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Here's why the 30% won't make your Hybrid useful.


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I like how for some reason running Elemental weapon + Tower stats isn't hybrid. Wtf? Who decided that? Just 'cause it's not evenly distributed doesn't mean it's not hybrid.

I will agree with you that you are more-or-less right and your math, crude and completely made up though it may be, gets the point across assuming that your hybrid people build completely wrong and are idiots.

P.S. Since when don't hybrids build tower hp????


By definition, a Hybrid is splitting stats. I think I mentioned that. Being completely specced out for Tower and simply switching to an elemental weapon doesn't make you a Hybrid.

Maybe I'm using idiots for Tower Specs and DPS Specs? I mean, how wrong can you build a Hybrid? Even the best ones still won't compete, I guarantee it.

P.S. I said that if they did, they would lose out somewhere else resulting in a different effect. Thanks for reading!

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Like I said, I can only provide the information, if you choose to ignore it, then it's YOUR loss. I'm not effected either way. Good luck.


You mean you're not affected by it. I was trying to effectively effect change, but my actions really had no affect on your opinion, especially with your elite affectation. So I'm not trying to say you're illiterate, all I can do is provide the information. If you choose to ignore it, then it's YOUR loss.

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yeah the thing is that 30% is crazy when compared to the diminishing returns of stat points in towers. An example

the difference between having 220 tower attack and 400 tower attack is roughly 30% (maybe 35%)

The pure tower char had to spend 180 points for that

Consider the hybrid having 220 tower attack but he spent that extra 180 on hero attack. Now the hybrid is doing the same tower dps compared to a pure tower build. Hybrid will also manage to get up to 50% physical dps of a pure dps character due to hero attack having an almost linear return.

Hybrid will however have the advantage of rebuilding any lost towers during combat phase or will be able to continue building defenses during combat when the initial build phase of the map isn't sufficient to build everything(which most of the time)

One of the aspects i'm expecting from nightmare mode is very short or non-existent build phases where hybrids will be godlike. Game always tried to steer us to make hybrids but we went around it, trendy is trying to correct us with a little buff here and a nerf there imo.

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By definition, a Hybrid is splitting stats. I think I mentioned that. Being completely specced out for Tower and simply switching to an elemental weapon doesn't make you a Hybrid.

Maybe I'm using idiots for Tower Specs and DPS Specs? I mean, how wrong can you build a Hybrid? Even the best ones still won't compete, I guarantee it.

P.S. I said that if they did, they would lose out somewhere else resulting in a different effect. Thanks for reading!


A hybrid splits stats. Nowhere is it written that a hybrid must split stats evenly. Elemental damage weapon, often dps pet, and tower stats otherwise isn't hybrid? If so, then you and your restrictions are limited to a very narrow band of players who are just building inefficiently. Having to qualify your definitions so heavily as to exclude the vast majority of effective players who have a hybrid effect seems very, very, very shortsighted. I mean, just look at squires.

And you can build a hybrid very wrong. By not including elemental damage.

P.S. Yes, and many hybrids I know make that trade-off for health. Thus the "wtf, since when isn't that a priority at all" from me. What hybrids are you referring to that put very few points in tower health? Maybe you mean they don't have THP 100% maxed pre-gear and are only between 200 and 300 tower health once gear is included? Just one among the many unexplained assumptions regarding terminology and what's typical. Assumptions have a tendency of completely ruining any thing mathy/sciency.

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You mean you're not affected by it. I was trying to effectively effect change, but my actions really had no affect on your opinion, especially with your elite affectation. So I'm not trying to say you're illiterate, all I can do is provide the information. If you choose to ignore it, then it's YOUR loss.


