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GrimPETER

Question about the huntress/Hunter Nerf

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Ah yes, cause no one will ever use it if they arent hero spec ... right. I think complaining about why I'm complaining over complainers is worse. =p


viable. look it up please before making a counter-argument -.-

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http://forums.trendyent.com/showthread.php?34373-Some-actual-data-on-Piercing-Shot-nerf&p=257504&viewfull=1[[964,hashtags]]
Your current Piercing Shot DPS is damage/cooldown. This is 150k/1.25, or 120k DPS getting nerfed down to 37.5k DPS with the new cooldown. Alternatively, your Piercing Shot DPS is reduced to about a third (31.5%).


Numbers prove PS nerf is HUGE. With my current gear it's a 25%ish damage reduction as PS spam makes up for literally 1/3 of my DPS. The Gap widens with higher gear stats, but is obviously watered down by the fact that your auto-attacks will do some nice damage.

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The only comment I have to say is that, since invis does not stop DEWs from targeting a hunter/huntress, it is completely useless, as those are the only things that really warrant worrying about.

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Can my traps be buffed to apprentice tower DPS? I would be okay with the nerfs if this happened.


Uh... Prox mines far beats MM towers in mass mob or spike damage situations, Inferno far beats fireball in mass mob situations. What sort of buff are you looking for (well other than ethereal spike trap)?

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The only comment I have to say is that, since invis does not stop DEWs from targeting a hunter/huntress, it is completely useless, as those are the only things that really warrant worrying about.


Other than the 20 ogres beating on you in UMF + any spare mobs...

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Other than the 20 ogres beating on you in UMF + any spare mobs...


Because you arn't standing on top of Quad-auras + Inferno/Proxy traps to crowd control, and you arn't moving from your one position where you seem to be getting hit by 20 ogres.

Right?

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Because you arn't standing on top of Quad-auras + Inferno/Proxy traps to crowd control, and you arn't moving from your one position where you seem to be getting hit by 20 ogres.

Right?
Exactly. Kyrn, as a ranged char, NEVER should 20 ogres be beating on you. Otherwise you aren't doing the, you know, ranged part properly.

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Guess I better start moving all my equipment. No reason to play Huntress / Hunter anymore other than placing traps.

^ This

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They ruined hunter so much by completely nerfing our arc shot. They made it 4x longer and ruined it. If anything, make it the same in PVE but in PVP make it like double. I don't even use the ability anymore and with spiders now I cant use what it was made to do. Its ruined and Trendy really screwed them up this time... Time to switch to the uber-OP squire. Your trying to make buffs/nerfs like WoW but completely failed by ruining a hero.

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i think someone sat at their desk and said, "hey lets nerf piercing shot damage AND add a 4 sec cooldown which is actually longer than 4 seconds in game... then while we're at it, we'll ninja nerf their traps outside of nightmare along with auras." incremental is a hard word bromandudes.

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I'm quoting myself here, but just in case you and some others have not seen our reasoning behind the Huntress Nerf:



At the moment there is no plan to buff the damage of PS.


Well then go plan to fire some employees because you just ruined a hero 100% and think it was a good decision. I played Hunter as my main hero but this nerf completely screwed us and I even unbinded the arc shot key. Hunters do nothing but traps now and need a HUGE buff to balance them off again. Wait to f%^! it up trendy.

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Funny, I still play my Ranger almost the same as before, only that I take a step back to PS instead of spamming it all the time. Granted it may help that I'm using an straightforward DPS focused weapon with naturally weaker PS (flamethrower) by default.

