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diminishing returns


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well it all matters on what your spec is, if you're a tower health spec mage and only using blocks. honestly nothing, but if you're a tower damage spec apprentice or monk when is damage enough as far as returns kicking your butt, and you have to invest (or logically have to invest) in attack rate, health, or radius. there has to be an answer to these questions.

No one can tell me "just keep pumping points in damage even if you're getting 2 damage per 5 points" thats a worthless and cost ineffiecient price.

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Ok guys here are some hard numbers.

@ 334 tower rate MM towers have .11 and FB will have .33 attack rate
@ 374 tower rate MM towers have .11 and FB will have .32 attack rate

Ive tried going up to 410 and these figures dont change. I suggest you limit your app tower rate to 374.


This is assuming that the fire rate is tied to the displayed number exactly. Can anyone confirm this is the case? It might be tedious, but could you count the actual shots per minute at 374 and 410 for your FB. I suspect it might be on a gradient that can't be displayed accurately.

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if you have to work off whats displayed it's pointless ,it's better to work off whats accounted for via the HUD, because honestly the difference of .11 and 0.10 might be a 10% increase but really how much goes into over kill and how much connects aswells as can you really tell the difference of that speed? (if you say you can, you're a liar with pants on fire)

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well it all matters on what your spec is, if you're a tower health spec mage and only using blocks. honestly nothing, but if you're a tower damage spec apprentice or monk when is damage enough as far as returns kicking your butt, and you have to invest (or logically have to invest) in attack rate, health, or radius. there has to be an answer to these questions.

No one can tell me "just keep pumping points in damage even if you're getting 2 damage per 5 points" thats a worthless and cost ineffiecient price.


If my towers aren't getting hit and my auras and traps have plenty of juice, then I don't need more tower health. That's when you stop there. I think more than 200 is overkill even for survival unless it's a wall build only. I think my traptress has just over 100 tower health and her inferno traps last the whole round without repair even on later waves. My monk has over 200 tower health and things never even get close to the red, I could probably even pull points out.

I'd really like to make a case for range, but it's so situational. A lot of maps don't have huge, long, nicely lined up corridors or pathways to make use of huge range to begin with. And monk auras can actually suffer from being too large.

So yeah, I'd say keep pumping damage and rate (unless we find rate has a soft cap) because there is no where else to go given the current content.

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at some point with monk auras you could easily use 1 aura group instead of 2 if they become large enough. sure it might die faster because you're getting double the mobs but you increase the amount of DU so you could toss around the build even more to makei t more effective, just because something works doesn't mean it can't be improved apon. As for "no where else to put it" again people, you're not basing anything off of fact just from what you've experienced, we have no clue if what we're doing is the BESt, it just works. and with the come of nightmare maybe somethings can be tweak and become BETTER.

I know sometimes auras won't even lose a bit of health during a round or traps/towers don't die, thats not what i care about, read the topic of this post, it's about diminishing returns, i want to learn the math behind the game. stop please stop giving me hearsay and give information about the topic, because regardless of if you care or would find it useless because what you're doing is working, again, it could always be improved

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if you really are inclined to work formulas, open mode is probably where you want to go. i've never been on there, but it's my understanding you have full access to the game's coding if you look for it.

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at some point with monk auras you could easily use 1 aura group instead of 2 if they become large enough. sure it might die faster because you're getting double the mobs but you increase the amount of DU so you could toss around the build even more to makei t more effective, just because something works doesn't mean it can't be improved apon. As for "no where else to put it" again people, you're not basing anything off of fact just from what you've experienced, we have no clue if what we're doing is the BESt, it just works. and with the come of nightmare maybe somethings can be tweak and become BETTER.

I know sometimes auras won't even lose a bit of health during a round or traps/towers don't die, thats not what i care about, read the topic of this post, it's about diminishing returns, i want to learn the math behind the game. stop please stop giving me hearsay and give information about the topic, because regardless of if you care or would find it useless because what you're doing is working, again, it could always be improved


then go test for yourself on open?

export your char to open, upgrade stuff one way, reexport, do it another, check the numbers.

For a monk, it as simple as "waht other stat would you put it into"

does your stuff survive a round...then no more health needed.

Is it sufficiently big, no more radius.

attack speed...?

dmg, well, might as well, because especially with UPGRADES scaling now, 3 star stuff has way more dmg than it used to, and it works off your base.

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at some point with monk auras you could easily use 1 aura group instead of 2 if they become large enough. sure it might die faster because you're getting double the mobs but you increase the amount of DU so you could toss around the build even more to makei t more effective, just because something works doesn't mean it can't be improved apon. As for "no where else to put it" again people, you're not basing anything off of fact just from what you've experienced, we have no clue if what we're doing is the BESt, it just works. and with the come of nightmare maybe somethings can be tweak and become BETTER.

I know sometimes auras won't even lose a bit of health during a round or traps/towers don't die, thats not what i care about, read the topic of this post, it's about diminishing returns, i want to learn the math behind the game. stop please stop giving me hearsay and give information about the topic, because regardless of if you care or would find it useless because what you're doing is working, again, it could always be improved
this kind of information is in the class sub-forums. and I'll tell you right now that it's really not worth worrying too much about but go ahead and get the math down because I understand the desire to understand what's happening too.

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I'm sorry, but my and other's direct evidence of numbers is not "hearsay." My evidence IS fact. How could it not be? I'm not making this crap up to bs you. ANY stat line will work. This game is more than possible with crappy gear and crappy set ups. No one here is talking about "what works." We're talking about placing points the most efficient way on a high end scale. None of this matters for current content outside of maybe the last 5 waves of survival.

And I did mention current content. Why would I build my stat line for a mode or map that doesn't exist yet? Until Nightmare I will not need more tower health and barely any more range. As far as the monk aura, go put 200+ into range and play Spook and tell me how you set up your auras. You won't be able to cover all your chokes because you can't actually place them due to overlap between crystal and spawn. And that's just one map as an example.

And like the previous poster suggested, go test it for yourself if you don't believe us. It's insulting to ask the community for diminishing return numbers and then smack the answer back because you don't like it.

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my aura range is at 200 and i have NO problem putting down auras in the 5 key spots in spooky...
YET.. due to thier size i only have to place ONE aura down instead of 2 to cover the ENTIRE hallway in the throne room.
so yes.. aura size.. DOES count for consideration when it comes to min maxing.. tyvm.

simply put.. if you have a problem placing an aura because its too big.. then
A you dont know how to place well...
B your range stat is 700+ with a monk guardian for kicks...
C see A..
D your trying to place 7 auras up around the crystal in deeper well.. in which case.. see A or C.

there simply is no "hard" to place choke points and popular spots for auras.
those that rely on 2 in close proximity.. easily get replaced with 1

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