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Towers in the long run... worthless?


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Feels worthless to place anything down as a squire, that is for sure. Traps and auras seem to be, by far, the best way to handle anything in this game, making even app towers kind of pointless aside from dealing with wyverns. I have to wonder if this was intended :\


Squire defense are in a really bad place right now. Most of them cost way too much DU for next to no value. In fact, about the only unit that sees any real use is spike barricades because of the much larger health totals compared to magic barricades. They don't do nearly enough damage, have far too many limitations, and when coupled with the stupid DU costs, they might as well not exist.

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Squire defense are in a really bad place right now. Most of them cost way too much DU for next to no value. In fact, about the only unit that sees any real use is spike barricades because of the much larger health totals compared to magic barricades. They don't do nearly enough damage, have far too many limitations, and when coupled with the stupid DU costs, they might as well not exist.


Yea :( The spike blockades DU cost is what makes them practically worthless compared to just having auras down.

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I love this.

A week ago: Traps are useless. Trap hunters should be autokicked!

Now: Omg towers suck, everyone only uses traps and auras!

Quite bipolar.

That said, while tower strategies are still perfectly viable. I'd not mind a change to warriors, though (much reduced tower damage for example, or capped tower damage. They DO destroy stuff too quickly when they get to it. Easy RP justification: The main damage they do is some sort of virulent poison thing, and towers don't care for that. There, they can rip players apart and yet chip away on towers)


It won't become useless. This is mostly the FOTM crowd speaking - they said traps were useless shortly ago as well. To them, useless does not actually mean "you cannot use this", it means "is not faceroll easymode and explained completely in a youtube video". Towers are still viable, and you can do insane survival completely without traps. Every other part of the game still works easily enough with apprentice towers as well.

Don't listen to these people, basically, they just follow tactics other people use, and declare anything not in these tactics useless without even trying to get around the problems.
If they hadn't seen that many people use traps, they'd still be in the forum, claiming traps were useless. They'll just call everything useless that isn't the current fad. Make your own strategies, and be surprised how easily you'll suceed with things the forums call "worthless".


I'm calling shenanigans on this.

The part of the game that I really enjoy is playing with tower setups and looking for a new way to approach the problem. And I have made some really really stupid setups just to test out theories for builds.

What drives me up a wall is when I consistently find that having physical towers just makes it easier for DEWs to circumvent all my defenses by jumping over them, get behind my towers, and beat them to death. Now if I'm playing my DPS toon, sure I can run over and hopefully fix the situation before another DEW does the same thing. But god forbid I try to make use of the "Active builder" buff and use my less than optimal DPS toon for defending the towers.

And yes, you are correct in that almost all the towers are useful for 95% of the game, but guess which percentage of the game goes the fastest? That same 95%! Leveling goes amazingly fast in this game, and it's not often that I see people hosting games for newbie toons, just to play the lower lvls (and who don't have completely twinked out toons). So those of us to really enjoy the game and play it way to much are stuck in the last 5% of it, having to deal with game breaking bugs (crystal are still exploding, kobolds still slide off of barricades), random DC's, and balance issues that do result in cookie cutter builds.

Like I keep saying, this is WoW all over again. The 95% of the game, and the 5% end game are so vastly different that to balance for both is a nightmare (no difficulty wave pun intended).

If you notice most of the complaints on these forums are about 2 things. 1) The bugs that ruin the game, and 2) having to center your entire build around the problem of DEW's. Not ogres, who are supposed to be the big bads.

It really frustrating when people (who I will admit can sound a little whiney) try to discuss real problems with the game, and then you come in here and try to say that their experiences are completely invalid and they just need to learn how to play the game.

If you are the master (since you claim the game is so easy), and you want them to stop complaining, then by all means give them what you say they want (cookie cutter, FOTM builds), shut them up, and move along!

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Two things:
(1)On all maps except for Glitter, I have places to put towers that aren't on the DEWs pathing and that works great.
(2)Some classes will become more powerful and some more weak with every buff, it is a constant back and forth and I love it-- makes it so I don't have the same fixed "this is the build that works" (boring!) and that I have to keep reinventing strategies (fun!) to be successful.

