Spider Mechanics are f'n stupid

For the first time ever WOWs #s dropped a few million. (except for the china ban a few years back) The game has gotten so easy people are leaving left and right enough to actually drop their #s.

The game has been around for many years. Players just look for something new after awhile, and most come back later to check out what they have missed.

The game has been around for many years. Players just look for something new after awhile, and most come back later to check out what they have missed.

Well 8 months ago they were down 1 mil subs. They are now down 2.5 mil subs. Thats a big chunk even for them. They have been falling for 10 straight months now.

We do plan to continue to balance and improve things in our game. Including Spiders.

However... this is Nightmare mode. I don't make the decisions but in my humble opinion... I don't think the average, or even 10%-15% of people ever will, or should, beat Nightmare mode. As we continue forward, better strats will be created. Better gear will be found. The kicker is that more mobs will be added to the mode >=]

We are always open to suggestions and truly appreciate them!

And half the people here are complaining about it being annoying, not that x percent will only clear it.

The really endgame stuff should always provide a big challenge, but it has to be enjoyable to undertake. IT IS NOT.

I was one of the 0.2 percent (generous percentage, it was less but I can't remember how much less) who killed the final boss in patch 2.2 in Wow before they nerfed him (they nerfed him super hard)
It was the hardest thing in that game including cthun, it was extremely unforgiving , you needed elaborate tactics that changed over 4-5 phases over a 20 minute + boss fight and it had a lot of multitasking, one mistake from anyone and you wouldn't make the timer, but most importantly it was completely fair.
(this was back when wow endgame stuff was hard as nails, after that patch it turned into a casual game gearfest)

You were always in control, no randomness or glitchyness was involved, ALL of the mechanics were interesting and fun (nothing laborious no ridiculous rng) and if you did make a mistake it was even fascinating to see it all fall apart like a house of cards over the next several minutes.

It was the most fun to be had in that game and of all the time I wasted on wow that is one of the few redeeming things about the game.

Things in this game fall apart too, yet somehow it's not fulfulling to complete and attempt nightmare maps, and it's not fun, at all.
The glitching is more 'fun' than the rest of it.

You guys have a plan and ideas of what the game should be but your execution is ****in terrible.

Here is what your game comes down to : http://steamcommunity.com/id/alilsneaky/screenshot/648748577978228570
This is taken after freeing 2 ogres out of moonwalk limbo and killing another stuck grunt and an extra trap killing a stuck spider , placed only just for the occasion because it happens constantly there.
Did your patch catch that spot? how about the 20 odd other ones where mobs get stuck? How about them getting stuck in the spawnholes in the walls? Pathing is the least of the problems with the dlc maps.

Why did I pay for this again? Why was this released like this again?
The rest of nightmare mode is playtested as much as the **** in this screenshot, not at all.
I don't care if you'd double the time between waves, nerf spider dmg to 0, give 900 up loot if you lose, autokill all enemies 1 sec before timer expires and give unlimited lives, it would still be annoying as f*ck.

Based on my limited exposure to the spiders thus far I think something needs to change with them beyond what is in the 7.14 patch notes. There are a few options, any of which would go a long way, I think.

First is the already mentioned spider nerf along the lines of removing some of the many effects they have.

Another would be leaving them as they are but severly limiting their numbers. As it stands right now I'd rather deal two 5 million HP ogres than get webbed by a single spider, yet ogres are enemies that we don't often see in large numbers (comparatively, anyway) while spiders come early, often, and bring a truckload of friends.

Still another option is to heavily nerf their damage output while making their webs targetable and removable. I can deal with the incapacitation element so long as there is an answer for it. That said, though, the enemy that incapacitates me or my defenses I don't think should have the ability to destroy me or those defenses in one or two hits. Just seems a bit OP to me that a single enemy can remove my ability to defend myself and deal enough damage that it's target is dead before said effect wears off, especially when they come in vast numbers like the spiders do.

I will mention again that my experience with spiders thus far is extremely limited and my opinions here may well be unfounded because I simply have yet to find an effective way of dealing with them. Avoidance is great when it's possible, but with the number of spiders that spawn in some modes, I don't think it's in any way a realistic expectation.

When 90% of the community is telling you the spiders are a stupid mechanic and only 10% are telling you they are ok then you have a poorly designed mechanic.

Those 10% are people who you could anything you want to. Make ogres invincible and they would still play you're game.

Those 90% will eventually leave after being slapped in the face over and over.

When 90% of the community is telling you the spiders are a stupid mechanic and only 10% are telling you they are ok then you have a poorly designed mechanic.

Those 10% are people who you could anything you want to. Make ogres invincible and they would still play you're game.

