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Ranked/Open Banning Authority [Update: 3/6/12]


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I honestly think telling the users what the absolute maximum a weapon can have in any stat at lv 1 would be an INCREDIBLY helpful prevention to the banning of users who don't know if they have a hacked weapon/armor. I've been wondering myself, the maximum stat on any item that's allowed, specifically for a staff, I have a staff with a massive number for projectile speed at ilv1 which I'm outright scared to use cause I don't want to have my account banned.

We NEED some sort of help to keep us from being clueless Trendy. ;p Without having to ask with every item we want to buy.

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I think these bans seem quite unfair

I feel quite strongly about this issue insomuch that i registered to post my 2 Cents regarding account bans and hacked items

Trust me im against the hackers/modders what ever they are called including all sorts of hacks including items. (But how do we know)

What really gets me is that Trendy feel that its ok to ban users for hacked items. Yet the User do not know these are hacked and Trendy set no guidelines, its almost as if they want everyones account to get banned.

There are no set guidelines as to what is a hacked item. It may be counter productive to give guildelines for those hacking the items but. Is this going to keep going until all the Customers leave?
OR
Maybe this is the idea more people banned is more potential sales as they may buy under a different steam account ? ( i know for sure if i was selling items for Paypal $$ whats the harm in buying the game again to profit again i guess they would have made enough to continue investing in their online business)

There are no steps in place for us to identify items that are hacked avoiding these

Banning of ;legitimate users will infuriate the community when really the victim in some// maybe all hasn't done anything wrong, i know a few people banned but would if knowingly had hacked items would get rid. All those saying they agree with the bans.. until what it happens to you? then you no longer think its fair.

Trendy can not stop the paypal shops this shows as they still exist and are clearly visible every time you log in to ranked mode, how can they expect us to go above and beyond what they are capable of doing when they know the guidelines themselves they set them.

I for one am fearful of my account as i do not know any items i own are hacked or not. knowingly if they were they would be vendored/dropped or otherwise. but as we star the game items are of poor quality, get to end game and items start looking unreal.

I think if Trendy cannot control the flow of hacked items and paypal shops then the shop feature should be disabled and reworked.. until its at a time deemed safe.
I think its quite safe to say most would believe the paypal shops are not selling legitimate items and i would agree to this statement.

I think this needs to be addressed and dealt with sharpish as not only is it unfair to some customers its also a big downfall to this game. We spend hours grinding away to become better and with a fell swoop all that is taken away. Its safe to say the features you provide are not safe to be using.

For all we know it could be trendy selling the hacked items to increase balance sheet. Hence how it is known the items are hacked.


PLEASE NOTE *******
None of the information is fact neither am i incinuating anything nor do i want to inflame a situation greater than it already is. I just want this to be sorted and i believe some people just want to play the game the way it was designed. Without constantly fearing that you may get a ban if you buy from a shop.

And as a little analogy as other have made, i don't walk into a shop and be scared im going to get accused of shoplifting every time i pick an item up.. its only against the law and rules if i put it in my pocket knowingly and walk out of the shop. If someone else puts it in my pocket without my knowledge i am not guilty of the offence. Obviously proving it is a different matter but all the same.

hence i'm asking for the shops to be disabled as you cant ever be sure and.. i think people would rather keep their accounts than the hacked gear.

Maybe their is a better suggestion, maybe storing char data server side or something, i mean you need a online connection to play anyways so whats the harm.

Any how rant over i guess, i just don't want this to be happening to me and want to know how to safeguard from this, (and i've already stopped buying from the shops listed in the game as they truly arent safe at all, so i spoil it for myself.) for someone that plays solo a lot you rely on shops.

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I've jusy played a game with a guy who was clearly a hacker. We've got all the way to last survival wave and I got some really great loot.
Is this a violation or I can live with that? To clarify:

- I did not use any hacking programs
- I did not use any hacked items


In fact, there was a game that I joined and there was a hacker. All the items are legit drops from mobs.

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[quote]I don't hack/cheat, but I'm banned for having hacked items?

  • This is by far the most common reason for people saying that they were banned. I'll say it's fair and just that you should be aware of all rules and regulations of the game/server. Being unaware is not an excuse and never an excuse. It's the same for law systems in our world.
  • If you can find your way to the forums to post an "I'm banned" thread, you have no reasons not to have also read the [Stickies] that can help prevent you from making bannable mistakes.
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure I'm not banned.. haven't logged in for a while.. but I read this today and had to laugh.

As of the last time I played (about 2-3 weeks) the moderators of this forum were unable/unwilling to identify hacked items.