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Two things:
(1)On all maps except for Glitter, I have places to put towers that aren't on the DEWs pathing and that works great.
(2)Some classes will become more powerful and some more weak with every buff, it is a constant back and forth and I love it-- makes it so I don't have the same fixed "this is the build that works" (boring!) and that I have to keep reinventing strategies (fun!) to be successful.


Except squire towers just kept getting worse and worse after the initial release.

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Two things:
(1)On all maps except for Glitter, I have places to put towers that aren't on the DEWs pathing and that works great.
(2)Some classes will become more powerful and some more weak with every buff, it is a constant back and forth and I love it-- makes it so I don't have the same fixed "this is the build that works" (boring!) and that I have to keep reinventing strategies (fun!) to be successful.


1) care to share some of those? The way most people describe them it sounds more like taking advantage of AI bugs than a real strat.
2) I would agree with you to an extent, I enjoy new puzzles, and altering towers is one way to approach this. My problem with this is that if you are changing towers for the intent of changing how maps are approached, there really should be a significant stable period where things don't change (1, maybe 2 months) so everyone can kind of get on the same footing and learn the mechanics of the game. Then as a company Trendy could work the tower changes in storywise, and very openly say "The world is changing, the huntress got sick, now all traps are a little weaker." Now you have a story reason, and a HUGE heads up that game play is about to get overhauled.

But when stats on towers are getting changed several times a month, or even week, how are you supposed to nail down a solid build to then work off of and adjust with the changes?

I love this game. I think Trendy has a real gem here that could become a major hit. I just hate when I want to cuss at Trendy due to bugs or balancing issues.

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Squire defense are in a really bad place right now. Most of them cost way too much DU for next to no value. In fact, about the only unit that sees any real use is spike barricades because of the much larger health totals compared to magic barricades. They don't do nearly enough damage, have far too many limitations, and when coupled with the stupid DU costs, they might as well not exist.


Its not just that. Harpoon Towers require you to place them such that they can pierce through a number of enemies, which means placing them directly in the enemies path which works fine right up until DEWs tear everything to pieces in the blink of an eye. Bowling Balls are also very powerful in the right place but again, thanks to the stupid deflections that sometimes happen on the bowling balls they need to be placed directly in front of mobs. Which ties in with...

1) care to share some of those? The way most people describe them it sounds more like taking advantage of AI bugs than a real strat.


Thats because they are taking advantage of AI bugs. Some people are just too blind or ignorant to see that and think there isn't a problem with them because they have a 'superior strategy'. If you place any tower in a location that is above or below the normal path (discounting ramps and staircases) and in some cases I think placing them behind such things also, the DEW will never target them directly. They will still attack if they happen to wind up next to them but they never attack them otherwise.
Its easy to see on Pure Strategy. Put a Magic Missile somewhere near the crystal and the DEWs will swarm to it. Put a Lightning Tower on a table and they won't even know it exists until they happen to land next to it.

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I just really doubt towers being successful without being babysat at all times.

DEWs cannot reliably be stopped by ensnare. they can dash through them / jump through them. it doesn't happen all the time, but enough that you honestly can't say that towers wont be reached.

oh, and if you are talking any tower not in a str drain aura, it's dead immediately.

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What's funny is all this talk about towers being worthless and to just use Aura's/Traps is far more likely to get Aura's/Traps nerfed than it is to get towers buffed. Because the only thing wrong with Towers is that they can be damaged where as the other two can get the job done while being invulnerable.

I agree that DEW's on high level content are gamebreaking when they choose to seek out defenses. It's possible Trendy wants there to be the threat of your defenses actually going down though.

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What's funny is all this talk about towers being worthless and to just use Aura's/Traps is far more likely to get Aura's/Traps nerfed than it is to get towers buffed. Because the only thing wrong with Towers is that they can be damaged where as the other two can get the job done while being invulnerable.

I agree that DEW's on high level content are gamebreaking when they choose to seek out defenses. It's possible Trendy wants there to be the threat of your defenses actually going down though.


Then they should fix mobs so that the only one that's a threat isn't so broken its borderline retarded. The only threat to the crystal on Survival Mix Mode, apart from random hits that come from nowhere, are poison immune orcs that have too much health and rush through your defences. The only threat to players are Dark Elf Warriors (and Kobolds if you're melee). The only threat to towers are Dark Elf Warriors, again. And you can't defend against the orc reliably because the DEWs destroy anything you put down to block them without excessive support.