Thanks for the lesson, Teacher! Now off of my grammar on onto the subject matter at hand [in this thread].


yeah the thing is that 30% is crazy when compared to the diminishing returns of stat points in towers. An example

the difference between having 220 tower attack and 400 tower attack is roughly 30% (maybe 35%)

The pure tower char had to spend 180 points for that

Consider the hybrid having 220 tower attack but he spent that extra 180 on hero attack. Now the hybrid is doing the same tower dps compared to a pure tower build. Hybrid will also manage to get up to 50% physical dps of a pure dps character due to hero attack having an almost linear return.

Hybrid will however have the advantage of rebuilding any lost towers during combat phase or will be able to continue building defenses during combat when the initial build phase of the map isn't sufficient to build everything(which most of the time)

One of the aspects i'm expecting from nightmare mode is very short or non-existent build phases where hybrids will be godlike. Game always tried to steer us to make hybrids but we went around it, trendy is trying to correct us with a little buff here and a nerf there imo.


I've already addressed the issues of rebuilding towers multiple times.

I've also stated previously that as long as the first two or three waves remain trivial, then an Animus can be used to provide all the DPS needs of the Pure Tower character and they can simply switch to a pure Tower Pet when finished. As long as this is true, the need for a Hybrid will be non-existent.


A hybrid splits stats. Nowhere is it written that a hybrid must split stats evenly. Elemental damage weapon, often dps pet, and tower stats otherwise isn't hybrid? If so, then you and your restrictions are limited to a very narrow band of players who are just building inefficiently. Having to qualify your definitions so heavily as to exclude the vast majority of effective players who have a hybrid effect seems very, very, very shortsighted. I mean, just look at squires.

And you can build a hybrid very wrong. By not including elemental damage.

P.S. Yes, and many hybrids I know make that trade-off for health. Thus the "wtf, since when isn't that a priority at all" from me. What hybrids are you referring to that put very few points in tower health? Maybe you mean they don't have THP 100% maxed pre-gear and are only between 200 and 300 tower health once gear is included? Just one among the many unexplained assumptions regarding terminology and what's typical. Assumptions have a tendency of completely ruining any thing mathy/sciency.


So, if I take a chef and give him a rifle and a hand grenade, does he suddenly become a soldier? No, hes a chef with a rifle and a hand grenade. If you take a Tower char give them an Elemental Weapon/DPS pet, they are still a Tower Char, they just have an Elemental Weapon and a DPS Pet. It's about stat allocation.

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I think a lot of people hate on hybrids for no good reason. Hybrids can do 70% as much weapon damage as the dps specialists and when your tower falls you don't just lose the game because nobody can patch the hole. I've been booted more times than I can count for entering games with my hybrid characters, but when the defense fails its almost never my fault. I will keep fighting back the enemies and placing new defenses.

I get people hating on me as if I am the reason for them failing when the reason they failed is because they can't maintain and protect their own lane. Either their dps is inferior so they can't mow things down fast enough, their defense/hps not high enough to survive ninja attacks and when they die the defense falls, they don't repair structures in between mowing stuff down to maintain them, or they just pay no attention to which enemies are around and make sure the dangerous ones like necromancers are not allowed to loiter near defenses.

If you are a dps character, YOU are the weapon. You shouldn't have to depend on someone elses towers at all to thrash the enemy. They are mainly needed only to slow the enemy down and make sure nothing slips by. If their tower only has 70% as many hps or 50% as much damage it should still be plenty for you because you are the instrument of destruction. Being a dps character doesn't mean you are supposed to stand behind the towers and go afk. Get out there and do your job and you will not fail.

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Thanks for the lesson, Teacher! Now off of my grammar on onto the subject matter at hand [in this thread].So, if I take a chef and give him a rifle and a hand grenade, does he suddenly become a soldier? No, hes a chef with a rifle and a hand grenade. If you take a DPS char give them an Elemental Weapon/DPS pet, they are still a Tower Char, they just have an Elemental Weapon and a DPS Pet. It's about stat allocation.


Flawed logic is flawed. Of course he ain't a soldier. But if he has a rifle and a hand grenade instead of a slice of lemon and some garlic, he's also sure as hell not a chef. I think you could say he's a hybrid between the two.

