining even better gear.
Can I join them? No, I just get "forcibly removed" and probably rightfully so because I can imagine I would genuinely be useless.
So all I can do is spend hours on hard/insane survivals making a few million mana each time, the same amount that some of the items the "10%" are getting in their first wave.

So yeah, that's my problem with it, I don't expect it to be easy but you're making it easier for the people who were already overpowered and making it harder for everyone else.


Agreed, that's a good point I forgot to make in my original post.

I also agree with rtil on the time>skill argument.

I see your point as well grienne, it's just the keyword should is what bothered me most about his statement.

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