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Constant indecision, non-retroactive nerfs, and the future of dungeon defenders.


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So youre proving my point... LOL

I will not whine if 1 of the 4 classes gets BALANCED, because I dont RELY on 1 single class to win an insane map for me.

I was one of the people asking for elem damage to be nerfed, because it was OP, I was also one of the people suggesting PS get nerfed because it was ridiculous a huntress could stand in the middle of the map with 1420 mana and clear all the lanes with no help. I was one of the people who suggested enrage be nerfed. I was one of the people who suggested auras needed more lifespan/less maintenance. I was one of the individuals who said the fire rate on APP towers needed to be buffed to compete with squires.

Im a fan of balance and no class should be able to down a boss in 5 secs or an ogre in 3 secs. No class should be able to solo insane. Now why are you still here, crying that you quit?

PS. Ive been playing Skyrim for 50+ hours so far, and it has definitely cut into my Dun. Def. playtime. Youre ignorant if you think Dun. Def drop in active playerbase is because mass amounts quit. Once im done with murdering everyone in Skyrim, I will surely be back on Dun Def. because it has good replay value and its addictive. Cant wait for the next DLC either.

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Down from 20k less than 2 weeks ago, just FYI


And still doing better than a lot of full price titles. Like I said before:

Many developers would kill to have a "dying" community like this game does. Most people are content with the game. The complainers are a small, somewhat vocal minority, that's all.
The complaints aren't even new, they read as if they were copypasted from the Paladin forums from World of Warcraft back in 2005. :P

[quote]
Im a fan of balance and no class should be able to down a boss in 5 secs or an ogre in 3 secs. No class should be able to solo insane. [/quote]

Exactly. The nerfs were good, and more should follow.

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So youre proving my point... LOL

I will not whine if 1 of the 4 classes gets BALANCED, because I dont RELY on 1 single class to win an insane map for me.

I was one of the people asking for elem damage to be nerfed, because it was OP, I was also one of the people suggesting PS get nerfed because it was ridiculous a huntress could stand in the middle of the map with 1420 mana and clear all the lanes with no help. I was one of the people who suggested enrage be nerfed. I was one of the people who suggested auras needed more lifespan/less maintenance. I was one of the individuals who said the fire rate on APP towers needed to be buffed to compete with squires.

Im a fan of balance and no class should be able to down a boss in 5 secs or an ogre in 3 secs. No class should be able to solo insane. Now why are you still here, crying that you quit?

PS. Ive been playing Skyrim for 50+ hours so far, and it has definitely cut into my Dun. Def. playtime. Youre ignorant if you think Dun. Def drop in active playerbase is because mass amounts quit. Once im done with murdering everyone in Skyrim, I will surely be back on Dun Def. because it has good replay value and its addictive. Cant wait for the next DLC either.


If you read my post, I said I agreed with those changes. I said my issue was the mistake of not informing people of the changes, not to mention not nerfing weapons that were already made (therefore leaving superpowered version of the new behind, rendering ones upgraded post patch useless, or worth much less)


I'm here saying that this game was grand, but these little mistakes, like building a patch around a single forum thread they apparently picked up(this is an exaggeration, but still) is what's messing things up. Mistakes like the DDDK being released as a DLC happen every single patch thus far.

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I wish people would realize that a majority of people could not be bothered to complain to the authorities which in this case is the developers. A lot of people in this world will dislike certain policies but will still accept them and normalize their life around it. Please stop using the # of people playing in game compared to the # of people on the forums because it doesn't prove anything except that most people can accept changes for the worse. Doesn't mean that whatever happened/changed isn't bad, it jsut means that they are capable of accepting it without complaining.

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I wish people would realize that a majority of people could not be bothered to complain to the authorities which in this case is the developers. A lot of people in this world will dislike certain policies but will still accept them and normalize their life around it. Please stop using the # of people playing in game compared to the # of people on the forums because it doesn't prove anything except that most people can accept changes for the worse. Doesn't mean that whatever happened/changed isn't bad, it jsut means that they are capable of accepting it without complaining.


I'm not sure how this pertains to the bigger issue here, the problems which people are either conforming to, or complaining about.

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I think it is ridiculous not to nerf retroactively on any game that offers any level of competitive play/challanges. I could care less about local saves - but all items on all characters in ranked play should obviously be normalized and no stat caps should be allowed to depend on spawn date of said equipment.

Doing non-retroactive nerfs/buffs kills competitive play.

