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diminishing returns


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Alright, lets talk.

I've been playing this game a decent amount so far and i'm wondering if anyones crunched the numbers to know when enough is enough. I'm reworking my gear a bit on all my characters because as i get better gear i've noticed it takes so much to get so little, it took me almost 100points of tower health to go from 19k (fully upgraded) to 20k (fully upgraded) on my mag barricade. i've also noticed on my huntress the damage jump is quite small with the more hero damage i invest.

so with that said, when do you say screw X stat and start investing in something else that hasn't yet been effected my diminishing returns?

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because of respecing your hero forcing you to invest all 299points before you can see effect i cannot do any testing, however i'll try and explain the situation as best i can.

I was 350 tower health, give or take a few points. I had 19k and change fully upgraded to 3 stars, when i upgraded my gear more and switched to a new weapon/pet i ended with 470 tower health, i only have 20127 at full upgrade, thats a pretty large upgrade in tower stats for a very small difference in tower health.

i would love to see a chart or something for each stat and when returns kick in, i know for example tower cast rate or trap reset starts earily. most people for some reason invest heavily in this and it takes a ton to get just 0.1 of a sec, which is very little and typically costs quite a large investment.

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I've posted on this in other threads and have gone into the math on diminishing returns, but I'll just sum up here. Plus Trendy keeps adjusting the ramps for various things (like monk electric aura which was my latest example).

First off the DR for some stats is harsher than others. You've already noted that tower health pays out poorly.

For towers I've found that pumping tower damage is the way to go. It's more dps per point than tower attack rate. Those are the only two stats that affect damage. Any nominal range and hp should be fine. I don't know exactly when rate will "catch up" to damage, but I haven't found it yet and I'm a few points shy of 600 tower damage on my mage and maybe about 250 rate. (The reason why range doesn't matter is because everything is caught in an ensnare, which is a staple on any map I run. HP doesn't matter much because I don't want my towers ever taking damage to begin with and how poorly it kicks out.)

For Hero stats obviously the only way to get more damage is to increase hero damage or an ability that increases it further or does damage on its own. But unlike tower stats you can't just ignore survivability because your DPS hero is on the floor and not retired. I'd say you can ignore hp/resists/casting rate for any normal insane map. I got through them just fine before super loot with pretty noob gear. It should be even easier now. But for survival or mix mode maps you're going to get plastered by warriors and you'll need at least physical resist anyway, so it's better to spread the stats around. My "pure damage" set of armor is only about 15-20% more dps than my "high resist" set. And not dying every 5 seconds will surely kick out more damage in the long term. :P

I'm not sure that exactly answered the question, but that's how I build my gear and I would say it is quite effective. Very specific builds will stray from that. I keep a few high tower hp sets for wall building for example (for survival only).

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I've posted on this in other threads and have gone into the math on diminishing returns, but I'll just sum up here. Plus Trendy keeps adjusting the ramps for various things (like monk electric aura which was my latest example).

First off the DR for some stats is harsher than others. You're already noted that tower health pays out poorly.

For towers I've found that pumping tower damage is the way to go. It's more dps per point than tower attack rate. Those are the only two stats that affect damage. Any nominal range and hp should be fine. I don't know exactly when rate will "catch up" to damage, but I haven't found it yet and I'm a few points shy of 600 tower damage on my mage and maybe about 250 rate. (The reason why range doesn't matter is because everything is caught in an ensnare, which is a staple on any map I run. HP doesn't matter much because I don't want my towers ever taking damage to begin with and how poorly it kicks out.)

For Hero stats obviously the only way to get more damage is to increase hero damage or an ability that increases it further or does damage on its own. But unlike tower stats you can't just ignore survivability because your DPS hero is on the floor and not retired. I'd say you can ignore hp/resists/casting rate for any normal insane map. I got through them just fine before super loot with pretty noob gear. It should be even easier now. But for survival or mix mode maps you're going to get plastered by warriors and you'll need at least physical resist anyway, so it's better to spread the stats around. My "pure damage" set of armor is only about 15-20% more dps than my "high resist" set. And not dying every 5 seconds will surely kick out more damage in the long term. :P

I'm not sure that exactly answered the question, but that's how I build my gear and I would say it is quite effective. Very specific builds will stray from that. I keep a few high tower hp sets for wall building for example (for survival only).


Rate has already caught up. You should put points into damage and attack rate at a 5:3 ratio, respectively. For the most dps. I imagine if you added 100~ attack rate or so like it would be if you were doing the 5:3 ratio you'd get at least 1k more dps on all of your towers.

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That 5:3 ratio does sound about right. I'll take that into consideration when I add new pieces to my sets and test numbers. Haven't had the chance since I literally just got this stuff the last few days doing mix mode instead of survival. Thanks for the heads up. :)

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See, my issue isn't so much i'm unaware of how to improve or lost with my spec, it's primarily to answer the question of the numbers themselves as in can we sit down and figure out at what number do DR kick in and how strongly they do. hopefully to try and get a more accurate read on setup, for better min/maxing (elitistjerks style). i understand what you're saying and i was able to surmise whats been said already, just want more information with actual numbers.

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500+ Tower attack + 300+ Attack rate on my app does around 9k DPS for the MM, so I would say 5:3 is correct. As for tower health the DR is great, but for squire towers I would still pump all into it.

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Smart People:
Keep in mind when determining a ratio that we aren't necessarily looking for maximizing DPS, but instead KillsPerSec is probably a better benchmark. Obviously KPS is harder (a lot harder) to quantify so I basically look for the perfect DPS ratio and fudge it to favor the cast speed more.