He's also not at all relevant to this particular situation.

And why is it about stat allocation, not effect? If my "not-hybrid" can do 99+% the hero damage of a DPS equivalent and 95% of the tower damage, uhhhhh...clearly no hybridization at work people, move along! Pure tower!

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It's not flawed logic. The Chef has none of the training or ATTRIBUTES of being an effective Soldier, he merely has the weapons. It's a metaphor and he is relevant to the particular situation.

It has to do with Stat allocation because that is what makes your characters effective at the things they do. Lets see your "Hybrid" Tower/Ele Weapon character run out and try to DPS anything without the safety of their Towers. The first DEW that sees you is going to wreck your existence. Dead characters don't DPS.

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It's not flawed logic. The Chef has none of the training or ATTRIBUTES of being an effective Soldier, he merely has the weapons. It's a metaphor and he is relevant to the particular situation.


I think an attribute of being an effective soldier is to have an awesome gun. After all, that is their rifle. There are many like it, but that one is theirs. Without their rifle, they are nothing. Without them, their rifle is nothing.

Seems like the two are kinda linked.

It has to do with Stat allocation because that is what makes your characters effective at the things they do. Lets see your "Hybrid" Tower/Ele Weapon character run out and try to DPS anything without the safety of their Towers. The first DEW that sees you is going to wreck your existence. Dead characters don't DPS.


Evidently, stat allocation ISN'T what makes characters effective what they do. Unless you consider investing points in a weapon's elemental damage stat allocation--which I could actually see, since you spend points on it that you otherwise would have spent on stats.

And given that what you just described is exactly what Hybrid Tower/Elemental characters do and are extremely effective at doing, I'm going to say huh? There's a reason that Tower/Elemental Squires and Tower/Elemental Apprentices are so effective. Not monks so much, mostly 'cause monks don't know what the hell they're doing weapon-wise.

Or did you miss out on every discussion ever regarding Tower/Elemental Squires?

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Always assumed a hybrid would put points in damage rather than get an elemental weapon. Otherwise you would just be tower specced :\

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Terror, Proud founder of HHH: Hybrid Haters Headquarters

Reminds me of some real-world organization.

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Always assumed a hybrid would put points in damage rather than get an elemental weapon. Otherwise you would just be tower specced :\


Any set of definitions where a tower-spec individual does 150k+ dps without including towers at all (that was before superloot, probably way more now) is severely flawed.

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Thanks for the lesson, Teacher! Now off of my grammar on onto the subject matter at hand [in this thread].


No probsies dood. It's not actually about your grammar, its usage, or even your math or the fact that you didn't factor many things into said math. The problem is that you've decided that any other character than your own is worthless and that you seem to want to shame other people by using theoretical math (that's different than applied mathematics btwsies) to try and hamfist your point home.

Here you've got a thread brimming with reasons why hybrid characters are useful. Instead of saying, "Ah, that makes sense now. I wasn't factoring in Elemental damage and the difference between pure character stats, their diminishing value, and the nature of elemental weapons and their synergy with a tower spec'ed character. I still believe that a pure min/maxxed character gives an edge, perhaps not as much as I thought before though."

You decided to continue your elitist band wagon. Which leaves me with the more enjoyable response of poking at you in turn. Auto-kicking because of differing playstyle tells me you should really just play solo, where your logic can always be 100% correct. Maybe you could even disconnect your computer from the internet in general.

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Here you've got a thread brimming with reasons why hybrid characters are useful. Instead of saying, "Ah, that makes sense now. I wasn't factoring in Elemental damage and the difference between pure character stats, their diminishing value, and the nature of elemental weapons and their synergy with a tower spec'ed character.