Those 90% will eventually leave after being slapped in the face over and over.

+ you don't have to make it easier, just less frustrating.
If that is too much to ask so is buying future dlc (oh wait you already suckered us into that one to be able to play nightmare)

For the first time ever WOWs #s dropped a few million. (except for the china ban a few years back) The game has gotten so easy people are leaving left and right enough to actually drop their #s.

I had left before this, but I remember reading that the original drop in numbers corresponded to some guy named Ghostcrawler making about the same statement that JDanford just made. They made the Cata raids so ridiculously hard that the carrot no longer was even in the site of many "casual raiders" and that even some of the "hardcore" players felt like it was becoming "cheap" or that you had to be in a top 5 raiding guild to have a chance at content.

The recent "easy" focus was in response to the huge drop in numbers. I wont lie, my problem wasnt really because of difficulty in WoW, it was boredom. The game just eventually starting getting old to me.

And half the people here are complaining about it being annoying, not that x percent will only clear it.

The really endgame stuff should always provide a big challenge, but it has to be enjoyable to undertake. IT IS NOT.

I was one of the 0.2 percent (generous percentage, it was less but I can't remember how much less) who killed the final boss in patch 2.2 in Wow before they nerfed him (they nerfed him super hard)
It was the hardest thing in that game including cthun, it was extremely unforgiving , you needed elaborate tactics that changed over 4-5 phases over a 20 minute + boss fight and it had a lot of multitasking, one mistake from anyone and you wouldn't make the timer, but most importantly it was completely fair.
(this was back when wow endgame stuff was hard as nails, after that patch it turned into a casual game gearfest)

You were always in control, no randomness or glitchyness was involved, ALL of the mechanics were interesting and fun (nothing laborious no ridiculous rng) and if you did make a mistake it was even fascinating to see it all fall apart like a house of cards over the next several minutes.

It was the most fun to be had in that game and of all the time I wasted on wow that is one of the few redeeming things about the game.

Things in this game fall apart too, yet somehow it's not fulfulling to complete and attempt nightmare maps, and it's not fun, at all.
The glitching is more 'fun' than the rest of it.

You guys have a plan and ideas of what the game should be but your execution is ****in terrible.

Here is what your game comes down to : http://steamcommunity.com/id/alilsneaky/screenshot/648748577978228570
This is taken after freeing 2 ogres out of moonwalk limbo and killing another stuck grunt and an extra trap killing a stuck spider , placed only just for the occasion because it happens constantly there.
Did your patch catch that spot? how about the 20 odd other ones where mobs get stuck? How about them getting stuck in the spawnholes in the walls? Pathing is the least of the problems with the dlc maps.

Why did I pay for this again? Why was this released like this again?
The rest of nightmare mode is playtested as much as the **** in this screenshot, not at all.
I don't care if you'd double the time between waves, nerf spider dmg to 0, give 900 up loot if you lose, autokill all enemies 1 sec before timer expires and give unlimited lives, it would still be annoying as f*ck.

This a thousand times. I LOVED Dark Souls and Demon Souls, the are EXTREMELY tough and unforgiving games. But there were always tactics to learn, and if you died, you knew that the only person's fault was your own. DD being cheap and glitchy, apparently magically makes me a "casual" gamer now....

Saying you expect 10-15% to actually beat it is one thing. If you're designing so that only 10-15% have a CHANCE at beating it means another thing completely. ALL game content should be designed so that 100% of your playerbase COULD beat it, if they put in the time and effort to learn tactics, get gear, etc.

Glitches, cheapness, etc is tolerable in an SP game because, well you're just trying to beat the game. In an online game these are game-breaking problems. There shouldnt be exploitable glitches, bosses/mobs that are just cheap and rely on more luck than skill, rampant hacking, et al.

Fix your game Trendy.

I do not have a problem with the mechanics of spiders. They are there to keep you moving and thinking of how to properly setup your defences.

BUT WTF wave 4... 100 spiders 1/3 of all mobs.... later there are thousands of spiders. You can simply not longer evade them if the whole F*** map is covered inch by inch with spiders.

So either make them like Orges that you only get 3-10 per wave or simply change their mechanic/life.
They are fine as special mobs to make your life hard, but they make up the majority of enemy mobs which is neck breaking and currently makes me want to throw my pc out of the window after 10 minutes of gameplay.

