So, I was wrong. My apologies.

I owe an apology to many Dungeon Defenders players and to Trendy. In another thread I made this assertion :
[quote]As a more casual player I would expect that my 10 hours, or even 20 hours, of play would equal the 10 hours of the more "hardcore" players. As it stands right now, though, the "hardcore" guys can play 10 hours in one sitting and leave the game for the month. If I put in 2 hours a day every day in that same month, I cannot catch up to the power level of the hardcore guys. In my opinion, that's just poor design. [/quote]

In response some of the more advanced (*in progression, this isn't about skill level in any way) players suggested a path for me, as a casual player, to break into Uber Monster Fest. This consisted of an Aura monk with 200 in tower stats, a decently statted trapper, and a DPS toon who could pull 150k DPS. As I do my best to maintain an open mind, I decided to try the route they suggested to see if it is, indeed, possible for a casual gamer to make headway without game sessions lasting several hours.

I began by making a new monk character and quickly got him to 70. I used the mana I collected while power-leveling (about 9.3 million) to browse some shops for gear and wound up with this: http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198039671701/screenshot/613844736964476278?tab=public .

Total time spent thus far : 2.5 hours

Today after work I began Insane MM Survuval on Alch Labs. Admittedly, I got my buttocks handed to me early into wave 11 (starting from 1), but collected a few million mana (roughly 4.5 mil) along the way. I then used that mana to grab my Trapper some inexpensive (nothing more than 1.5 million) armor from more player shops resulting in : http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198039671701/screenshot/613844736981458976/?tab=public .

Total time spent thus far : 4.5 hours

Once I had these two characters at the point shown above, I took these two and my existing DPS Huntress (been working on her since I began playing about a month and a half ago) to UMF Insane. Huntress looks like this : http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198039671701/screenshot/613844736981455753/?tab=public . (Note, she doesn't pull the recommended 150k, either)

Much to my surprise, I completed the first wave of UMF Insane, which was the hypothesis put forth by those with whom I had discussed this path. Granted, I failed the second wave with about 40 mobs to go, but that's neither here nor there, as the challenge was to break into Uber-fest and beat even a single wave, loot the chests, and keep doing so until the drops allowed me to push a little further.

I honestly didn't think it was possible to, in roughly 5 hours over a couple of days, even scratch the surface of this challenge. I have been proven wrong.

To those who have been shouting from the rooftops that we casuals do, in fact, have access to the "end game" without having to camp at our PCs for hours on end, I apologize for arguing with you. Thank you for the advice you've given that helped push me to this point.

To Trendy, who I slighted in the assertion I quoted at the beginning of this post, I apologize. My words were unwarranted.

To all the Dungeon Defenders like me, who only have a couple of hours at a time to devote to the game, I tell you this... Forget the tired old casual v hardcore crap. It serves no one. Getting into UMF where the uber loot resides is a matter of re-examining your perspective on the game. As I said, I didn't believe for a second that it would be possible, but a couple days of focused play time has demonstrated to me that the path is very much open to all since the introduction of UMF. None of my characters are decked out in fully upgraded gear. Heck, my DPSer isn't even getting a set bonus. But the proof was right in front of me once I stopped arguing with the hardcore crowd and tried following the advice laid out by the very people I was arguing with.

It's there. Go get it.

Ahhh, I love happy endings :) Anyways, grats man, now you too can numb your mind like the rest of us and farm UMF!

hehe. nowhere near farmable for me at this point. Now that I've proven to myself it's possible, though, I'll be whittling away at it.

Congratulations and good luck on drops.

Thank you for being the one of the first people to listen to advice. Kudos on the successful clear ;). Since you can now get to the second wave, getting gear should be a cakewalk.

dude awesome! good job and watch you'll be farming end game content quickly!

I think your original point was lost on a very basic fact:

* You bought gear from other players *

The whole point of a game is logical progression. Logical progression does not mean buying a game after it has been out for months, and finding that the only way to do missions is to get gear from players that was farmed solid for the entire time the game was out in those months, because you cant get better gear gradually by just playing missions in the game.

