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An Unsustainable Cycle


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Super loot was needed. Game was practically 'done' for most people (according to steam stats, 75% of people stopped playing over the course of 2 weeks), but now some life got pumped back into it.

It isn't perfect, but it keeps people playing. If it weren't for that patch, this game would probably be dead now.


Lol... not even close... more people left due to the changes then... just because a portion of the community blew through the content so fast doesn't mean game breaking armor/weapons needed to be added... a lot of top geared players would have moved to pvp or took a break until DLC... happens to a lit if games... =\

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Noted, however, I still stand by my point that I don't think insane was easy for a lot of people, especially before superloot. There are always the "hardcore" people who find a way to play a game 25 hours the first day it comes out and call everyone who can't do 1.2mil dps a scrub, and I have no doubt the game was easy for them. I began playing with one of my rl friends and couldn't get past the 3rd map on medium on release day, and I think most people were in the same boat - being, they couldn't just blow through everything on insane.

Yes, but again, not everyone considers necessary to finish the game on the hardest difficulty to get a sense of fullfillment.
I too struggled with the demon the first time I played, but I didn't expect to complete the game on release day. After a few hours playing I could play deeper wells survival insane and get to wave 10 with a level 30-ish squire.


That's fine if you don't want to give your input, but I'm using common sense and probability to determine a reasonable figure for the purpose of making my point, and it should not be discounted because of a highly improbably chance for inaccuracy due to skewed data.

It's reasonable for the point you are trying to make, but nobody here knows if it's accurate. It could be 1%, 5%, 20% or even higher. That's why you can't base arguments on steam achievements, because nobody knows what percentage of the whole community they represent. You also have to take into account that achievement percentages account for the total players, not the current, so there is no way of knowing the actual numbers for those percentages.

Lol... not even close... more people left due to the changes then... just because a portion of the community blew through the content so fast doesn't mean game breaking armor/weapons needed to be added... a lot of top geared players would have moved to pvp or took a break until DLC... happens to a lit if games... =\


How many PvP games have you seen since the release of the game? I have personally seen under 10, and I've played since release. Super loot didn't break the game. It was easy enough before super loot came. If people had trouble finishing the game before, they should also have trouble getting super loot.

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The content is not the same on easy and insane. When I first played the game, I beat it on medium no problem. I tried insane, I could not get passed the first map. If it were the same, I would have been able to beat it. What changed was the strength of the mobs. The strategies I used to beat medium were not working on insane or even sometimes on hard, therefore strategies had to be revised, changing the game completely. I personally had the most fun with this game going through the campaign and struggling to beat it on hard and insane. This is also true for the only three friends I play this game with. Of the four people I can ask who play the game, four (100%, that includes me) say the most fun was struggling during the campaign and challenges. I know it is not a representative sample, but it definitely says something.

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The content is not the same on easy and insane. When I first played the game, I beat it on medium no problem. I tried insane, I could not get passed the first map. If it were the same, I would have been able to beat it. What changed was the strength of the mobs. The strategies I used to beat medium were not working on insane or even sometimes on hard, therefore strategies had to be revised, changing the game completely. I personally had the most fun with this game going through the campaign and struggling to beat it on hard and insane. This is also true for the only three friends I play this game with. Of the four people I can ask who play the game, four (100%, that includes me) say the most fun was struggling during the campaign and challenges. I know it is not a representative sample, but it definitely says something.


The content is exactly the same. Difficulty increase does not mean new content, having to use different setups does not mean new content either and HP increase on mobs does not mean new content either. If harder modes had different mobs or anything different from easier modes it'd be a different story.
It's obvious that harder difficulties will be harder, but that does not mean that the content is different.

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[QUOTE]How many PvP games have you seen since the release of the game? I have personally seen under 10, and I've played since release. Super loot didn't break the game. It was easy enough before super loot came. If people had trouble finishing the game before, they should also have trouble getting super loot.[/QUOTE]

Trendy would have spent more time on PvP fixes rather then rebalancing the whole game and new DLCs where super armor breaks it...
Tho you are right... as of now, no one plays... that means its time for me to host a pvp tourney!