Not really a post to complain, but this link might be enlightening to some:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DemonicSpiders

[QUOTE]
Demonic Spiders: the bane of players everywhere, these are the enemies that will make you scream in fury (or quake in fear) each time you see them. A product of poor (or, perhaps, malicious) playtesting, these are the guys which will defeat you over and over again using tactics that just seem unfair at times.
The defining trait of Demonic Spiders is that they are random or common (in the case of games where Random Encounters don't happen) enemies that seem unfairly powerful. These are not dangerous because they distract from something else, they are likely what kills you when you're distracted. They are not dangerous because they push you into hazards, they are enough of a hazard by themselves.
Demonic Spiders are the enemies that, for lack of a better phrase, have the deck stacked in their favor. They have more Hit Points, they go swifter, they come in swarms, attacking them deals damage to you, etc. Basically, these are the enemies with annoying abilities granted to them by the programmers that make them exponentially more dangerous than any other random enemy, but no less common.

Demonic Spiders are usually made up of many of the following characteristics:

Prevent you from acting as they kill you (a big one).
Frequently employ debilitating Standard Status Effects (e.g. Sleep, Paralyze, or Charm).
Deliver lethal or near-lethal attacks that are virtually impossible to dodge.
Or attacks that ignore accuracy/evasion/defense outright.
Have a larger melee attack radius than you do when combined with this, making it all but impossible for a melee-oriented character to get close enough to do his job without getting killed horribly.
Appears suddenly at a very close range, like a Wall Master.
Or are almost impossible to see or track at any range.
Can duplicate itself or summon reinforcements with no apparent limit on how many or how often.
Require a special type of resources to defeat without extreme skill and concentration and some luck, and that resource is slow to get back. Typically, you'd have use rare precious health/magic replenish kits in case you encounter more demonic spiders, but you'd continue on low health/magic/ammo if there were no more demonic spiders ahead.
Can take more punishment than an M1 Abrams tank.
Move in manners impossible for your character (often with greater speed than you'll ever have).
Are capable of nullifying your primary methods of attack/defense (often reflecting or absorbing it).
In action games, may have melee based attacks (or counter-attacks) that quickly hit you from a fair distance away and then cause them to retreat in an equally swift manner.
In RPGs with a Class and Level System, have the ability to take your hard-earned levels away from you, particularly when there's no easy way to gain them back after the battle and you have to gain them back the hard way.[/QUOTE]

Aside from the highly amusing/relevant name of the trope, the DD spiders fall into six of eleven categories pretty easily. Frankly they are some of the most mean-spirited and unfun enemies I've had the misfortune of fighting against in a game (and I've played lots of games, I assure you). I get that 'nightmare mode is supposed to be hard', but I can't help but think that the existence of spiders (and other common traits of nightmare mode) is more about what the developers think nightmare mode should be like, not what it should actually be like. As is, nightmare feels a lot like and borrows several key elements from Diablo 2's hell mode, where resists are reduced by a ton and enemy immunities are far more common (and like DD's nightmare mode, completely and utterly gear-dependent), which is kind of odd for a game that was initially a TD game with relatively modest RPG elements. I trust that the game will improve with patches, but it seems like some of these design decisions should have been caught prior to the update - at least to prevent all the incessant whining on these forums.

Some ideas for less incredibly unfun and anti-social spiders (mix/match):

1) Make them spawn from normal monster gates. (reduces randomness/unpredictability)
2) Make it so they only ensnare either towers or heroes with their web, while only attacking the other, or some variation on this. (reduces randomness/unpredictability)
3) Make them come in smaller amounts.
4) Provide the players a visual warning that more spiders have arrived.
5) Lower their stats.
6) More generically, reduce the number of mechanics they have - random spawning, jumping, ensnaring webs are all special abilities they have.

Trendy doesnt have time to test there patches they let us do the testing.

We do plan to continue to balance and improve things in our game. Including Spiders.

However... this is Nightmare mode. I don't make the decisions but in my humble opinion... I don't think the average, or even 10%-15% of people ever will, or should, beat Nightmare mode. As we continue forward, better strats will be created. Better gear will be found. The kicker is that more mobs will be added to the mode >=]

We are always open to suggestions and truly appreciate them!

I don't think even 1% will beat the new Nightmare UMF2 after this patch (legitimately). I agree with a lot of the posters with spiders being too strong in too many categories. They web, jump at you, prevent you from using anything and in nightmare UMF2, one shot you. Just poorly executed implementation for a mob. Ninjas were bad enough. No one likes not being able to control or move their character.

I think the new mobs should have a chance to disconnect you from the game to make it more of a challenge on top of current DC issues. There should also be mobs that put you to sleep and leave you like that until the timers run out. We need mobs that digest you and keep you in their stomach for the rest of the wave giving you a fps view as they destroy your towers one by one and laugh at the destruction they have sown. Mobs that you can only do 1 damage to it as they attack the crystal for 1 dmg giving you the entire wave timer to whittle them down from their 100 million hp. These mobs sound so fun and exciting! that I can't but help smile as the average player tears their hair out in frustration as they pray to their false gods. Blood for the Blood God, skulls for the Skull Throne!