Being banned for purchasing items that were available in game for 90+ days is an absolute joke. It is Trendy saying to their customers... "We decided to ban people due to our unwillingness to fix their game. We were too busy releasing paid DLC content to stop the hacked items. We just let them exist for 90+ days to the point where the line between hacked and not became more and more unclear"... and now, we are going to ban people that aren't willing to do a few hours of research on an item before purchasing it.

Laughable. Arrogant and entitled. I remember reading a thread many months ago by someone at Trendy talking about how they were gamers so they wanted to make a game for gamers. Well they certainly possess the arrogance and sense of entitlement to have the title "gamer".

To make assumptions about the intelligence of their customers and at the same time insult the intelligence of their customers would normally be hard to do.. but Trendy is pro..what can I say.

I remember when people were upset about hacked items and USD sellers that nothing was being done about. Some people commented that Trendy was "too stupid" to realize the problem and do anything about it. I laughed at those people. The same way I laugh at Trendy now for calling their customers stupid.

What a shame.

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I honestly think telling the users what the absolute maximum a weapon can have in any stat at lv 1 would be an INCREDIBLY helpful prevention to the banning of users who don't know if they have a hacked weapon/armor. I've been wondering myself, the maximum stat on any item that's allowed, specifically for a staff, I have a staff with a massive number for projectile speed at ilv1 which I'm outright scared to use cause I don't want to have my account banned.

We NEED some sort of help to keep us from being clueless Trendy. ;p Without having to ask with every item we want to buy.


It's a double-edged sword. While telling people the exact legitimate stats would be incredibly helpful, it would also ensure that every hacker knew exactly what to use. The game would begin to be balanced around hackers. I think the second situation is far worse than the first. We've changed our banning practices to greatly decrease the amount of legitimate players being banned.

I'm pretty sure I'm not banned.. haven't logged in for a while.. but I read this today and had to laugh.

As of the last time I played (about 2-3 weeks) the moderators of this forum were unable/unwilling to identify hacked items.

Being banned for purchasing items that were available in game for 90+ days is an absolute joke. It is Trendy saying to their customers... "We decided to ban people due to our unwillingness to fix their game. We were too busy releasing paid DLC content to stop the hacked items. We just let them exist for 90+ days to the point where the line between hacked and not became more and more unclear"... and now, we are going to ban people that aren't willing to do a few hours of research on an item before purchasing it.

Laughable. Arrogant and entitled. I remember reading a thread many months ago by someone at Trendy talking about how they were gamers so they wanted to make a game for gamers. Well they certainly possess the arrogance and sense of entitlement to have the title "gamer".

To make assumptions about the intelligence of their customers and at the same time insult the intelligence of their customers would normally be hard to do.. but Trendy is pro..what can I say.

I remember when people were upset about hacked items and USD sellers that nothing was being done about. Some people commented that Trendy was "too stupid" to realize the problem and do anything about it. I laughed at those people. The same way I laugh at Trendy now for calling their customers stupid.

What a shame.


There are many people who cannot tell the difference between legitimate and hacked gear. As I said above, we've changed our banning practices to greatly decrease the number of people who are unfairly banned for unwittingly using hacked items. This process is both a policing and an educational effort.

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There are many people who cannot tell the difference between legitimate and hacked gear. As I said above, we've changed our banning practices to greatly decrease the number of people who are unfairly banned for unwittingly using hacked items. This process is both a policing and an educational effort.


It's good that you have made that decision.

It would seem obvious to many before you even started the bans that bans should be reserved for people creating the items or selling for USD. People that simply purchased the items should just have the items deleted from their inventory due to things I mentioned before.

The fact that Trendy decided to come out swinging and THEN decide to tone it down is just another example of figuring something out after the fact that could have been deduced beforehand if the proper attention and effort were put into it.

This is just another example of Trendy being oblivious to reality. You guys are great at apologizing and adjusting once the community complains. Someone there needs to step up and point out these issues before it happens. Either you don't have that employee.. or, more likely, you do and you just aren't listening to them. One or two instances of these things happens all the time to every company in every industry. This is more like a pattern though.. one that doesn't seem to be changing anytime soon.

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It's good that you have made that decision.

It would seem obvious to many before you even started the bans that bans should be reserved for people creating the items or selling for USD. People that simply purchased the items should just have the items deleted from their inventory due to things I mentioned before.

The fact that Trendy decided to come out swinging and THEN decide to tone it down is just another example of figuring something out after the fact that could have been deduced beforehand if the proper attention and effort were put into it.