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About aa much as you posted... a fact ;)

Sure the numbers are down but that means little over the length of the game. Elders scroll just released, dundef was doing like 40k then... when people beat elders, some will come back, some will move on. Over all the games doing quite good... look at other games released in the same tine frame and compare ;)


I thought the higher number was 20k, if it's 40k then the bleed is worse than I feared. Games do not drop the user base off that dramatically within 1 month of release. The devs clearly have issues beyond other titles coming it if your number is correct.

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Before spewing off stats you should probably look at the whole picture .. and this is aimed at both sides. Peak users dropped drastically before Skyrim or MDW3 period. In fact if you were playing attention, every patch brought a noticeable drop in players. Regardless on how difficult the game is, every sweeping change patch ended up dropping large %'s of players.

To be fair, however, every game will experience a drop in players early on. Players who realize the game isnt for them, and those who find it unsatisfying. Its both folly to assume the patches havent caused the loss of players, and equally folly to assume the game is dead.

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If people want a challenge all they have to do is run Deeper Well on Insane in their underpants.

I don't understand when a complaint goes like this:

* I cant run Glitter Insane AFK, so I need better gear.
* I grind and re-grind other maps to get money, and better drops then what I have.
* I now spend 10 million to get decent stats on said gear to 50/50 Glitter on insane.
* I now have millions and millions and Godly base gear.
* I spend millions, and upgrade all the gear to farm Glitter even faster.
* I can now AFK Glitter.

* They nerfed my gun, I cant just AFK anymore.

This in a period of what, 2 weeks?

What were you doing such hard work for? Bragging rights? Who actually will care a year from now?

If you archive something, personal satisfaction should be enough, and any patch that makes something harder should be treated as a new challenge. I just wish the difficulty curve was more evenly distributed with a slider or something other then:

Easy: Let my pet kill all the waves.
Medium: Might actually have to drop a tower.
Hard: Some shooting is needed in conjunction with the odd tower.
Insane: Need to focus fire an ogre with a VW for over 40 seconds.

Something "difficult" in my book is something that requires more planning, not a bigger gun. For a 300K Ogre, there's not enough flat space on an entire map full of Ethereal traps to kill stuff like that.

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OP, I know exactly what you mean and am in the exact same boat. This game had a lot of promise and ended up being entertaining, yet I thought it had the potential for so much more. I think fondly of Trendy and wish them all the luck in the world as they grow as a company and continue to put out interesting products.

However, for me personally, a lot of the joy is just gone from this game. Just can't look forward to it like I used to with the way things are. Probably going to take a hiatus of a few weeks, maybe more, to see if the game stabilizes, or just scale down to a few minutes with my roommate every week or so (though he's not exactly happy either, so who knows). 'cause the way things are now, it's way too roller-coastery to be an active follower, an active participant. And if I try, it's going to end with all kinds of motion sickness and vomit everywhere. Can say the same of my friends. Most of us were just a few pets off of Legendary Defender, but it's Gone Daddy Gone, the love is gone away.

P.S. Know this is going to be skimmed and subsequently misconstrued as a "waaaaaaaaah imma quit" post. Far from it. I really love this game, in fact. More like a: "Darling, I think we need to see other people for a while, let's get back together in a few months to see if you're hot again" affair.

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I left a couple days ago. I love the concept of the game and most of the gameplay, but Trendy just isn't all there yet. Huge glaring mistakes, ninja'd changes in patches, and so on. I keep my eyes on the forums, check the new patch notes, read a few threads to pass the time between playing other games, and I hope that I'll find that pivotal moment when Trendy realizes what they have to do and get it done. When I see that moment, I'll resume playing the game. This isn't some sort of protest or boycott or anything like that, but when I have a change my playstyle 2-3 times a week because Trendy is unsure of what they're doing or how to proceed, that's not enjoyable.

When glaring issues such as vanishing items, consistent crashes on high survival waves or suggestions that are brilliant like the "defeated" scroller or resetting leaderboards (admit it, with the decrease in mob spawns, you'll never take that #1 spot.) get ignored... that's when I can't really play a game anymore.

Solutions that ignore causation solve nothing. And right now, a huge group of players have seen the cause, but Trendy is still missing it. Lets all hope they see it soon.

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If Trendy wanted to change the game right after launch so drastically every week just put 'beta' at the end of dungeon defenders, have the balls to admit a mistake to releasing a unfinished game.
Trendy does not know how to test anything before just slamming it into their customers face and saying 'how does this work, tell us and well listen to the people who say it's still too easy'
There is such a thing as being too eager to please, and Trendy is doing that but missing the nail every single swing.