Sorry went to a tangent there. Players can only be frustrated for so long before they say F*ck this sh*t and move to a game more worthy of their time unless of course you like getting punched in the balls then this game is for you!

We do plan to continue to balance and improve things in our game. Including Spiders.

However... this is Nightmare mode. I don't make the decisions but in my humble opinion... I don't think the average, or even 10%-15% of people ever will, or should, beat Nightmare mode. As we continue forward, better strats will be created. Better gear will be found. The kicker is that more mobs will be added to the mode >=]

We are always open to suggestions and truly appreciate them!

And this right here is why new people won't stick around.

We pay for Nightmare but aren't supposed to be able to complete because we are what? Bad customers? Wrong skin color? Not speaking your national tongue? Don't like your cooking?!

**** this, I'm out, you guys aren't worth the ****ing time it takes to write this post.

A simple fix to the spiders. Have them spawn through the gates, like all other enemies.

Currently spiders have more abilities than any other enemy in the game.

Gas Trap/Ensnare immunity
Webbing Players to make them useless
Webbing Towers to make them useless
Leaping around like Batman
Small Size which makes them hard to hit or see
Spawning from random locations that are completely unpredicatable
One shot killing you
They completely obliterate towers even after the so called nerf (So much for tower builds in a tower defense game)

That's 8 abilities!!! Dear god are they a jack of all trades.


Honestly, they should be comparable to other enemy types. If they spawned through the gates there abilities would become managable - and the game would play like a "Tower Defense Game". Instead this game feels like Infiltrator 101.

We do plan to continue to balance and improve things in our game. Including Spiders.

However... this is Nightmare mode. I don't make the decisions but in my humble opinion... I don't think the average, or even 10%-15% of people ever will, or should, beat Nightmare mode. As we continue forward, better strats will be created. Better gear will be found. The kicker is that more mobs will be added to the mode >=]

We are always open to suggestions and truly appreciate them!

I am all for making the game hard and not an easy grind festival, but having ppl buy DLC that is nxt to impossible to complete has me baffled and also stopped me buying any DLC so far on my other 2 PC's in the house that the family uses.

As far as i can see the DLC is for Ultra Uber players with ultra uber gear who will get better Ultra Uber gear, and then sell it in AFK stores meaning those who own the DLC the other %85+ will be left paying real currencie for the DLC and then mana for any items from an AFK shop the DLC produces?

Being i do not trust AFK shops as i have seen plenty of suspicious items i find this logic has a fault.

Less than 15% of the people will ever see easy mode either...Do you want that erased too?
I see no reason to play anything but insane or nightmare after deeper well. Normal and easy aren't needed. Yet I am not here asking for their removal. Only someone trying to beat every level on every setting has any use for easy.

If they balanced the game correctly we wouldn't need Nightmare. Easy is painful due to the mobs walking so freakin slow, medium is a joke, Hard feels like most other games normal difficulty, and then Insane is 5x harder... I just don't get it.

For the love of gamers Trendy stop making new sh*t and just balance what you have. Give us linear progression! Medium Deeper Well should be harder than Easy Summit, Hard DW harder than Medium Summit.. and so on. That way we can play and progress the way everyone is used to, the way it should be.

Less than 15% of the people will ever see easy mode either...Do you want that erased too?
I see no reason to play anything but insane or nightmare after deeper well. Normal and easy aren't needed. Yet I am not here asking for their removal. Only someone trying to beat every level on every setting has any use for easy.

There is a difference between can't and dont want to, so your comparison s u c k s...

I am all for making the game hard and not an easy grind festival, but having ppl buy DLC that is nxt to impossible to complete has me baffled and also stopped me buying any DLC so far on my other 2 PC's in the house that the family uses.

As far as i can see the DLC is for Ultra Uber players with ultra uber gear who will get better Ultra Uber gear, and then sell it in AFK stores meaning those who own the DLC the other %85+ will be left paying real currencie for the DLC and then mana for any items from an AFK shop the DLC produces?

Being i do not trust AFK shops as i have seen plenty of suspicious items i find this logic has a fault.

The DLC itself is just part one of the shards which doesn't even include nightmare. It does come with 1 campaign mission 1 pvp mission and 2 challenges. But I guess that isn't what you consider DLC? Or maybe you don't realize that it can be played on easy-insane aswell. The nightmare mode was a bonus for those buying all 4 upcoming DLCs. Not to mention its been said since they started talking about nightmare that it was for the hardcore crowd.