Huntress/Rangers, unlike the other classes, are in a sense a "jack of all trades" DPS character, where they can just change weapons to almost immediately change their attack strategy: Disk thrower/bone bow tries to line mobs up, keeping long range (lanes, anti-air), Crystal tracker type works better when enemies aren't quite in line but all over the place (spiders, turkeys, chokepoints), flamethrowers significantly surpass them all in DPS, but has the triple issue of elemental, close range, and lower base damage (hence weaker PS/PSS), making them most suited in chokepoints and bosses, playing more similar to melee save for being somewhat more mid-range (VW is like a ranged flamethrower, which was why the balance was out of whack), Tribow is middle of the line, gaining non-elemental damage in exchange for non-piercing, making them not quite as effective at mob clearing (which is why Sicarius probably still needs rebalancing, in my opinion), Minigun focus on ranged DPS, with the negative of being even less effective at mob clearing (abet better at mob clearing if assuming range). If you want straightforward DPS, use a straightforward DPS weapon where the DPS isn't nearly as affected by the PS/PSS nerf, Otherwise, stick to your weapon roles (which isn't straightforward DPS).

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Guess I better start moving all my equipment. No reason to play Huntress / Hunter anymore other than placing traps.


Yeah, it's a shame I spent so long gearing up my dps hunter and now it seems like it's all gone to waste now he's gimped beyond belief and a stupid choice over any other dps class.

Even with the new trap nerf, traptresses are also fairly useless in high levels now.

Sent from my HTC Desire via Tapatalk

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Piercing shot DPS against the target dummy is not why they are changing this.. Let me illuminate a bit: (psuedo fake numbers)

let's presume your gear is so-so and your PS does 30k a hit. This is based on your weapons non-elemental dmg, so higher loot drops will indeed beef this up by alot. This is my trap huntress PS, or was last time I played her.

target dummy dps: 30k/1.2 = 25k dps
lane w/ 10 mobs dps: 30k/1.2*10 = 250k dps
lane w/ 25 mobs dps: 30k/1.2*25 = 625k dps

Etc, it just scales too well. Most of the time you are indeed hitting multiple targets with PS. Here's some numbers with the cooldown changed

target dummy dps: 30k/4 = 7.5k dps
lane w/ 10 mobs dps: 30k/4*10 = 75k dps
lane w/ 25 mobs dps: 30k/4*25 = 187.5k dps

You can see that you still get decent performance against large groups, but the dps vs smaller groups really drops.

IMO, they could of done better if the damage just scaled down after it hits a mob.. So first mob in line takes 100% dmg, next 95%, etc.. Obviously, I'm spewing random numbers here for this example, but scaling the dmg down after each hit instead of increasing the couldown would definately keep the dps folks are used to but lower the mass mob slaughterfest if the player gets a good line on 30+ mobs.

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Piercing shot DPS against the target dummy is not why they are changing this.. Let me illuminate a bit: (psuedo fake numbers)

let's presume your gear is so-so and your PS does 30k a hit. This is based on your weapons non-elemental dmg, so higher loot drops will indeed beef this up by alot. This is my trap huntress PS, or was last time I played her.

target dummy dps: 30k/1.2 = 25k dps
lane w/ 10 mobs dps: 30k/1.2*10 = 250k dps
lane w/ 25 mobs dps: 30k/1.2*25 = 625k dps

Etc, it just scales too well. Most of the time you are indeed hitting multiple targets with PS. Here's some numbers with the cooldown changed

target dummy dps: 30k/4 = 7.5k dps
lane w/ 10 mobs dps: 30k/4*10 = 75k dps
lane w/ 25 mobs dps: 30k/4*25 = 187.5k dps

You can see that you still get decent performance against large groups, but the dps vs smaller groups really drops.

IMO, they could of done better if the damage just scaled down after it hits a mob.. So first mob in line takes 100% dmg, next 95%, etc.. Obviously, I'm spewing random numbers here for this example, but scaling the dmg down after each hit instead of increasing the couldown would definately keep the dps folks are used to but lower the mass mob slaughterfest if the player gets a good line on 30+ mobs.


I think the intention however IS to keep it from being used as mainly a bump to DPS, but keeping the laneclearing intact.

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I think you guys are way off when it comes to invis, It's extremely useful when soloing. There's no way to repair/upgrade midfight. You can obviously run around and hope that they don't reach you in time, but that do waste a lot of time and makes things a lot harder than it has to be.