This is just another example of Trendy being oblivious to reality. You guys are great at apologizing and adjusting once the community complains. Someone there needs to step up and point out these issues before it happens. Either you don't have that employee.. or, more likely, you do and you just aren't listening to them. One or two instances of these things happens all the time to every company in every industry. This is more like a pattern though.. one that doesn't seem to be changing anytime soon.


Conventional wisdom would dictate that hackers would feign ignorance and claim to have bought the items from shops, which is why we were initially tougher on those circumstances. I agree with your points, but it's better than the alternative: a company that doesn't react to community complaints. For some of us (mostly me), this is still a learning process. As we move forward as a young company, we'll continue to use these experiences to help get things as close to "right the first time" as possible. I'm sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused.

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Conventional wisdom would dictate that hackers would feign ignorance and claim to have bought the items from shops, which is why we were initially tougher on those circumstances. I agree with your points, but it's better than the alternative: a company that doesn't react to community complaints. For some of us (mostly me), this is still a learning process. As we move forward as a young company, we'll continue to use these experiences to help get things as close to "right the first time" as possible. I'm sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused.


It's all good Hitmonchan. I still love Trendy and DD. I just love them enough to be critical sometimes. I try not to be over the top. You are right.. at least you are listening to your community and adjusting... something many companies don't do unfortunately.

I just think that if there were 4-5 employees sitting around a table, and the topic of banning people with hacked items came up... one person in the room would have said.. "Is it fair to ban people considering the lack of information of what is and isn't a hacked item? Is it fair for us to expect all of our players to know the difference?" If that point was brought up, then it was ignored. If it wasn't, I hope you find that person soon and hire them.

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further suggestions

I guess at this stage we can say thanks, it appears our pleas have been heard. I think the previous strategy was very unfair and unjust and while it is still the unknown moving foward its much better than the old strategy.

a suggestion to mabe try to curb the paypal shops, the name of the game host should be included on the shop screens. This way making them more identifiable.

As for the item hacks i dont know the way to handle this but i would look to trendy to implement something new if what is currently available to you isnt there. So for example items have an audit trail. So for example there would be a table of valid ways the item existed. ie 1- mob drop 2- chest 3-player shop 4 item shop

none of them should exist with a player shop tag as they would have previously been from a mob and the others well.. surely cant be cheated but whether this be a good sugegstion or bad. maybe it helps throw ideas around

oh and i also love the game, just passionate about keeping it clean and fair. for customers and gamers and with Trendy staying in a positive light mean possible future releases of content/other games.

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About damn time!

Everyone and their ****** have been hacking, thank god they finally banned people like me. Maybe now the
game can be fun again.

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Everyone and their ****** have been hacking, thank god they finally banned people like me. Maybe now the
game can be fun again.


They bleep " m0ther"???

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still this policy is flawed due to the fact hackers only have to hack items with legit stats. The best and only effective way to prevent hacking is a group of people inside the company that have a system to PROVE 100% that an item is hacked and a tracking system of how that item was created so you can find the person/account that hacked it in the first place. Users with hacked item have them removed people who are proven hackers are banned and NEVER EVER UNBANED.

A game i played had this system but failed due to having player gms (worst idea ever)

I understand as a company because my studies of system analysis and programming the various costs to implement a system like this. Post release makes this even worse.

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I understand as a company because my studies of system analysis and programming the various costs to implement a system like this. Post release makes this even worse.
In terms of cost if the game was designed to have complete item security to begin with it would have been about $5000 in labour, however implementing it now would be about $15000.
Bad planning - It always costs businesses big money... looking back in my life I've keep my costs from getting out of hand dramatically because of it, I've had overruns, but nothing brutal.
In a piece of sample code for a game I'm working on random item generation is based on fractal seeds generated by a master server to ensure clients can't fabricate their own by manipulating their random number generation.

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I may be wrong, but to all those who thinks that item tracking will solve hacker issue, i doubt it's a solution. Details like item drop location, host when dropped, map dropped are all just additional bytes stored in the item. Just like any other values, as long as a hacker can change information 1 in field, it won't be tough to manipulate the others. They can also easily hack an item based upon same stats as a legit item, albeit changing some minor details (say from wave 10 to wave 30) and increase it's stats drastically. Sometimes it's not just about cost, but also if a rightful suggestion is available. If it's really that simple, Trendy would have done it even without suggestions from you people.

Till today, the only reasonable suggestion given was to make item spawning only on the server side and with added security functions. However, we know that it's near impossible to do it post release as the cost will be high and it is hard to imagine the impact that will be caused to the community.