Nonono, clearly you have it wrong. Elemental weapon characters are still 100% tower-spec, even though they sacrifice up to 59 stat points towards tower stats in order to do damage. That Elemental weapon characters, which are still pure tower spec regardless of how they worsen towers (in a worth-it trade) in order to do insane left-click damage, are so effective just goes to show how effective pure tower builds are compared to hybrids. DUH!

After all, your character's effect, damage distribution, and apparently gear don't matter at all when factoring in what spec they are. All that matters = level up points.

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To Everyone who says the OP is wrong,
Math cannot be argued. It is a simple statement of fact. OP is correct in his math. OP is not elitist, OP is using math to prove that even with a 30% increase, you need to be near full tower spec for your towers to be as effective as a complete full tower spec. And if you combine a full tower spec with a full DPS spec hero you will be more effective against current challenge ratings.

However.

To the OP,
You said that the developers are saying that Nightmare Difficulty and future levels will be more challenging. We don't even know what that means. It may require some different thinking and specs than pure defense and pure DPS mixes. What if prep times are 15 seconds between waves and you have to do DPS and build at the same time in early waves? It may not just be harder hitting mobs with more HP. There's lots of ways to make things harder than just more mob numbers, more mob hp and more mob damage. So before you go out saying that hybrid is useless you may want to find out what the new difficulty really is instead of making a blanket statement and assumption based on previous difficulty ratings. In the end you may still be right. But you may possibly be wrong.

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To Everyone who says the OP is wrong,
Math cannot be argued. It is a simple statement of fact. OP is correct in his math.

To the OP,
You said that the developers are saying that Nightmare Difficulty and future levels will be more challenging. We don't even know what that means. It may require some different thinking and specs than pure defense and pure DPS mixes. What if prep times are 5 seconds between waves and you have to do DPS and build at the same time in early waves? It may not just be harder hitting mobs with more HP. There's lots of ways to make things harder than just more hp and more damage. Just saying.

To everyone who doesn't like the OP,
Don't play with the OP.

We've gone past arguing math and started arguing semantics.

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To Everyone who says the OP is wrong,
Math cannot be argued. It is a simple statement of fact. OP is correct in his math.


...either you don't know very much about math and statistics or you're doing yourself a major disservice. Included in the field is how you define your terms. And the parameters you set.

P.S. "Semantics", or defining your terminology, is an extremely important part of every single mathematical, statistical, or scientific analysis. Extremely important. There's a reason it's an easy-to-find, key part of every single paper you'll read ever.

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...either you don't know very much about math and statistics or you're doing yourself a major disservice. Included in the field is how you define your terms. And the parameters you set.


You're right. I am absolutely wrong and I apologize. Additional parameters are definitely required to determine efficiency.

I should have said that using correct math calculations cannot be refuted and the math in the OP is correct.

My second paragraph states that his assumption on efficiency may be wrong so straight up math may not apply.

If the maximum damage possible is 100 and your damage is 60, that makes your efficiency 60% since you are only doing 60% of what is 100% possible. If you increase that damage by 30% you are doing 78 damage which is 78% of what is 100% possible making it 78% efficient. The OP was correct in this math with the assumption that a tower spec is 100% efficient in doing damage to mobs and that a DPS spec is 100% efficient in doing damage to mobs.

What I was trying to point out is that efficiency should not be defined by a minimum of a single extreme. There are many factors in this game that define efficiency. Doing damage is just one of them.

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.....There is so much /wrong/ in this thread.

Towers doing 30% more is going to more then make up any amount of dps you can or cannot do by going pure anything. heck, for Monk Range is more powerful then elemental even before hero attack, so hybrid makes sence... Notto mention hero attack e.t.c.