Right now the enemies in this game exist as 1. Dark Elf Warriors. 2. Poison Immune Orcs. 3. Wyvern swarms. Nothing else is remotely a threat and can be treated as cannon fodder to make survival games last 5x longer than necessary.

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Then they should fix mobs so that the only one that's a threat isn't so broken its borderline retarded. The only threat to the crystal on Survival Mix Mode, apart from random hits that come from nowhere, are poison immune orcs that have too much health and rush through your defences. The only threat to players are Dark Elf Warriors (and Kobolds if you're melee). The only threat to towers are Dark Elf Warriors, again. And you can't defend against the orc reliably because the DEWs destroy anything you put down to block them without excessive support.

Right now the enemies in this game exist as 1. Dark Elf Warriors. 2. Poison Immune Orcs. 3. Wyvern swarms. Nothing else is remotely a threat and can be treated as cannon fodder to make survival games last 5x longer than necessary.


I'll agree with this. I want the game to be challenging, but the whole game, not just one mob. If DEWS were not so over the top, I would bet that the number of posts seeking builds would drop. As is you have to create and evolve your build around the threat of DEWs almost exclusively.

I would love it if they would seriously tone down the DEW's, and cause the other mobs to be a viable threat. As is goblins are only a problem when they distract your towers from shooting other things.

I can't help but think part of the problem here is an inherent complication that arises from having mob controlling abilities in the game, such as ensnare aura and choking gas trap thingy. In this game time is one of your most valuable commodities. With more time your towers can dps for longer and/or you have longer to run across the map to kill the mobs your self. Another way to buy time is for blockers to survive longer, hence the frequent use of blockades and str drain auras. They are there to hold the mobs back and buy you more time.

These are fun tools, and after a while almost become essential. When was the last time you tried playing a survival map, or insane diff without one of these tools? Especially ensnare auras! They are too useful to not use.

The problem becomes when the developers try to balance around these things. How do you make your mobs a threat when ensnare + apprentice guardian = 8% movement speed, or str drain + apprentice guardian = 8% damage done? Add a healing aura on that, and a squire can hold a whole area solo!

You saw this problem also in City of Heroes with the Controller class. They became so essential to fighting end game bosses that they got nerfed pretty hard. Then when PvP was added, and a Controller could hold another player indefinitely they got nerfed into the ground.

So with the amount of hard/soft controls plus the amount of AoE damage towers and auras can put out, how do you add challenge into the game? So far the answer seems to be DEW's, but then the game becomes "OUR HEROES VS DEW'S, and those other guys too."

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Its not just that. Harpoon Towers require you to place them such that they can pierce through a number of enemies, which means placing them directly in the enemies path which works fine right up until DEWs tear everything to pieces in the blink of an eye. Bowling Balls are also very powerful in the right place but again, thanks to the stupid deflections that sometimes happen on the bowling balls they need to be placed directly in front of mobs. Which ties in with...



Thats because they are taking advantage of AI bugs. Some people are just too blind or ignorant to see that and think there isn't a problem with them because they have a 'superior strategy'. If you place any tower in a location that is above or below the normal path (discounting ramps and staircases) and in some cases I think placing them behind such things also, the DEW will never target them directly. They will still attack if they happen to wind up next to them but they never attack them otherwise.
Its easy to see on Pure Strategy. Put a Magic Missile somewhere near the crystal and the DEWs will swarm to it. Put a Lightning Tower on a table and they won't even know it exists until they happen to land next to it.


LOL, would this be the same bug that keeps me from being able to heal auras if my cursor is placed above a table? Every time I run out to repair auras I would have to remember to hit 4, then move my cursor up/down/left/right at least a little, or the repair didn't take place.

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So with the amount of hard/soft controls plus the amount of AoE damage towers and auras can put out, how do you add challenge into the game? So far the answer seems to be DEW's, but then the game becomes "OUR HEROES VS DEW'S, and those other guys too."


Which is compounded by the fact that because they are intended to be dealt with by the player directly, their damage means they obliterate emplacements and have huge amounts of health in order to be a challenged to a player...and yet routinely their AI has them completely ignore players and destroy everything else around them. Inexplicably and completely at random.

