Spider Mechanics are f'n stupid

Im all for Nightmare being really hard but the way it is now is just totally stupid. As it stands without any spiders, Nightmare is more challenging then Insane obviously. But what the spiders are doing just makes it go from a 8/10 on the hard scale to 18/10 on the hard scale. Spiders slow your run speed, attack rate, they remove your ability to repair and upgrade... basically every god dam thing you can not do other then turn around and say hi to the spiders as they proceed to 3 shot you. Its bad enough that they come in waves of hundreds by wave 5.

The idea of spiders dropping down behind the towers to annoy you is perfect. But they are so god dam overpowered its stupid. Remove all those mechanics and just change it so they slow your run speed and slow the attack rate of the towers. Thats it. Even the amount of damage they do needs to be toned down. There is never a time after a couple waves where there arent atleast 5 spiders on your *** keeping you in a web making you completely worthless.

You should never have a mob in any game where without it, your task is easy, with it, your task is impossible. Change this.

And Trendy, for the love of god.... test your STUFF before release.

Thank you.

Trendy, for the love of god.... test your **** before release.

rofl the only reason im replying to this is because the last 6 threads ive read end in that line. if im lying im dying.

I have to agree, they need to actually test stuff before releasing it.
I don't see that many groups being able handle every map on nightmare or even coming close to completing new UMF on nightmare.

I think the annoyance factor of spiders is fantastic, I just think they do waaay too much damage.

I think spiders are completely fine, there are just too many of them?:(

They should focus more attention on returning it to be a Tower Defense game again making all towers usable since most ppl just use traps and auras now for everything. Since spider can't f***** them up.

I think spider debuff needs to be toned down a little bit for players, but otherwise the concept and execution is fine. Maybe something like 2x slower attack instead of 5x slower attack.

It wouldnt be so bad if ya know... strenght drains actually worked in nightmare. Wave 1, 1 spider hits me right off the bat in a str drain for 6k. Theres no way your healing aura is going to do anything in this mode until its fully upgraded with an app and hunt guardian boosting it.

There was really no reason to boost hero health and then boost enemy damage. Trendy could have just fkin stuck with what they had as player health and made it balanced but right now its broken..

How about spiders just not do any damage?... they're there just to debuff you and your towers. Ya know people b|tched and moaned for a while when Ninjas jumped over the barriers. Now you got a similar mechanic that kills you even faster.

And lower their health too. I mean they are spiders, why the **** do they have alot of HP. If they lower HP(alot) im fine with everything else the way it is.

There're several ways of handling spiders so you can repair/upgrade/etc.
1) Kill/distract them (the obvious solution, since you need to kill the DEWs anyway).
2) Stealth. (stealth then move to a new position: spiders may have started firing at your old position, potentially knocking you out of stealth)
3) Adept instant upgrade/repair, and/or situational awareness (for repair, keeping the minimap helps to alert you to spider spawns)
4) Stand BEHIND your towers; they'll tend to attack the closest available offensive physical target. Do note that the web is AoE so you have to stand a short distance away too, but the right distance is still near enough to upgrade/repair.

Granted Nightmare is still in the process of tweaking.

There're several ways of handling spiders so you can repair/upgrade/etc.
1) Kill/distract them (the obvious solution, since you need to kill the DEWs anyway).
2) Stealth. (stealth then move to a new position: spiders may have started firing at your old position, potentially knocking you out of stealth)
3) Adept instant upgrade/repair, and/or situational awareness (for repair, keeping the minimap helps to alert you to spider spawns)
4) Stand BEHIND your towers; they'll tend to attack the closest available offensive physical target. Do note that the web is AoE so you have to stand a short distance away too, but the right distance is still near enough to upgrade/repair.

Granted Nightmare is still in the process of tweaking.

1) Possible, but there are too many of them at the same time (I'm talking about MM here)
2) 2 "class" out of 8
3) doesn't work under web
4) 1) + they don't come from spawn, just randomly drop from the sky.

There're several ways of handling spiders so you can repair/upgrade/etc.
1) Kill/distract them (the obvious solution, since you need to kill the DEWs anyway).
2) Stealth. (stealth then move to a new position: spiders may have started firing at your old position, potentially knocking you out of stealth)
3) Adept instant upgrade/repair, and/or situational awareness (for repair, keeping the minimap helps to alert you to spider spawns)
4) Stand BEHIND your towers; they'll tend to attack the closest available offensive physical target. Do note that the web is AoE so you have to stand a short distance away too, but the right distance is still near enough to upgrade/repair.

Granted Nightmare is still in the process of tweaking.

If you had gotten more than 1-2 waves into nightmare umf you wouldn't be saying this.
It's doable on the first waves as their numbers are somewhat limited and you can still dodge them (though still incredibly frustrating combined with knockbacks everywhere and web shots being aimed at defenses that you could rng jump into at any time).

