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Argotto

Squire weapon swing speeds

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Sorry if this seems like a bit of a rant. I mean for it to be more of a question regarding future changes or a current problem I, personally, am having. Basically, as a squire, there is a nice variety of weapon models to choose from. If you like axes, you can get one. If you like using swords; you have quite a large selection. Same with a great hammer and even fist weapons.

Now for the problem. It seems like the swing speed difference between certain weapon types can be a bit extreme. You have a katana, which is probably the fastest swinging weapon in the game, that can be equal in stats, damage and even size to weapons that are much slower. That is just one common example. My problem with this is that the slower weapons don't seem to have their own advantages, like hitting harder based on the insinuated 'weight' that seems to be causing your character to swing it so slowly compared to lighter weapons.

This pretty much takes out the variety in a competitive sense, because naturally you will want to get the fastest swinging weapon possible to obtain the highest DPS. And I might add that the DPS difference is quite substantial, as many may already know. I suppose what I want to ask is whether or not this was intended? Can I, as a person who loves playing on his squire, hope to see some kind of normalization between weapons with different swing speeds, or will I forever have to hunt down katanas or rapiers for max DPS?

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We may well need to make the slower-swinging weapons have higher potential random damages. What are some of the ones that you feel could use higher potential damages? The Thor Hammer obviously, but any others that stick out as obvious?

-Jer

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We may well need to make the slower-swinging weapons have higher potential random damages. What are some of the ones that you feel could use higher potential damages? The Thor Hammer obviously, but any others that stick out as obvious?

-Jer


I love using axes, so that weapon in particular inspired me to make this thread. They are not as slow as some other weapons, but still clearly slower than katanas, rapiers, and fist weapons that can drop. The DPS difference just seems a bit much is all. Even moderate swing speed weapons like the standard swords, the crystallized looking swords, ect., all do significantly less than the super speed weapons.

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I think it could be better that Slower weapons have a higher damage cap (maybe 90 or something like that) or gain more benefit from hero damage so they can do the same dps as the fast ones (same happens with bows, why would you use a blunderbuss if a bonebow do almost the same damage but attack faster?).

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I have found tons of hammers but never one that seemed adequate enough to use permanently. I can look in my item box later for specific names, but I'll just say for now that faster hammers was something I've been hoping to find to use with my countess. But a harder hitting, slower swinging weapon would also correct the issue I have with hammers.

A buddy I asked in-game also replied with the same response when I said how cool a hammer looked: yeah but they're so slow (where currently speed=dps) they're not worth using.

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Jeremy,

to answer your question...all squire and monk melee!

The huntress is the only char with weapon choices that make compelling sense. Crystal tracker, bone, nade, minigun, VW...etc. they can all be viable because they provide different things.

Now, lets look at all other classes.

monk ranged = normalized. All weapons aside from halloween ones seem to have normalized amounts of extra shots, fire at same rate.

apprentice = normalized. doesn't matter type of staff, just need good dmg, charge rate, and xtra projectiles.

squire and melee monk = joke. Most DPS is fastest attack...PERIOD everything else is just vendor trash. because even if it looks ok, you drop your mana into it and realize that it does substantially less dmg than something that swings faster. :(

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We -could- do a retroactive math change where the slower a weapon swings, the corresponding more damage it does per swing... the ramifications might be widespread, but might also be really good to widen the effective melee weapon playing field... Hmmmmmm :)

-Jer

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after a few tests of the weapons i have gathered i made a list of what i think the speeds are:

slow weapons : axe, hammer, chainsaw sword
normal weapons: crystal sword, buster sword, sparta sword, lightsaber, bonecutter
fast weapons : courteau, katana, rapier, high five, mobile moxie,

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We -could- do a retroactive math change where the slower a weapon swings, the corresponding more damage it does per swing... the ramifications might be widespread, but might also be really good to widen the effective melee weapon playing field... Hmmmmmm :)

-Jer


Giving options to melee would be great. I mean, you guys spent time and money developing other models, why even have them if they will never be used...to decorate the map :P

I understand the following suggestion heads opposite to making all weapons viable, but it would be really cool if they had some sort of possible effect like huntress weapons do.

stun: maybe hammers can stun (obviously not every hit, but could be cool)
thorns: certain weapons could return dmg when squire blocks (perfect for tanking ogres? maybe necessary in nightmare)

dunno, stuff like that.

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We're saving those cool unique-melee-weapon effects like that for upcoming weapon types -- but yeah, we're gonna play around with a direct proportional retroactive increase in damage for slower swinging weapons now :)

-Jer

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Giving options to melee would be great. I mean, you guys spent time and money developing other models, why even have them if they will never be used...to decorate the map :P

I understand the following suggestion heads opposite to making all weapons viable, but it would be really cool if they had some sort of possible effect like huntress weapons do.

stun: maybe hammers can stun (obviously not every hit, but could be cool)
thorns: certain weapons could return dmg when squire blocks (perfect for tanking ogres? maybe necessary in nightmare)

dunno, stuff like that.

These sound like some really good suggestions to me. I'd like them on top of the change Jeremy is considering...and hopefully this change would apply to all melee weapons. the slow swing speed of monk weapons is the reason cited for melee monk being non-viable as a build compared to the range monk (because the chi rate of fire is faster than even the fastest monk weapon).

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We -could- do a retroactive math change where the slower a weapon swings, the corresponding more damage it does per swing... the ramifications might be widespread, but might also be really good to widen the effective melee weapon playing field... Hmmmmmm :)

-Jer


Balance for the new lvl cap, set a tester in a room with all the weapons and normalize them if you want to go down this path of making all weapons types useful

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We -could- do a retroactive math change where the slower a weapon swings, the corresponding more damage it does per swing... the ramifications might be widespread, but might also be really good to widen the effective melee weapon playing field... Hmmmmmm :)

-Jer



Not to have you steal from WoW but this was how they did their swings damage a slower swung but equal dmg did higher per hit just at a slower rate. So maybe that.