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I don't think you understand the concept of centrally issued tokens.
The client does not generate the item, it simply requests a seed for the item's generation, the client then generates the item from the seed and returns a hash to ensure the item was properly generated.
There's no way to cheat around this, if you create an item that does not match the items base hash code the item is deleted.
This restricts items to be only within the realm of possibility, although this method would only work for TrendyNet, Open which has locally stored requires a more complex method.

As an inexperienced programmer with no formal education in programming; even I know how to implement this... although I do know circuit design so that's a cheated point. lol
It is simple, but Trendy wasn't thinking of security when they made the game, at least in this aspect.

Cost doesn't seem to be an issue, the sales figures, especially DLC sales mean they have some money in the bank to solve this prevalent issue... although if they're owned by investors most of those profits are already gone and publisher cuts.

Although, an even bigger worry is how extremely thin Trendy has spread themselves across platforms... at EA, a massive multinational corporation which has whole teams for ports, more than 3 platforms for a title is considered suicidal and 1-2 optimal, only the suits ever make that happen.

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I have a legit question about using questionable items. Lets just say you have 2billion mana and have never used hacks for argument purposes. You enter a shop and someone is selling items that have moderately high stats for high prices but you've seen higher. The item does have some negatives but the stats are pretty nice. Example: Pristine Mythical Boots with -78 hero run, -104 hero health, -97 skill 1, +88 skill 2, +185 tower damage, +115 tower health, +140 tower speed, +142 tower range with 194 upgrades. This to some people would seem to be a hacked item but I for one have seen such items as this drop before, but how am I to know if this person hacked it or not?

Here is the list of things to look out for:

-Unique name but not max leveled
-Item has very high stats in all areas and no negatives
-All stats are the same (some items.can spawn like this but its very rare and usually the stats are lower)
-Impossibly high damage, high damage on low level item
-Unusually large
-Player is selling for USD or Paypal
-Random player joins your tavern and drops you free items

1: Item is 1/194 upgrades and has a regular name
2: Item has pretty good stats(Not the highest I've seen), and there are plenty of negatives.
3: Stats are not all the same
4: The item is a piece of armor
5: Regular size
6: Playing is selling for 1bil mana
7: No random players here

According to the information given to us, the item must be legit. If we want to take it further, we can go to the forums and ask if it's hacked. Majority of the players say it isn't. Now if I were to use this item and it INDEED is hacked; what security do I have against getting banned? The way everything on here sounds is that we're allowed to be good and we have to get better gear and upgrade to beat the higher levels, but not too high, because you'll get banned if you're too good. Again, what security do we have against wearing said hacked item without knowing it?

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@ hardware cost are not just monny there are others.

@ dyles those stats can not be accessed they are server side/hosted by the company the only way to access them would to be to hack trendy and im sure if the system was in place there would be alot less hacking due to the fact of irl action. In the system i said only the staff members had access to that info. In my view this is the fairest way to go in an rng system.

I even though of an auto program that stores our data on a database within trendy and has limits set into to scan for any "hacked items"

The main issue is players can not know the limits of items (bar those that use the dev kit) BUT even them can be baised due to the fact rng is rng. Non negative stat items are possible i had hundreds and have npced them due to finding better stats on other items. It also due to the fact how many players playing how many items drop / day to the uninformed an extreamly rare item say
.000234% a player can still get that
hell the game that had the system that i stated had .0000000008% items and people had those items with a hell of lot less player base than dd

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I don't think you understand the concept of centrally issued tokens.
The client does not generate the item, it simply requests a seed for the item's generation, the client then generates the item from the seed and returns a hash to ensure the item was properly generated.
There's no way to cheat around this, if you create an item that does not match the items base hash code the item is deleted.
This restricts items to be only within the realm of possibility, although this method would only work for TrendyNet, Open which has locally stored requires a more complex method.

As an inexperienced programmer with no formal education in programming; even I know how to implement this... although I do know circuit design so that's a cheated point. lol
It is simple, but Trendy wasn't thinking of security when they made the game, at least in this aspect.

Cost doesn't seem to be an issue, the sales figures, especially DLC sales mean they have some money in the bank to solve this prevalent issue... although if they're owned by investors most of those profits are already gone and publisher cuts.

Although, an even bigger worry is how extremely thin Trendy has spread themselves across platforms... at EA, a massive multinational corporation which has whole teams for ports, more than 3 platforms for a title is considered suicidal and 1-2 optimal, only the suits ever make that happen.


You're assuming that neither the client nor the packets that it sends can be modified.

There is no fix-all solution. You can sure as hell do the best you can though.

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@ hardware cost are not just monny there are others.