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4) Easy and normal don't give awards for killing the dragon. Maybe people completed the game on easy/normal and then left.

Medium does give an award for killing the dragon. Easy at least gives the weapon/guardian reward.

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Okay, Astrartea, I'll agree with you that the visual content is the same, but the fact that they have more HP alone means the content is different. They have stronger attacks, faster movement speed, and more health. These may looks the same, but their stats make them different. That is different content to me as it requires different gameplay. Not everything is skin-deep.

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Trendy would have spent more time on PvP fixes rather then rebalancing the whole game and new DLCs where super armor breaks it...
Tho you are right... as of now, no one plays... that means its time for me to host a pvp tourney!

A lot of people don't even care for PvP, we've seen their opinions on the forums. In my opinion it was a good call to not focus on PvP, this game was meant to be co-op. PvP would be biased towards gear and not skill, and as I see it there is no point to that.

Okay, Astrartea, I'll agree with you that the visual content is the same, but the fact that they have more HP alone means the content is different. They have stronger attacks, faster movement speed, and more health. These may looks the same, but their stats make them different. That is different content to me as it requires different gameplay. Not everything is skin-deep.

Yes, that changes, but as I said before, that alone does not encourage everyone to beat every level again. For example I wouldn't have done it if it wasn't for the chicken.

Medium does give an award for killing the dragon. Easy at least gives the weapon/guardian reward.

By award I meant steam achievements, not ingame items.

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The only reason why people blew through the content so quick was because the game play was way unbalanced at launch. Im not saying it is balanced now but it is alot better alot better! Players at low levels doing ridiculous ele damage, not to mention the glitch when entering your stats when you gain a level and basically ALL the nerfs that people QQ'd about. I can say I had more of a challenge and I still find it a challenge and fun. If you played the game and hit 70 and blew through the content before the first initial nerfs you wouldn't have felt any challenge.

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Just reading through the first page, I see one guy says that [[488,hashtags]] went up with superloot, the next guy says it stayed the same, and the next guy says it dropped significantly. Where are these numbers coming from, anyway? Is there any reliable way to tell how many people are playing the game during a given amount of time?

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I'd be lying if I said I could do insane assault without this sick-nasty superloot crystal tracker. Before the patches I needed a duo setup of me blazing through the first two crystals, so that my grenade launching friend could bombard the third crystal in 40 or so seconds.

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I've already mostly quit the game.

Why play the same maps I've already beat on Insane, just to get better loot, so I can go back and beat them ...again? on Insane?

Nightmare isn't going to change the fact I'm STILL PLAYING THE SAME MAPS. What needs to happen for this game to continue to thrive is NEW MAPS. Not one a month, but a PACK.

The 'Nightmare' patch needs to bring at least 10 entirely new maps or I don't really see myself continuing with DunDef.

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2) http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/7172/achi.png

If you have everything else /bug it to steam until they do something about it, or fulfill another (done) achievement and it _may_ pop up.


Again: Not only do achievements only apply to ranked, but they are also inaccurate.
.

They might only apply to ranked, but to be honest... who gives a rats about the cheaters in open?
They might be inaccurate, but they are accurate enough for the sake of this discussion, it's not like it's 99% of the playerbase demanding better gear, more like 19%-39% (those who reached lvl 70 to those who reached lvl 30), now that's just the part that could use the stuff, again only ranked, but on open... why don't you use one of all the zillion editors & trainers to get the gear? not like anyone cares...



4) Easy and normal don't give awards for killing the dragon. Maybe people completed the game on easy/normal and then left.


By award I meant steam achievements, not ingame items.