After a few waves the ninjas pop their ugly heads up and the amount of spiders is something like this : http://cdn-www.i-am-bored.com/media/42550_lotsofspiders.jpg
Got to wave 3 and there the only viable tactic was make sure your traps were upgraded to have a bit more life and run around like a crazy man in huge circles around the map jumping around and over enemies.
It's like some really ****ty minigame on its own that has nothing to do with the rest of the game.
Might have even cleared it if 3 ogres didnt get stuck (would not have gotten to that wave if their dumbest bot of the year award AI wouldn't regularly path them into an abyss to kill them)

When you are on limited lives and one web WILL **** you up after a few waves even with blocking (lolknockbacks) on a squire then you know you are ****ed.

They just pulled a wow and made it impossible for the first week to pace their content (as there is almost none of it with this dlc so people will get bored really fast).
In a week or two they'll fix it so people can get their carrot on and be eager for the new dlc.

Can you say moooooooooooooooooooooooooo?

1) You don't need to kill all, just enough until you can do (4).
2) It's Nightmare, work in an optimized team. Personal opinion that Nightmare shouldn't be soloable, admittedly
3) You shouldn't be getting webbed unless you stop moving. You only need a fraction of a second to use instant repair/upgrade
4) They don't exactly spawn randomly, but at very specific locations

@unsubtle:

Nightmare UMF is supposed to be near impossible. Have you geared up using nightmare mixed mode loot first, just as people geared up for insane UMF using insane mixed mode loot? Also admittedly they're still balancing the whole damage/resistance issue, which may directly fix your issues, since it still seems to be a matter of not being to kill them fast enough.

Problem is that....soo many :(

2) It's Nightmare, work in an optimized team. Personal opinion that Nightmare shouldn't be soloable, admittedly

I fail to understand this point every time.
How is extra 1-7 people going to help me with their 1/7 of base damage?
- Mobs are stronger (more hp)
- There are more of them
- DU isn't increased
- Towers aren't increased in strength

- Only way to kill ogres on NM is tower spam on them or joust.

Sorry, extra peoples won't help. Maybe if we end up with 3-3-2 (apprentice,huntress,genie) pet. Good luck with that.

I fail to understand this point every time.
How is extra 1-7 people going to help me with their 1/7 of base damage?
- Mobs are stronger (more hp)
- There are more of them
- DU isn't increased
- Towers aren't increased in strength

- Only way to kill ogres on NM is tower spam on them or joust.

Sorry, extra peoples won't help. Maybe if we end up with 3-3-2 (apprentice,huntress,genie) pet. Good luck with that.

And mythical weapons and armour, which should boost that weapon damage up somewhat..

Agreed, I'm up for a challenge but spiders in their current state are just frustrating.

Especially combined with the hunter nerf which has now made them totally useless.

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1) You don't need to kill all, just enough until you can do (4).
2) It's Nightmare, work in an optimized team. Personal opinion that Nightmare shouldn't be soloable, admittedly
3) You shouldn't be getting webbed unless you stop moving. You only need a fraction of a second to use instant repair/upgrade
4) They don't exactly spawn randomly, but at very specific locations

@unsubtle:

Nightmare UMF is supposed to be near impossible. Have you geared up using nightmare mixed mode loot first, just as people geared up for insane UMF using insane mixed mode loot?

I've geared enough to benifit from the stupid scaling.
hitting harder as melee won't do anything as you get one shot outside your str aura, even when zipping around on your apprentice you will get one shot a lot by random wyvern spits that werent aimed at you (they shoot very fast projectiles on nm too it seems) or grunt cleaves that you tried to jump over and ofcourse by the many ninjas zipping across the map.

Have you tried it yourself because you really shouldn't comment about it else, there is little manouvering room on that map and things get crowded real fast, between the arrows and the wyverns and the snotballs and the webs and the ground cleaves and the ninjas and the fast spiders whose jumps can block your path at the last moment you are bound to get hit , and since healing does nothing and resists are already maxed, the extra hp from 150+^loot(my countess is already at 65k, your app would be at 10k) will not save you.

All I see on these threads is people who haven't gotten anywhere at all making assumptions about both the mechanics and the motivation for people's complaints.

Noone is complaining about it being difficult, but about it being annoying and really over the top broken.
This isn't the wow forums where slowwitted people complain about how karazan is too hard and that they want loot too.
Yet here you are brushing people off as if that is the case.

The only entertainment I'm getting out of the game right now is watching the terrible AI fall down cliffs (half of the time if you jump off they will follow you to their death), strafejumping around enemies over the abysses and jousting ogres (which their moonwalking and glitchy back and forth floating does not make any easier)

I'm curious as to how they will fix this map, I've counted well over a dozen places where mobs get stuck on geometry (which pathing won't fix and current builds rely on putting defences on several of those spots) and another dozen spots where their pathing just ****s itself.