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[quote]
I can't help but think part of the problem here is an inherent complication that arises from having mob controlling abilities in the game, such as ensnare aura and choking gas trap thingy. In this game time is one of your most valuable commodities. With more time your towers can dps for longer and/or you have longer to run across the map to kill the mobs your self. Another way to buy time is for blockers to survive longer, hence the frequent use of blockades and str drain auras. They are there to hold the mobs back and buy you more time.[/quote]

Most tower defense games have those, however, so it's not a problem with control abilities as such. It's more a problem of most mobs not being beefy enough. If Orcs for example would survive a lot longer than they do, the situation would be very different. Imagine if all Orcs in survival were mini ogres from Halloween with more HP.

Or if EVERY mob except ogres and wyverns in insane maps had the chance to:
-Be immune to tower type X (Apprentice towers, Squire towers, hunter traps, etc)
-Be immune to player damage
-Have TWO such immunities at the same time (immune to app&Squire towers, immune to player damage&traps, etc) at later waves

What if certain types of mobs on insane maps were immune to player damage from X class? Say, Orcs immune to huntresses (they just ignore arrows), mages immune to apprentices (they absorb the magic), goblins immune to squires (they easily dodge), and DEWs immune to monks (because they're ninjas)?

That would change defense setups drastically and more like most tower defense games, no? And you could still solo it: Your setup would have to take care of immunes. Some of the best TDs used things like this to require you to use control abilities while at the same time making mobs a threat.

Thing is: ANY Situation where only 1-2 tower types are used for insane maps is a bad situation. Insane maps should make you use all types of towers, or struggle.

[quote]Except squire towers just kept getting worse and worse after the initial release. [/quote]

They were completely, over the top overpowered at release, so yes, they should be getting worse compared to the release.

[quote]they just need to learn how to play the game.[/quote]

Thing is: They do. People can deal with DEWs just fine. When superloot first started, barely any setup used traps and people did it fine. Only when some people finally showed their trap strategies everyone and their dog copied it, and now you folks pretend this is the only way to do it.

It's hilarious, if it weren't so pathetic. My post even said that DEWs should be changed, remember? They're silly, and I think they shouldn't be the only difficulty.
At the same time, this forum blows the issue COMPLETELY out of proportion. Fact: Traps aren't the only way to do this. This was proven over and over, and there are dozens of successful setups for survival insane that don't use traps.

This is WoW over again indeed, but not the way you think. Just like WoW, people screech about FOTM class combinations and spit on anything they don't read in guides. This reminds me of Paladin tanks in Burning Crusade. At first everyone yelled that they weren't usable at all. People didn't care and used them anyway, and suddenly, the same people screamed that Paladin tanks were too powerful and forced you to use them (after all, Illidan or Vashj were much easier and much less RNG reliant with a Paladin tank). Without Paladins being changed at all.

The main problem is the attitude of people that only FOTM is worth to play and everything else is useless. Just like in WOW.

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The only way to do mixed mode is with traps, auras, walls, and at the most a few towers for AA. I would like to see a build without using traps actually work.

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So far the answer seems to be DEW's, but then the game becomes "OUR HEROES VS DEW'S, and those other guys too."


The sad thing is its not even that. If you were prepared to sit around for 6 hours without doing anything you could quite happily solo an entire wave 1-25 Insane Alchemy Labs without having to kill a single Dark Elf Warriors yourself. Auras and traps down for the defences, then stand on top of the alchemy equipment in the centre. From that location you should be able to reach most of your traps/auras to repair since the ones at the back don't drain/trigger as much.

Because DEWs can't reach you and they have no other viable targets they will spaz out and bounce around doing nothing. There are some other locations such as on top of the bookshelves but that gets the point across better. As such, the only enemy that is remotely threatening to you is no longer a problem. So long as you wielded a high projectile speed weapon and were willing to pay attention for 6 hours you could kill any orc that broke through the defences yourself.

DEWs should be deadly to you but attack alone or in very small groups. The current state of them is tedious at best. With my Squire you can't go 5 seconds without a swarm of ninja's landing on your head. It gets kinda ridiculous and is the reason I no longer have any interest in playing any character during waves but my Squire with his 5k hp and ~80% resistances and fairy because surviving otherwise is just a constant battle for 20-30 minutes per wave.