The achievement for beating the dragon on ANY difficulty (including easy) is called "A Taste of Victory" - Completed all Area 3 levels on any difficulty setting.
You get that by doing it on easy/normal (and I guess hard + insane), or atleast you COULD get it as late as 23rd Oct on easy, I know I did, and I haven't seen any patchnotes stating any changes in that area.

After that you've got another one for every level + Glitter, but as long as you've snuffed the dragon - You have beaten the game in my eyes.

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I've already mostly quit the game.

Why play the same maps I've already beat on Insane, just to get better loot, so I can go back and beat them ...again? on Insane?

Nightmare isn't going to change the fact I'm STILL PLAYING THE SAME MAPS. What needs to happen for this game to continue to thrive is NEW MAPS. Not one a month, but a PACK.

The 'Nightmare' patch needs to bring at least 10 entirely new maps or I don't really see myself continuing with DunDef.


Just out of curiosity, would you consider the halloween map to be a "new" map?
If so, could you accept a revamp of all the maps at the present to save the folks at Trendy some work or would they have to make completely new ones from scratch?

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Ideally new ones. Though the Halloween map had added spawns and such, so the setup was not the same as regular Ramparts.

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The content is not the same on easy and insane. When I first played the game, I beat it on medium no problem. I tried insane, I could not get passed the first map. If it were the same, I would have been able to beat it. What changed was the strength of the mobs. The strategies I used to beat medium were not working on insane or even sometimes on hard, therefore strategies had to be revised, changing the game completely. I personally had the most fun with this game going through the campaign and struggling to beat it on hard and insane. This is also true for the only three friends I play this game with. Of the four people I can ask who play the game, four (100%, that includes me) say the most fun was struggling during the campaign and challenges. I know it is not a representative sample, but it definitely says something.


I understand what you're saying and agree. The strategies that are successful on easy may not be viable options on harder difficulties, and that was something I really enjoyed about the game. Superloot made nearly everything /afk let animus win the map (at least for me).

The content is exactly the same. Difficulty increase does not mean new content, having to use different setups does not mean new content either and HP increase on mobs does not mean new content either. If harder modes had different mobs or anything different from easier modes it'd be a different story.
It's obvious that harder difficulties will be harder, but that does not mean that the content is different.


Semantics of "content" aside, I think his point stands.

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Semantics of "content" aside, I think his point stands.


Quoting myself to answer:

Yes, that changes, but as I said before, that alone does not encourage everyone to beat every level again. For example I wouldn't have done it if it wasn't for the chicken.

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Quoting myself to answer: Yes, that changes, but as I said before, that alone does not encourage everyone to beat every level again. For example I wouldn't have done it if it wasn't for the chicken.


It does for me, as it provides a harder challenge that requires a new though process and strategy. If this isn't reason enough for you to replay the map, what alternative would you value more? Grinding insane survival with the understanding that technical difficulties or time constraints may prevent you from ever completing it? The purpose of playing content strictly for obtaining loot is the reason I made this thread - I feel the game has been shifted to put focus of this, rather than completing content using skill and strategy. Do you disagree?

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It does for me, as it provides a harder challenge that requires a new though process and strategy. If this isn't reason enough for you to replay the map, what alternative would you value more? Grinding insane survival with the understanding that technical difficulties or time constraints may prevent you from ever completing it? The purpose of playing content strictly for obtaining loot is the reason I made this thread - I feel the game has been shifted to put focus of this, rather than completing content using skill and strategy. Do you disagree?

The game had shifted to grinding even before super loot. The difference is that now the grinding yields better rewards. People used to farm halloween before, and ramparts/gliter before that.
Higher difficulties the way they are now (higher mob hp, build timer, etc) don't add anything new to me. Different levels/enemies would though.
As I said before, ever since I got my chicken (11/8) I have only played 3 or 4 levels. Most levels I only completed once.
Even if it provides a harder challenge it provides no rewards, that's why I enjoy grinding more. It is more challenging but at the same time more rewarding. If I wanted a sense of fullfillment I'd play the harder challenges that I haven't been able to complete yet.

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