The only way you could have obtained that gear normally was random drops by doing survival over and over. You hand picked gear from shops, otherwise god knows how many runs it would have taken, as a lot of rubbish and a lot of gear with negative numbers drops.

Even Payday: The Heist makes you "farm" missions to get better gear, but at least it's logical in its power progression, and comes by just playing the game normally, same as Borderlands did in it's own way, while in DD, the only way to survive UMF is to have BETTER gear then it's possible to get anywhere in DD other then the last waves of Survival runs.

Your "focused play" had nothing to do with it, as you just purchased better loot from someone else. If this gear came from the Barkeeper/vendor, THEN it might be considered normal gameplay, getting lucky because someone had a "sale", is not normal gameplay, sorry.

I think your original point was lost on a very basic fact:

* You bought gear from other players *

The whole point of a game is logical progression. Logical progression does not mean buying a game after it has been out for months, and finding that the only way to do missions is to get gear from players that was farmed solid for the entire time the game was out in those months, because you cant get better gear gradually by just playing missions in the game.

The only way you could have obtained that gear normally was random drops by doing survival over and over. You hand picked gear from shops, otherwise god knows how many runs it would have taken, as a lot of rubbish and a lot of gear with negative numbers drops.

Even Payday: The Heist makes you "farm" missions to get better gear, but at least it's logical in its power progression, and comes by just playing the game normally, same as Borderlands did in it's own way, while in DD, the only way to survive UMF is to have BETTER gear then it's possible to get anywhere in DD other then the last waves of Survival runs.

Your "focused play" had nothing to do with it, as you just purchased better loot from someone else. If this gear came from the Barkeeper/vendor, THEN it might be considered normal gameplay, getting lucky because someone had a "sale", is not normal gameplay, sorry.

I would consider buying from an AFK shop as "normal" gameplay now-a-days. It wasn't "normal" a month ago, but AFK stores are plenty abundant and accessible to all. Sure not everyone sells for the same price or even the same quality items but it is part of game play now. I think the store implementation was an excellent thing and the devs continue to improve the interface (with dundefstore.com). A given players "unwanted" gear benefits not only the seller but also the buyer.

I think your comment stem from not wanting to accept the change that is the AFK store and choose to focus on how things used to be. The store allows for players like the OP and other more casual players to access end game content earlier and without having to put in the man hours that is/was survival.

If anyone should be "complaining" it should be the hardcore crowd that had to put in the many failed hours (due to disconnects, random crystal explosions etc) that is survival so that they could farm/beat UMF.

Also I don't think the guy was "lucky" for any "sales" going on. There is an over abundance of cheap decent armor and only more will come to the stores and with lower prices.

Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but let me ask you this. In any game other with a player driven economy, is it considered "normal" gameplay to buy items from other players? Is it "not normal gameplay" to use the auction house in WoW?

As I said, you're entitled to your opinion, I just no longer happen to share it.

Thaelyn. You are totally like an anti-troll. I love you man! This post rocks.

Thank you for being one of the few reasonable, open minded people on the internet. If you want to duo some UMF with me, add luckygac Steam ID, and I would be happy to do so.

And to Thaurondir, I would say that the gear required to break into UMF is fully accessable OUTSIDE of AFK shops, Survival runs, and UMF itself. You can get the required gear from Glitterheim and Summit runs exclusively, if such is your desire. It will take longer, but that is a choice of progression if you wish it.

Aye, posts like this earn the respect of the seasoned and casual alike :)
Awesome to hear all the advice worked in your favor!

+1

kudos to thread starter for it. hope this will motivate more teaching and less flaming from the veterans.

i guess dissentment comes from both sides - new and old to the game. new guys are finding it difficult to progress without the knowledge and experience, and old guys are feeling like they literally have to spoon-feed the new ones. this thread proves that not everyone on the internet's a prick.

i wish you luck in higher and higher waves of UMF cleared.