30%? It's massive. Thats 100's of points on the higher end. 100s of points that will let you be as effective as a pure tower spec (That switches) AND do DPS where it counts. (Usualy, single target vs ogres). Hyid builders are whats going to make sence unless pure tower builders can take towers all the way up (On Nightmare) to the point they can kill everything with ease. In which case bye bye dps builds :)

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@Shiny:
You are being extremely nit-picky if you think sacrificing 59 points on a char build that has over 600 available points for a weapon that can be switched mid round to make them full tower spec again is "Hybridizing". Where is the line drawn? If I put half the points into wep damage and the other half into tower damage on the weapon, are they still hybrid? How about 60/40? 20/80? Where's the line?

It's about stat allocation on the Hero because that is the unchangeable part of the character and often reveals the intention of the character.

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.....There is so much /wrong/ in this thread.

Towers doing 30% more is going to more then make up any amount of dps you can or cannot do by going pure anything. heck, for Monk Range is more powerful then elemental even before hero attack, so hybrid makes sence... Notto mention hero attack e.t.c.

30%? It's massive. Thats 100's of points on the higher end. 100s of points that will let you be as effective as a pure tower spec (That switches) AND do DPS where it counts. (Usualy, single target vs ogres). Hyid builders are whats going to make sence unless pure tower builders can take towers all the way up (On Nightmare) to the point they can kill everything with ease. In which case bye bye dps builds :)


Yea, the Hybrid becomes just about as effective as a pure Tower build (under perfect conditions and assuming the buff affects all towers [which it wont]) while still being gimped 20% in DPS. Nice trade.

The fact that you even think DPS is going anywhere discredits a large portion of what you say.

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@Shiny:
You are being extremely nit-picky if you think sacrificing 59 points on a char build that has over 600 available points for a weapon that can be switched mid round to make them full tower spec again is "Hybridizing". Where is the line drawn? If I put half the points into wep damage and the other half into tower damage on the weapon, are they still hybrid? How about 60/40? 20/80? Where's the line?

It's about stat allocation on the Hero because that is the unchangeable part of the character and often reveals the intention of the character.

Are we in an imaginary land where everyone has every kind of gear for every single situation maxed out, or are we in the real world where people have 1 weapon and possibly a couple armour sets maxed out at any given time?

I don't know about everyone else but I only have about 2 weapons maxed out because those define how I intend to play. One being pure damage the other being a silly extreme knockback weapon.

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It's not unrealistic to have two weapons for Tower characters. And just because it's "how you play/intend to play" doesn't make it any more valid.

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@Shiny:
You are being extremely nit-picky if you think sacrificing 59 points on a char build that has over 600 available points for a weapon that can be switched mid round to make them full tower spec again is "Hybridizing".


So to clarify, you are of the opinion that having significant resources devoted to both Tower and Hero attack efficacy means that you, as a character, are tower-spec? Or are you saying that a 59-upgrade weapon is not a significant resource?

And to further clarify, a character that deals as much left-click damage as a fully-specced DPS build character can be considered pure tower build?

Where is the line drawn? If I put half the points into wep damage and the other half into tower damage on the weapon, are they still hybrid? How about 60/40? 20/80? Where's the line?


Unless I'm mistaken, hybrid means a mix of two, typically creating a result that is neither purely one nor the other. It's debatable whether a line needs to be drawn; no matter where you draw the line, though, a character with good towers capable of dealing extreme DPS is pretty easily going to fall into the hybrid category. No matter how you draw it. If they have a DPS pet (as included in my earlier "pure tower example"), that just solidifies their place. Given this discussion, I'm now actually really tempted to make the argument that Tower-Armor, Tower-Stat, Elemental Weapon characters are closer to pure DPS with few tower elements.

It's about stat allocation on the Hero because that is the unchangeable part of the character and often reveals the intention of the character.


Funny fact. You can change your character stats much more easily than you can change your gear stats. In fact, character stats are significantly less permanent. And also responsible for a relatively small percentage of your character's total stats.

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It's not unrealistic to have two weapons for Tower characters. And just because it's "how you play/intend to play" doesn't make it any more valid.


"Valid" is "sufficient to be victorious." Min/maxing currently is entirely and completely purposeless in this game.

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