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Honestly..
Why is everyone crying about 15$?
I pay more for gas a week.
If 15$ is your biggest issue,I highly suggest taking a looking at your life because clearly some things are not normal.

You know what I expected when I paid 15$? A fun tower defense game with DLC maps.
What did I get? An entirely new tower defense experience with continued support from the developers in the form of community issue based patches and future DLC.

You know how many 60$ games don't receive ANY patches, or ANY support from developers?
I am >disturbed< by the fact that people feel this game isn't worth 15$, or want a refund.

This game has proven to be an amazing piece of work because of the huge dedication from the development team. People seriously, SERIOUSLY need to stop being incredibly greedy. Given this much support from a developer is extremely rare these days.

"full price title"
ITS 15 ****ING DOLLARS.

Sheesh.

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Honestly..
Why is everyone crying about 15$?
I pay more for gas a week.
If 15$ is your biggest issue,I highly suggest taking a looking at your life because clearly some things are not normal.

You know what I expected when I paid 15$? A fun tower defense game with DLC maps.
What did I get? An entirely new tower defense experience with continued support from the developers in the form of community issue based patches and future DLC.

You know how many 60$ games don't receive ANY patches, or ANY support from developers?
I am >disturbed< by the fact that people feel this game isn't worth 15$, or want a refund.

This game has proven to be an amazing piece of work because of the huge dedication from the development team. People seriously, SERIOUSLY need to stop being incredibly greedy. Given this much support from a developer is extremely rare these days.

"full price title"
ITS 15 ****ING DOLLARS.

Sheesh.


Nobody in this thread cried about $15 that I saw. At least, none of the major posts I can recall. I'd suggest rereading the OP's post and the follow-ups... This thread has nothing to do with the value or being ripped off...it's more of a wake. Oh dear, that sounded overdramatic...uhhh...a less dramatic, happier, less permanent wake? With puppies?

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Nobody in this thread cried about $15 that I saw. At least, none of the major posts I can recall. I'd suggest rereading the OP's post and the follow-ups... This thread has nothing to do with the value or being ripped off...it's more of a wake. Oh dear, that sounded overdramatic...uhhh...a less dramatic, happier, less permanent wake? With puppies?


1-2 posters mentioned 15$ tag
other posters defended the tag
im also defending the tag.

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Alright, here's my biggest problem with these threads so far. It's that they and now you assume you represent the entirety of the community. You don't. I can see your point on a lot of things you mentioned. I don't agree with them, but I can see where you're coming from. Because of this I can't really argue with you about them, because you seem pretty set on your conclusion given that you made only statements and demands.

However, to say that those opinions represent every single member of the DD community is absurd. That or you are trying to say that you are an elite DD player, that you and your supporters know better than the other players of the game. More than that, you know better than the game developers. That, to me, is off putting and doesn't warm me up to your personal struggle with the game so far.

So, I get it. I love some good hyperbole too, but to attack the game company for their actions that still gave you 200 hours of gameplay (which by the way isn't a small feat for any game company,) doesn't really reflect well. If you're not having fun with the game or find it unplayable then that's fine. You just don't enjoy the game anymore, it happens. But to say that the game itself is unenjoyable because you don't enjoy it is gross. It's one thing to play the game and enjoy it while asking for changes. It's another to effectively say, "I don't like how things have been going so far (the game is only three months old btwsies) and so I'm going to demand it be done my way or else I'm going to leave," is flat out obnoxious.

I'm sorry you're having a tough time with the game. Maybe your plan of taking a break is a good one. Major changes are coming up Friday. If what you don't like is rapid change, maybe those few weeks will give you the perspective to decide when and if you want to jump back in.

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It's the retroactive nerfs but absolute lack of retroactive buffs that puzzles me.

Why can they manage one but hardly bother with the other?

Also why did they go for such a nerfing campaign with the VW and elemental weapons, just to throw more overpowered items out there?

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Alright, here's my biggest problem with these threads so far. It's that they and now you assume you represent the entirety of the community. You don't. I can see your point on a lot of things you mentioned. I don't agree with them, but I can see where you're coming from. Because of this I can't really argue with you about them, because you seem pretty set on your conclusion given that you made only statements and demands.

However, to say that those opinions represent every single member of the DD community is absurd. That or you are trying to say that you are an elite DD player, that you and your supporters know better than the other players of the game. More than that, you know better than the game developers. That, to me, is off putting and doesn't warm me up to your personal struggle with the game so far.