None of this means you can't play it or can't beat it, just that most people won't. I won't and I'm ok with that.

I already see people crying about nightmare when just last week they were asking for guides on insane summit. Don't expect to waltz into what is suppose to be the hardest stuff the game is offering. There are 5 difficulty modes, find the one right for you.

We do plan to continue to balance and improve things in our game. Including Spiders.

However... this is Nightmare mode. I don't make the decisions but in my humble opinion... I don't think the average, or even 10%-15% of people ever will, or should, beat Nightmare mode. As we continue forward, better strats will be created. Better gear will be found. The kicker is that more mobs will be added to the mode >=]

We are always open to suggestions and truly appreciate them!

By your logic, I should only be paying 10%-15% for your DLC, since I'm not supposed to see part of it.

A simple fix to the spiders. Have them spawn through the gates, like all other enemies.

Currently spiders have more abilities than any other enemy in the game.

Gas Trap/Ensnare immunity
Webbing Players to make them useless
Webbing Towers to make them useless
Leaping around like Batman
Small Size which makes them hard to hit or see
Spawning from random locations that are completely unpredicatable
One shot killing you
They completely obliterate towers even after the so called nerf (So much for tower builds in a tower defense game)

That's 8 abilities!!! Dear god are they a jack of all trades.


Honestly, they should be comparable to other enemy types. If they spawned through the gates there abilities would become managable - and the game would play like a "Tower Defense Game". Instead this game feels like Infiltrator 101.

This. If you look at all of the creatures side by side, spiders do far more things than any other creature. The fact that they spawn anywhere and can disable defenses could be ALL they do and they would throw a heck of a wrench in players strategies.

More importantly though, regardless of the "this is Nightmare mode." comment. Spiders are not fun to fight against, they are incredibly frustrating. Difficulty is not synonyms with frustration, there are ways to increase difficulty without increasing frustration.

By your logic, I should only be paying 10%-15% for your DLC, since I'm not supposed to see part of it.

No one said you couldn't see it, that choice is yours. And there are the maps and challenges that were included so if anything it would be more like you should pay 80% if that's the logic you want to use. Poor logic, but at least put that poor logic to full use.

God people QQing about spiders. Before its Trendy the game is too easy, all i do is use my heroes and not towers.
Now its Trendy the game is too hard, my heroes get 1 shotted why can't i use my heroes?

Serious people STFU.

For Spiders go gear up your trap hunter, go figure out the spawn places of spiders and go put a trap right under it. Its instant kill! I have beat serveral NM mode maps, it takes about 4 to 5 failed attemps to get all the spider spawns. The only thing thats hard to counter about spider and on some maps they spawn ontop of crystal so u can't lay traps there, (Summit NM) But then u just need to point some towers backwards and help guard it.

Enough with the QQs noobs. If u want gear use your brain and rub 2 cells together. Its not that hard.

God people QQing about spiders. Before its Trendy the game is too easy, all i do is use my heroes and not towers.
Now its Trendy the game is too hard, my heroes get 1 shotted why can't i use my heroes?

Serious people STFU.

For Spiders go gear up your trap hunter, go figure out the spawn places of spiders and go put a trap right under it. Its instant kill! I have beat serveral NM mode maps, it takes about 4 to 5 failed attemps to get all the spider spawns. The only thing thats hard to counter about spider and on some maps they spawn ontop of crystal so u can't lay traps there, (Summit NM) But then u just need to point some towers backwards and help guard it.

Enough with the QQs noobs. If u want gear use your brain and rub 2 cells together. Its not that hard.

Its only hard because of 1 mob. Thats bad game design. If you dont know that then you're fkin stupid. Also spiders have random spawns, there are no designated spawn spots. If you cant see that either then you're double stupid.

Its only hard because of 1 mob. Thats bad game design. If you dont know that then you're fkin stupid. Also spiders have random spawns, there are no designated spawn spots. If you cant see that either then you're double stupid.

I don't think the spiders spawns are random. I could be wrong. I just don't think they are.

God people QQing about spiders. Before its Trendy the game is too easy, all i do is use my heroes and not towers.
Now its Trendy the game is too hard, my heroes get 1 shotted why can't i use my heroes?

Dude, it's not "my heroes get 1 shot, why can't I use my heroes?" It's "my hero is getting 1 shot, my towers are getting disabled, I can't repair my towers, upgrade my towers, stay alive, fight, or do anything but lose over and over."

I don't think the spiders spawns are random. I could be wrong. I just don't think they are.

They might as well be random, because they totally show up in like 14 places. I'll try and do up a map later.