@ dyles those stats can not be accessed they are server side/hosted by the company the only way to access them would to be to hack trendy and im sure if the system was in place there would be alot less hacking due to the fact of irl action. In the system i said only the staff members had access to that info. In my view this is the fairest way to go in an rng system.

I even though of an auto program that stores our data on a database within trendy and has limits set into to scan for any "hacked items"

The main issue is players can not know the limits of items (bar those that use the dev kit) BUT even them can be baised due to the fact rng is rng. Non negative stat items are possible i had hundreds and have npced them due to finding better stats on other items. It also due to the fact how many players playing how many items drop / day to the uninformed an extreamly rare item say
.000234% a player can still get that
hell the game that had the system that i stated had .0000000008% items and people had those items with a hell of lot less player base than dd


That's why I said that the only solution is to host everything (from item spawns/etc) to server side.
Yes, your character do store on the server (along with the items), but currently, item spawns is on client side (as what I've read). That's the reason why it can be easily hacked. Once hacked, dropping the item or trading it will send packets to the server to update the server information. In short, the server only receives and store the data, they don't control it. Hence a hacker don't need to access the server stats. They only need to hack their item, and it updates to the server.

From my understanding that's how it work and I'm pretty sure about it. Prove me wrong if you can since you seems to have more technical knowledge than me.

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In terms of cost if the game was designed to have complete item security to begin with it would have been about $5000 in labour, however implementing it now would be about $15000.


Their first mistake was designing the game for closed platforms like the PS3 & Xbox 360, porting it to the PC & Mac because of the benefits open platforms bring them then crossing their fingers & hoping no one would figure out how trivial it is to edit item stats & player mana on these open platforms.
Their second mistake was trying to rely on uninformed players to police their massively flawed system.

They're happy to reap the rewards of the open PC & Mac platforms but they don't want the additional expense to develop effective solutions for these platforms. The saying "having your cake and eating it" comes to mind.

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need to use an encoding (as used gearbox).Players do not remains.Manual cheater detection system - last century.

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  • 2 weeks later...
okay trendy ! i have not used any hacks ! but yes how do i know if my items are hacked from other afk shops ? um no i don't plz , un ban me just remove the items that are hacked that I did'n't know that were ?

im permanently banned for using hacked items i did'nt no that were hacked from afk shops

im very sorry that i had used unknown hacked items. :(

steam name jake9801

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okay trendy ! i have not used any hacks ! but yes how do i know if my items are hacked from other afk shops ? um no i don't plz , un ban me just remove the items that are hacked that I did'n't know that were ?

im permanently banned for using hacked items i did'nt no that were hacked from afk shops

im very sorry that i had used unknown hacked items. :(

steam name jake9801


This is what worries me the most.
I can understand the obvious hacks,but what about the ones that are slightly done.
How can we tell if there hacked or not.

Tbh trendy should just del them,and not ban us for a flaw in the game they cannot control.
I don't even know what stats is what when playing this game,all i know is if a weapons/armor has maxed out in every stats then for sure thats prob hacked. and i would stay clear.
But still there should be a better way for trendy to fix this than banning INNOCENT players that uses the in game store.

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This is what worries me the most.
I can understand the obvious hacks,but what about the ones that are slightly done.
How can we tell if there hacked or not.

Tbh trendy should just del them,and not ban us for a flaw in the game they cannot control.
I don't even know what stats is what when playing this game,all i know is if a weapons/armor has maxed out in every stats then for sure thats prob hacked. and i would stay clear.
But still there should be a better way for trendy to fix this than banning INNOCENT players that uses the in game store.


Trendy is not banning INNOCENTS (i like to feel as victim too ;)).

I can spot a hacked item in a mile away, they are very obvius once you know how this game works. If trendy require a screenshot is to verify the item, not to say "hey, nice JPG, anyway lets ban this guy without proof"

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Trendy is not banning INNOCENTS (i like to feel as victim too ;)).

I can spot a hacked item in a mile away, they are very obvius once you know how this game works. If trendy require a screenshot is to verify the item, not to say "hey, nice JPG, anyway lets ban this guy without proof"


Maybe you can spot a hacked item from a mile away but what about new players like me.
I know if the item has 999999 in it then yes its hacked.
but what about the items that have been slightly modified to the items advantaged?

Also i don't feel like a victim,more like don't want to be banned for an item that i bought from the online shop for mana,that could cause me to get a ban on the game,thats not fair for us new players,we don't know what the max stats suppose to be.
Of course the 999999 ones are obvious though.
trendy should just del the item imo unless it has stats with 999999 of course,then banned is fair game.

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