Or and I'm a big fan of this, using the Hero Cast rate impact swing rate for squires.

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Not to have you steal from WoW but this was how they did their swings damage a slower swung but equal dmg did higher per hit just at a slower rate. So maybe that.

Or and I'm a big fan of this, using the Hero Cast rate impact swing rate for squires.


Why not add haste =)

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We're saving those cool unique-melee-weapon effects like that for upcoming weapon types -- but yeah, we're gonna play around with a direct proportional retroactive increase in damage for slower swinging weapons now :)

-Jer

Awesome! I think this will be a really nice addition to the game!

Not to high-jack the thread, but does the size of the weapon model have effects on it's range? (ie, a big/long sword or hammer will hig enemies farther away?)

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Keep in mind that most of the "slower" weapons have FAR better range than the "faster" weapons. Weapons like the high five should be faster and deal comparatively higher dps because you literally need to be touching the enemy. Whereas hammers and axes are closer to shotgun range than actual melee. There are some exceptions though ... katanas have good range and good speed, probably the best squire weapon atm.

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Keep in mind that most of the "slower" weapons have FAR better range than the "faster" weapons. Weapons like the high five should be faster and deal comparatively higher dps because you literally need to be touching the enemy. Whereas hammers and axes are closer to shotgun range than actual melee. There are some exceptions though ... katanas have good range and good speed, probably the best squire weapon atm.


How often is clearing a group of enemies an issue? It is all about either boss damage or taking down ogres.

Also, only the fist type weapons don't have the range. Rapiers, katanas, ect. can all be pretty huge.

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How often is clearing a group of enemies an issue? It is all about either boss damage or taking down


Crowd control in Survival can be key.

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Crowd control in Survival can be key.


Indeed, but after the ogres are dead, all you really have to worry about doing is turning on blood rage and watching your animus rip things to shreds while you deal with warriors.

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We may well need to make the slower-swinging weapons have higher potential random damages. What are some of the ones that you feel could use higher potential damages? The Thor Hammer obviously, but any others that stick out as obvious?

-Jer


By adding a DPS value to a weapon this would probably allow you to construct a simple calculation to balance out swing speed to max random damage :)

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We -could- do a retroactive math change where the slower a weapon swings, the corresponding more damage it does per swing... the ramifications might be widespread, but might also be really good to widen the effective melee weapon playing field... Hmmmmmm :)

-Jer

This could be perfect. If you need more of a burst damage you can go for a slower weapon (like a hammer), instead if you need higher dps you go for the classic Katana, ecc :D

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We -could- do a retroactive math change where the slower a weapon swings, the corresponding more damage it does per swing... the ramifications might be widespread, but might also be really good to widen the effective melee weapon playing field... Hmmmmmm :)

-Jer


That would be awesome! Its very tough digging through piles of weapons with crazy stats that are worthless because of swing speed.

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Funny, I've been looking into the different squire weapons and I've come to a very similar conclusion as far as how swings per second affect DPS.

Firstly, from what I've experimented with, the weapon types that I know of so far that have 4 swings per second are Katanas, Shield-Saws, and High-Five fists.
Weapons with 2 swings per second are the Hammers, Chainsaw-Swords (and I'm sure Axes, though I haven't done mathematical experimentation against it.)

With 4 swings per second, a katana with 150 base damage will do the same damage as a hammer with 300 base damage that is swinging at 2 per second. Fair enough, but if both of them have 1/30 upgrades and all of the upgrades go into upping damage, you're looking at a lightsaber with ~2150 damage versus a ~2550 hammer. The katana will do almost 70% More DPS versus the hammer.

If there was to be some kind of mathematical normalization between weapon categories, and I'm not saying for or against (I'll use whatever weapon works best for my character for whatever situation arises; I'm not emotionally tied to any one model), I think seeing the upgrade caps change would be the way to go. Weapons with 2 swings per second, have their upgrade cap be twice as high as the weapons with 4 swings per second. If you keep katanas, moxies, high fives at 80 points of damage per upgrade as the cap, hammers would see a 160 point per upgrade cap.

Given the previous example of a 150 damage katana vs. a 300 damage hammer, the hammer would have closer to ~4280 damage and would be close to the same damage as the lightsaber (within less than a percent).

Ramifications: Joust and Circle Slash are based off of the damage of the weapon. The hammer in the above example would have better damage through Joust and Circle Slash. Since I haven't looked into the math on either of the two abilities, you could place the upgrade cap for 3swing/sec at maybe 108 and 2swing/sec at maybe 144. That's a 10% deficit on DPS with straight swinging vs. 4swing/sec, however, they could make up for it with the increase to damage with Joust and Circle Slash.

Anyways, I'm just kinda running my mouth at about this point. I'll just close by saying, I really do enjoy what you guys have done with the game, and to always take care when deciding on making changes as ramifications can be far reaching.

Edit: Funny, I just picked up an Axe and I swung it around at the dummy. I was getting some interesting numbers, and it's showing me a 2.66 swing per second result. O_o;

Edit 2: Interesting, the Buster sword is also giving me 2.66 swings per second, but the Crystalline swords give me a flat 3 swings per second. I'm going to go through all these weapon types with a fine tooth comb. o_o;

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AWESOME.

So sick of being stuck with using a katana for optimal DPS. First I see all of the upcoming patch notes, then this.. I am starting to love you guys.

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