And mythical weapons and armour, which should boost that weapon damage up somewhat..

I have mythical gear, and it doesn't make a difference. my dps is 1.3M on dummy, not enough in UMF. Takes multiple attack to kill a single spider.

I've geared enough to benifit from the stupid scaling.
hitting harder as melee won't do anything as you get one shot outside your str aura, even when zipping around on your apprentice you will get one shot a lot by random wyvern spits that werent aimed at you (they shoot very fast projectiles on nm too it seems) or grunt cleaves that you tried to jump over and ofcourse by the many ninjas zipping across the map.

Have you tried it yourself because you really shouldn't comment about it else, there is little manouvering room on that map and things get crowded real fast, between the arrows and the wyverns and the snotballs and the webs and the ground cleaves and the ninjas and the fast spiders whose jumps can block your path at the last moment you are bound to get hit , and since healing does nothing and resists are already maxed, the extra hp from 150+^loot(my countess is already at 65k, your app would be at 10k) will not save you.

All I see on these threads is people who haven't gotten anywhere at all making assumptions about both the mechanics and the motivation for people's complaints.

Noone is comparing about it being difficult, but about it being annoying and really over the top broken.

The only entertainment I'm getting out of it is watching the terrible AI fall down cliffs, strafejumping around enemies over the abysses and jousting ogres (which their moonwalking and glitchy back and forth floating does not make any easier)

I'm curious as to how they will fix this map, I've counted well over a dozen places where mobs get stuck on geometry (which pathing won't fix) and another dozen spots where their pathing just ****s itself.

Thread title was about Nightmare mode, not only nightmare UMF, I was only addressing normal nightmare mode. I agree that Nightmare UMF needs some balancing in terms of the whole crowding issue, but I would suspect you're expected to focus more on towers (and redundant tower setups to deal with spiders, etc) to get past.

(also, my sorely undergeared Ranger (about 200+ish hero hp stat) is at 19k HP, so I would think a properly geared app would have much more than that.)

I think that the spiders were a great addition to the game, they really mix things up and add a bulk of the new difficulty. But I agree that their webs are too powerful... Maybe only a 25% reduction to speeds, or allow players to attack the webs off of each other (promoting group play)

I'd love to see someone user towers in their current state in umf2 past the first 2 waves.
Even in str aura they go down extremely extremely fast (500+ tower hp stat 750+ aura str and an app guardian boosting the aura).

Got to remember repair does nothing unless you are on an overcharing apprentice, and I seriously dare you to try to repair consistently with limited lives , an ogre hitting what you are repairing and spiders and assassins on the prowl.
Oh and you'd have to be everywhere at once ...


Perhaps with new uberversions of the guardians stacked and endgame gear you'd eventually have enough tower damage to one shot the assassins and spiders, the market for guardians will be interesting if everyone needs an amazing one... and maybe you could then also use 4 apprentices (**** everyone who likes to play anything else right)

Disc launcher 2.0, selling 100 ^ app guardian for 2b perfect tower set 100^fully upped and 200^fully upped weapon will probably be the thread titles you'd see after a while in this scenario.

I'd love to see someone user towers in their current state in umf2 past the first 2 waves.

I can do first 2 waves no problem IF ogres don't get stuck.

[QUOTE]Maybe only a 25% reduction to speeds, or allow players to attack the webs off of each other (promoting group play) [/QUOTE]

This is what got to me the most. If you hadn't noticed, you can actually see the fire rate reduction on a webbed tower, as it shows up in the tower stats ('E' key). The webs slow down the tower fire rate by a factor of 10x. 10! When I first saw the webbing in a preview video, I thought "dang, that looks painful, I'll bet that's a good 50% debuff". A 50% debuff on fire rate would already be a very dangerous thing to apply to towers, but a 10x (90%, however you want to put it) debuff is just ludicrous. You might as well just have the towers not fire at all.

For a good example, I looked at the fire rate of a webbed MM tower of my apprentice (who has ~210 fire rate on towers). The fire rate went from 0.14 to 1.48 webbed, I believe. I then went back to my tavern, summoned an apprentice with ZERO fire rate on towers, and the resulting fire rate was actually about the SAME as the webbed tower at ~210 fire rate. I can't remember exactly, but they were both in the 1.4 second range. Long story short, I fully support that the web debuff on fire rate is TOO MUCH.

Trendy, please take this into serious consideration. Maybe I'm missing the big picture, but I'm not having fun with this.

Thanks,

Vetokend

SPIDERS arnt really that bad gear yourself / get a good team of four, we beat some missions before the spider neff wasn't that bad (nightmare) ofc.