Or an example: A billion dmg Magic Missle that shoots every second isn't as good as a million damage Missle that shoots 10 times per second. The first is a 1,000 M DPS, the second is just 10 M DPS... but better. The first example would have benefited from spending more points in rate....




That said, we definitely need more discussion in the community finding the "perfect ratio." I'm amazed (given the number of hardcore players) that the ratios aren't better known...
I expected graphs upon graphs when the DDDK released. I would do it if I knew what to do with it.

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For monk, I've found that diminishing returns really start kicking in between 250 and 300 for tower damage. 901-1000 tick electric auras (with active hero boost) seems to be the sweet spot for KPS.

With my hybrid experiment, I'm hitting 150k DPS, with 1,500 or so fully upgraded auras (4500 with app guardian, instead of my chicken or animus.). Considering to get the same aura damage I would need between 400 or 500 tower damage on an inactive character to match my active damage, I've found it more efficient to go hybrid if I build, and save my hero monk for when I'm not building.

Also, before you go bragging about breaking 350k DPS on your hero monk, please note that with an equivalent gear to your 350k DPs monk I could probably get between 200-250k hero damage.

Also,

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Smart People:
Keep in mind when determining a ratio that we aren't necessarily looking for maximizing DPS, but instead KillsPerSec is probably a better benchmark. Obviously KPS is harder (a lot harder) to quantify so I basically look for the perfect DPS ratio and fudge it to favor the cast speed more.

Or an example: A billion dmg Magic Missle that shoots every second isn't as good as a million damage Missle that shoots 10 times per second. The first is a 1,000 M DPS, the second is just 10 M DPS... but better. The first example would have benefited from spending more points in rate....




That said, we definitely need more discussion in the community finding the "perfect ratio." I'm amazed (given the number of hardcore players) that the ratios aren't better known...
I expected graphs upon graphs when the DDDK released. I would do it if I knew what to do with it.


At around 334 rate my MM has a 0.11 Shooting rate. Thinking of investing more to make it 0.10 but not really sure if it's that big a difference. Don't really use it that much, i'll experiment more but next time i'll use the FB as my basis.

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Just to compare to Deathrow (and confirm the numbers) my 600/250 does just under 8k. I assume we're talking no upgrades on the towers. Even accounting for 525/325 (making the totals the same) I'd still be short on dps. The good news is all I have to do is add in one tower rate piece and I'll be set.

To the OP's follow up: Yes, I'd like hard numbers too. I don't know how to access those though. All I do is test things in my tavern and record my own numbers and hope Trendy doesn't move them around too much from patch to patch.

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For the MM. But im not sure if the same can be said for the other towers. I think their rates are different. Will post more after a little experiment.

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Also at 500+ Stats in tower attack for every stat you put in it only adds 3 points to damage.

But it might grow even smaller at higher stats. Can't give the exact numbers, just going from my memory.

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I'd also like to point out that the attack rate on towers is not a 1:1 to actual rate because of attack animations. The actual rate is always slower than listed. I think traps and auras have real rates though. When testing DR for rate I always count shots over a static period. I never pay attention to the number displayed.

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ok we're starting to shape up this conversation.

and yes, i am very surprised i'm not able to find a person who has jumped into the math end of this game and figured these numbers out.

What i'm looking for to be alittle more clear because people are pretty much just giving guesstimations, is alittle more testing. yes MM 0.11 to 0.10 is a 10% increase thats nice but how many points did it take you to get from 0.11 to 0.10 and if you invest that many points into that as apposed to tower health or tower damage does it benefit you more or less.

this works for tower spec and hero spec as far as getting the most out of your characters, this is the kinda stuff i would pay attention to in world of warcraft. i know for sure there is a way to find these numbers and solve this problem. =p

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Yah i've been thinking of doing the math on this but the incoming nightmare patch might botch up the numbers so ill wait a couple of weeks after that.

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The health for auras (as far as ensnare and lightning are concerned) are = 100 * TowerHP^(.4) according to the dev kit.

WARNING MATH:
As far as the slope is concerned (the "rate of change") consider the important part to be just x^(2/5) which results in 0.4x^-0.6 as our slope.

it becomes simple to tell when the benefit is not worth it (ie not receiving a single point of health) which is where the increase is less than .01

0.1 = .4/x^.6

log x = log (40)/0.6

x >= 468 for you to stop gaining points.

Example of multipliers:
100 = 6.3096
150 = 7.4206
200 = 8.3256
250 = 9.1028
300 = 9.7915
350 = 10.414


TBH I wouldn't go over 250 as far as HP is concerned. Every 50 points up untill that point is ~an extra 100 hp for auras, with 250 being 80ish more than 200 and 300 being only 60-70ish over the last.

DON'T GO OVER 450 WHATEVER YOU DO

Damage has far more variables to track, but it's just a matter of a bigger equation tracking 2 variables which I'll see about later.

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so, i've looked at 431 aura damage, my electric aura does 1265. but at 423 it does 1250. so for 8 aura damage points i only gain 15 damage. that seems to be a large investment for a small amount of damage. i really wish i could pay to respec my gear. anyone have some more numbers we can look at to crack this?

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so, i've looked at 431 aura damage, my electric aura does 1265. but at 423 it does 1250. so for 8 aura damage points i only gain 15 damage. that seems to be a large investment for a small amount of damage. i really wish i could pay to respec my gear. anyone have some more numbers we can look at to crack this?


but what other worthwhile stat would you put it into?

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Ok guys here are some hard numbers.

@ 334 tower rate MM towers have .11 and FB will have .33 attack rate
@ 374 tower rate MM towers have .11 and FB will have .32 attack rate

Ive tried going up to 410 and these figures dont change. I suggest you limit your app tower rate to 374.

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