I think your original point was lost on a very basic fact:

* You bought gear from other players *

The whole point of a game is logical progression. Logical progression does not mean buying a game after it has been out for months, and finding that the only way to do missions is to get gear from players that was farmed solid for the entire time the game was out in those months, because you cant get better gear gradually by just playing missions in the game.

The only way you could have obtained that gear normally was random drops by doing survival over and over. You hand picked gear from shops, otherwise god knows how many runs it would have taken, as a lot of rubbish and a lot of gear with negative numbers drops.

Even Payday: The Heist makes you "farm" missions to get better gear, but at least it's logical in its power progression, and comes by just playing the game normally, same as Borderlands did in it's own way, while in DD, the only way to survive UMF is to have BETTER gear then it's possible to get anywhere in DD other then the last waves of Survival runs.

Your "focused play" had nothing to do with it, as you just purchased better loot from someone else. If this gear came from the Barkeeper/vendor, THEN it might be considered normal gameplay, getting lucky because someone had a "sale", is not normal gameplay, sorry.

no one likes a hater :(

mind sharing the setup? i'm a little higher than those stats so it would be nice to give it a try.

I think your original point was lost on a very basic fact:

* You bought gear from other players *

The whole point of a game is logical progression. Logical progression does not mean buying a game after it has been out for months, and finding that the only way to do missions is to get gear from players that was farmed solid for the entire time the game was out in those months, because you cant get better gear gradually by just playing missions in the game.

The only way you could have obtained that gear normally was random drops by doing survival over and over. You hand picked gear from shops, otherwise god knows how many runs it would have taken, as a lot of rubbish and a lot of gear with negative numbers drops.

Even Payday: The Heist makes you "farm" missions to get better gear, but at least it's logical in its power progression, and comes by just playing the game normally, same as Borderlands did in it's own way, while in DD, the only way to survive UMF is to have BETTER gear then it's possible to get anywhere in DD other then the last waves of Survival runs.

Your "focused play" had nothing to do with it, as you just purchased better loot from someone else. If this gear came from the Barkeeper/vendor, THEN it might be considered normal gameplay, getting lucky because someone had a "sale", is not normal gameplay, sorry.

-1...

I don't think you argued with me, but I discussed this with some other people in another thread. Nice of you to actually try instead of just saying "This is too hard and needs too much grinding, just make it easier".

Your potential DPS with that disc gun is actually MUCH higher than 150k. The discs penetrate multiple mobs (may not even have a limit although I haven't checked) so you should multiply whatever number you get on the target dummy by 5 or 6.

I did myself something close to what you did, and surprisingly enough yesterday i finally succeded beating the first 2 waves :) Didn't get much but i did get 2 40ups pretty good armors and 2 "forgotthekind" guns which are not my ideal kind (bone bow or disk or crystal traker kind). So i'm all happy too :)

Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but let me ask you this. In any game other with a player driven economy, is it considered "normal" gameplay to buy items from other players? Is it "not normal gameplay" to use the auction house in WoW?

As I said, you're entitled to your opinion, I just no longer happen to share it.

The argument is that in WoW, you hop in raid and you get gear for the next progression raid from every single boss you down (and some random mobs). On WoW, you can clear all but the last 2 bosses of a raid, and be fairly geared to move to the next progression.

In DD, you have to beat ONLY those last 2 bosses to be able to even scratch the surface of the next "raid". That is the argument. Yes, you can progress yourself np. I did it myself and made it about 3 waves in on insane umf without buying gear or any external help. But the path was rediculous nonetheless.

I did it myself and made it about 3 waves in on insane umf without buying gear or any external help. But the path was rediculous nonetheless.

I won't deny that I would have considered it preferable to acquire the gear I used without having to purchase it from other players. The fact is, however, that player shops, since their introduction, are an available means of player progression within Dungeon Defenders. The "experiment" was to see if a means of progression to UMF existed without countless hours of Survival grinding. Turns out it does, with only 5 hours of play in which I focused on smaller, more defined goals than "Gee, wish I had superlootz" I accomplished what I set out to do. The fact that I took advantage of the newer progression path that was only recently made available does not, in my opinion, invalidate the experiment as that path is open to any who wish to use it.