And to those who think there's something wrong in standing still as a hunter, have you ever finished insane umf? I've tried out a lot of different tactics that involves proper kiting, but havn't found a single one that works well enough. Standing still tanking all the ogres is by far the best way I've found so far.

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Piercing shot DPS against the target dummy is not why they are changing this.. Let me illuminate a bit: (psuedo fake numbers)

You can see that you still get decent performance against large groups, but the dps vs smaller groups really drops.

IMO, they could of done better if the damage just scaled down after it hits a mob.. So first mob in line takes 100% dmg, next 95%, etc.. Obviously, I'm spewing random numbers here for this example, but scaling the dmg down after each hit instead of increasing the couldown would definately keep the dps folks are used to but lower the mass mob slaughterfest if the player gets a good line on 30+ mobs.


You do make a valid point.. too bad your point is based on CANNON FODDER. It's called cannon fodder for a reason. Every class can annihilate them instantly. Except now we can't. We have to wait 4 seconds to clear one side, while other classes can just lolafkclick. Even then, Wave12+ my 150k PS doesnt even clear a wave. Now we HAVE to use Disklaunchers or just straight up change classes because our DPS is subpar otherwise. PS spam was keeping us up with everyone else.

If you actually read my post, you would read that EVERY CLASS brings a gimmick to the table. Whether it's; APP insane DPS with the luxury of being able to use a proxy trap in their camp with APP pets, Monks ability to double his damage + heal WHILE CLEAVING or AoE heal towers, or Squires ability to cleave and become a god if he presses a button.

Our gimmick is DPS, you COULD say, "LOL WE HAVE INVIS"... Invis only really matters in the first few waves when your set-up is still level 1. You should be using an Imp pet so repairing is a non-issue.

And if you reply to me, "Well, we shouldn't be pigeon holed into one pet type." Well I agree with you, but you shouldn't be putting yourself at a disadvantage to make a point, and Trendy should balance better, but Imp and APP pets are currently the best, and it'll stay that way until something better comes along. When Mondays patch comes out Repairing should be a non-issue again.

Your change on scaling when piercing the 2nd and 3rd and so forth is a valid point, and I would definitely take that over the **** 4second cooldown that it is now. Kudos on thinking of something like that.

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I think you guys are way off when it comes to invis, It's extremely useful when soloing. There's no way to repair/upgrade midfight. You can obviously run around and hope that they don't reach you in time, but that do waste a lot of time and makes things a lot harder than it has to be.

And to those who think there's something wrong in standing still as a hunter, have you ever finished insane umf? I've tried out a lot of different tactics that involves proper kiting, but havn't found a single one that works well enough. Standing still tanking all the ogres is by far the best way I've found so far.


Have YOU ever done UMF solo? If you have, you'd realize Enemies DO NOT STACK. Model collision will eventually occur, and you will have to change positions so you can line up your Disk Launcher/PS shots to efficiently DPS.

And about repairing/uprading. Read my post above how it only really matters on the first few waves when your set-up is still only level 1. You should be using an imp pet for repairs anyway.

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i do agree that the PS and spreadshot both needed to have a longer cooldown, but 4 seconds is just too much.
in a lot of cases that nearly halves a huntresses dps.
Now a FAIR nerf would've been 2 seconds, its not much but its still enough to make it less spammable without getting you killed due to lack of dps.

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Have YOU ever done UMF solo? If you have, you'd realize Enemies DO NOT STACK. Model collision will eventually occur, and you will have to change positions so you can line up your Disk Launcher/PS shots to efficiently DPS.

And about repairing/uprading. Read my post above how it only really matters on the first few waves when your set-up is still only level 1. You should be using an imp pet for repairs anyway.


Well, guess there's a lot of ways to do it. Obviously you can't stand entirely still, but the majority of the time i do that. Once in awhile I move about a yard to the side and then stand still again(Not going to share my tactics, but always when there's a new map I suggest studying it to find the best places to stand. And yes, I have done F and I'm doing it plenty of times everyday.