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Towers will remain the last choice, after auras and traps, for as long as Dark Elf Warriors can destroy them in 3 seconds flat. Even if you're using a hybrid app or squire to build them and play during the waves the amount of health and damage you lose before you can upgrade them again is troublesome, not to mention this can happen in multiple areas at once and most people don't want to be sat around babysitting towers non-stop for 30 minutes during the ridiculously long survival waves.


The only way you can use towers is by putting them in areas that glitch the DEW AI and cause them to not actively seek them out.



This is so true. There is almost no point to using towers at this point, NO set up will keep towers up, not even with Strength drain. They still die in roughly 5 seconds, which is far too fast.

When people realise DEW's are crazy broken, that'll be the day the game becomes 100% fun to play again <3

Well, that and when elitists gtfo.

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Thing is: They do. People can deal with DEWs just fine. When superloot first started, barely any setup used traps and people did it fine. Only when some people finally showed their trap strategies everyone and their dog copied it, and now you folks pretend this is the only way to do it.


Define FINE in both of those sentences. Are there currently, or where there previously, builds that focused on towers that were just as effective as the current builds with Traps?

This was proven over and over, and there are dozens of successful setups for survival insane that don't use traps.


Examples would be much appreciated. I and I'm sure most of the people on this forum would LOVE to see an alternative.

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The sad thing is its not even that. If you were prepared to sit around for 6 hours without doing anything you could quite happily solo an entire wave 1-25 Insane Alchemy Labs without having to kill a single Dark Elf Warriors yourself. Auras and traps down for the defences, then stand on top of the alchemy equipment in the centre. From that location you should be able to reach most of your traps/auras to repair since the ones at the back don't drain/trigger as much.

Because DEWs can't reach you and they have no other viable targets they will spaz out and bounce around doing nothing. There are some other locations such as on top of the bookshelves but that gets the point across better. As such, the only enemy that is remotely threatening to you is no longer a problem. So long as you wielded a high projectile speed weapon and were willing to pay attention for 6 hours you could kill any orc that broke through the defences yourself.

DEWs should be deadly to you but attack alone or in very small groups. The current state of them is tedious at best. With my Squire you can't go 5 seconds without a swarm of ninja's landing on your head. It gets kinda ridiculous and is the reason I no longer have any interest in playing any character during waves but my Squire with his 5k hp and ~80% resistances and fairy because surviving otherwise is just a constant battle for 20-30 minutes per wave.


I will agree the time commitment is a real issue, and hope Trendy finds a way to address this. I know it was part of what killed Sanctum for me.

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The people arguing against toning down DE wars don't seem to understand that you can have challenge in the game without making 2 of the 4 tower builders useless.

I remember the first time I saw my bowling ball tower attack. It was hilarious. I couldn't leave it. I watched it and cackled, then called my friends in the game over so that they could watch it too.

I don't care which towers are optimal. I will find a way around expensive DU or farm till my eyes bleed just to use my squire towers again. All I need is to be able to know that if I do everything I can to keep my towers alive, they will stay alive. At this point, there is nothing you can do to ensure that.

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A lot of the people against changes, as others have already said, exclusively play huntresses and monks or just got in the habbit of using traps and auras only.

What about squires? Towers meant to be worthless?

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A lot of the people against changes, as others have already said, exclusively play huntresses and monks or just got in the habbit of using traps and auras only.

What about squires? Towers meant to be worthless?


They aren't anything near worthless. Just "less popular" in the current state of the game.

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They aren't anything near worthless. Just "less popular" in the current state of the game.


You need far, far less stats to make auras and traps work in survival as opposed to a squire set up. And even then, there are many things squire towers are unable to do alone.

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You need far, far less stats to make auras and traps work in survival as opposed to a squire set up. And even then, there are many things squire towers are unable to do alone.


Yes and before that, lightning auras were 2 DU less and there was no nerf on the lightning tower. Things change. Right now, towers aren't a much preferred choice, that much is undeniably true. However, things will always change, so maybe next month it's this thread, but about traps, or hero damage.

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Maybe if they could limit how many swarm you at once, I dunno i mean you never get 6 or more ogres swarming th map at once. Makes me thing of insane monster fest and everyone defending the bridge. If you die at the wrong tile you respawn getting hacked to bits by the DEWS runing around the spawn. =3

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