The challenge for me, at this point, is to retain some of the focus and use what I learned over the past couple of days to help me progress further.

I won't deny that I would have considered it preferable to acquire the gear I used without having to purchase it from other players. The fact is, however, that player shops, since their introduction, are an available means of player progression within Dungeon Defenders. The "experiment" was to see if a means of progression to UMF existed without countless hours of Survival grinding. Turns out it does, with only 5 hours of play in which I focused on smaller, more defined goals than "Gee, wish I had superlootz" I accomplished what I set out to do. The fact that I took advantage of the newer progression path that was only recently made available does not, in my opinion, invalidate the experiment as that path is open to any who wish to use it.

The challenge for me, at this point, is to retain some of the focus and use what I learned over the past couple of days to help me progress further.

The problem I have with shops is that much of that gear is obtained from people who have obtained prenerf gear or people who bought gear from people with prenerf gear. The odds of getting gear from someone who "legitly" obtained that gear is slim as that path is long and arduous. Yes people could do UMF when it first came out without UMF gear, but that's because they sat in survival normal+mm in order to do it. Now they can clear it blindfolded solo and even with a deadweight afk. The market is now saturated with the gear they don't need and yes, now others can do UMF too because of that gear but there are few and far between people that obtained it through straight hard work AFTER the UMF nerfs.

The problem I have with shops is that much of that gear is obtained from people who have obtained prenerf gear or people who bought gear from people with prenerf gear. The odds of getting gear from someone who "legitly" obtained that gear is slim as that path is long and arduous. Yes people could do UMF when it first came out without UMF gear, but that's because they sat in survival normal+mm in order to do it. Now they can clear it blindfolded solo and even with a deadweight afk. The market is now saturated with the gear they don't need and yes, now others can do UMF too because of that gear but there are few and far between people that obtained it through straight hard work AFTER the UMF nerfs.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your post here, you're saying that your issue with shops is that some people used drops that they got legitimately during the short window of opportunity during which flat out ludicrous levels of loot was dropping (7.10's 4 hourish window and the one day of 7.12b). Is that the case?

If so, I don't share your feelings on the matter. Does it suck for those who weren't able to take advantage that those loots are not currently obtainable? Sure it does. Does it make the people who did get those items bad people? Absolutely not, nor does it mean that their shops should be boycotted.

If you're saying that you don't agree with someone like me jumping from finishing Glitter to that level of loot via shop purchases, I'll ask you to note the gear in the screenshot. With the exception of the 64^ disc thrower (which I found in a shop for 500k mana) I'm not using anything that is beyond the upgrade levels I've seen from survival pre wave 20.

We'll likely have to simply disagree here, but I stand by what I've said in this thread. The path is there and is open. It is unfortunate, in my opinion, that some may be held back in their own progression because they dislike the road set out before them, but I certainly respect their choice in the matter.

Thanks for posting this, Thaelyn.

As someone who has over 250 hours in DD and still can't beat UMF wave 1, I'm wondering exactly what your layout looked like on the first wave? What exactly did you do?

Thanks for posting this, Thaelyn.

As someone who has over 250 hours in DD and still can't beat UMF wave 1, I'm wondering exactly what your layout looked like on the first wave? What exactly did you do?

I'll be honest with you, what I did was absolute crap. I think with a decent defense layout I could have beaten at least one or two more waves. I put out defenses just as an "I wonder". Worked for 180 mobs, but not for the second onslaught. I'll jump over to the defense planner and show you how ridiculously stupid the defenses were. Be back in a minute.

-EDIT- Ok, here's the "Oh my god I can't believe this loser did that" layout, hehe. http://html5.cubicleninja.com/dd/index.htm?layout=4565

I did this for a couple of reasons, first for the "I wonder" mentioned above. Secondly, despite the amount of time for the build phase, I felt immediate time pressure because I don't know the map at all. I don't even know how to find all the chests, so I grabbed the 4 closest to the spawn and did what you see here. That's why I included the enrage aura, hoping that some of the mobs would help me thin out the numbers of enemies.