So, Invis is useless cause you can easily replace a proper pet with an imp to be able to skip using invis? I'd suggest trying it the other way around, an apprentice guardian brings a lot more damage than the little damage you lose by upgrading a trap once during each wave. It also brings more survival, both the healing and the strength aura is buffed by the pet. That means I can skip a lot of resistance, I havn't put a single point into resistances on my huntress. Just cause there's ways to let you skip using a skill, doesn't mean its useless.

There's also more uses of invis, If you end up making misstakes while playing invis is one way to help you through it. Yesterday I actually fell asleep while on wave 14, I ended up replacing my weapon with one from the floor somehow and I died. If it wasn't for invis I'd never make it back to the spot. There was simply too much all over the map. Invis has also saved me when I've forgot to repair the strength aura at some point, instead of getting killed I simply used invis to finish off the ogres instead of almost being one shot.

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Well, guess there's a lot of ways to do it. Obviously you can't stand entirely still, but the majority of the time i do that. Once in awhile I move about a yard to the side and then stand still again(Not going to share my tactics, but always when there's a new map I suggest studying it to find the best places to stand. And yes, I have done F and I'm doing it plenty of times everyday.


Don't bring new content into the equation. They've had to release 3 patches within 48 hours and another patch lined up 'cause of how broken it is.

So, Invis is useless cause you can easily replace a proper pet with an imp to be able to skip using invis? I'd suggest trying it the other way around, an apprentice guardian brings a lot more damage than the little damage you lose by upgrading a trap once during each wave. It also brings more survival, both the healing and the strength aura is buffed by the pet. That means I can skip a lot of resistance, I havn't put a single point into resistances on my huntress. Just cause there's ways to let you skip using a skill, doesn't mean its useless.


Using an Imp is a better choice because I don't have to worry about camp HP, therefore I'm able to pick up all gear before they disappear. There's no other point in doing UMF. With an Imp I'm able to keep my DPS up 100%, allowing the mobs to continuously move forward to be killed by traps. This is more conventional versus using an App + invisible.


There's also more uses of invis, If you end up making misstakes while playing invis is one way to help you through it. Yesterday I actually fell asleep while on wave 14, I ended up replacing my weapon with one from the floor somehow and I died. If it wasn't for invis I'd never make it back to the spot. There was simply too much all over the map. Invis has also saved me when I've forgot to repair the strength aura at some point, instead of getting killed I simply used invis to finish off the ogres instead of almost being one shot.


Do you know what also helps with mistakes? Resistances and an Imp pet.

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Don't bring new content into the equation. They've had to release 3 patches within 48 hours and another patch lined up 'cause of how broken it is.


Using an Imp is a better choice because I don't have to worry about camp HP, therefore I'm able to pick up all gear before they disappear. There's no other point to do UMF. With an Imp I'm able to keep my DPS up 100%, allowing the mobs to continuously move forward to be killed by traps. This is more conventional versus using an App + invisible.

Do you know what also helps with mistakes? Resistances and an Imp pet.


Nerfed PS huntress/ranger is still viable. I suggest you find a naturally piercing weapon (phoenix, flamethrower, discthrower, bonebow?[not sure if they ever pierced], etc.) and use the PS to clear lanes. Spam repair instead of waiting for towers to go orange. Also, you fail if you ever use an imp solo. Apprentice guards have a lot better utility when your trap&aura stacks are properly placed. This is all assuming, of course, that you prefer to solo UMF.

Are you picking up gear in 1st person/over-the-shoulder view? Fail. Zoom out, hover, "e" on any gear that looks attractive, rinse repeat. Continue doing this while blasting trash mobs before focusing on mini-boss mobs. Win @ iUMF. 80% of the gear you'll pick up is trash anyway. Having trouble repairing? Fix your setup so that you don't have to invis and can instead kite & repair in short bursts.

Tired of the PS nerf? Get used to not using it, then. Each class has technically useless abilities depending on the situation.

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