So, I get it. I love some good hyperbole too, but to attack the game company for their actions that still gave you 200 hours of gameplay (which by the way isn't a small feat for any game company,) doesn't really reflect well. If you're not having fun with the game or find it unplayable then that's fine. You just don't enjoy the game anymore, it happens. But to say that the game itself is unenjoyable because you don't enjoy it is gross. It's one thing to play the game and enjoy it while asking for changes. It's another to effectively say, "I don't like how things have been going so far (the game is only three months old btwsies) and so I'm going to demand it be done my way or else I'm going to leave," is flat out obnoxious.

I'm sorry you're having a tough time with the game. Maybe your plan of taking a break is a good one. Major changes are coming up Friday. If you what you don't like is rapid changes, maybe those few weeks will give you the perspective to decide when and if you want to jump back in.


Porfa, reread his thread--not just for the threads it closely resembles, but for what it actually says. He neither pretends to speak for anyone (closest he comes is "many players are X", which is undeniably true). The closest this comes to speaking for people or putting words in their mouths is the analysis of the various factions that were influencing Trendy, which is less of a critical part and more of an attempt at analyzing forum politics.

Also, no attacks on Trendy and no saying he knows better. Once again, please reread. I know, because I was prepping to reply and disagree, stating something like: "threads like this just get in the way of people who have actual criticisms", but then reread very carefully and saw what this is. Pretty much everything you say his post is...it isn't. Have to say. Once again, please reread, accounting a tiny bit for the inevitable frustration at having potentially just given up on a project you've invested hundreds of hours in. He's saying that the game is developed by a young company that's really feeling their way through things, which makes the ride WAY bumpier. Don't think anyone--even the developers *especially)--would disagree with that. It isn't a demand post, it's not a threatening post.

It's a "I can't really enjoy this right now with all the ups and downs and turbulence of the rides, so I'm going to board another flight until they get used to the plane" post. Just one in which a wee bit of frustration oozes out halfway through.

M'thinks many people saw the title, saw a long post, and saw the declaration that he was leaving for a while and jumped to a lot of conclusions about what he's trying to say...which, given the associations everywhere else on the forums, is perfectly understandable.

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Every game has it's disadvantage.. Trendy are just juvenile fish in the big sea. Just give them some time.. nobody's perfect and also they're trying their best to improve.


Yeah, they do stuff like nerf ranged weapons based on point blank dummy tests. Or other mistakes I never actually thought anyone would make. Anyone. Definitely not a game developer.

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Porfa, reread his thread--not just for the threads it closely resembles, but for what it actually says. He neither pretends to speak for anyone (closest he comes is "many players are X", which is undeniably true).


Did you actually read the post?

We, as a community


That aside. It seems you read my post and a had white knight moment. Understandable but my point wasn't to make him look bad. It was to say that in his attempt to speak for the community as a whole it devalues his point, immensely. Because it implies (and you're right, he doesn't say anywhere in big, red explicit letters) that he knows better than both the game designers and anyone who doesn't agree with him.

So, I applaud you for wanting to make sure flaming isn't happening. :ogre:

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Yeah, they do stuff like nerf ranged weapons based on point blank dummy tests. Or other mistakes I never actually thought anyone would make. Anyone. Definitely not a game developer.

I believe they have what you'd call an abysmal testing ethic. It's as if everything is rushed through because they all have somewhere else they'd rather be.

I work for a software development company where we have strict criteria for testing a product before it goes anywhere.

Lots of video game developers seem to have a really lax attitude to quality control for some reason, maybe it's because they get away with releasing their products in an unfinished mess.

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Did you actually read the post?

That aside. It seems you read my post and a had white knight moment. Understandable but my point wasn't to make him look bad. It was to say that in his attempt to speak for the community as a whole it devalues his point, immensely. Because it implies (and you're right, he doesn't say anywhere in big, red explicit letters) that he knows better than both the game designers and anyone who doesn't agree with him.

So, I applaud you for wanting to make sure flaming isn't happening. :ogre:

"We, as a community"

We, as a community, have been plagued with abysmal support, in my opinion

We, as a community, have been plagued with abysmal support [not speaking FOR the community, but rather on the treatment the community has received, which he believes is sub-par--huge difference between the two; the pronoun we was included there, in my opinion, to emphasize his placement among what he considers the wronged party], in my opinion [once again, emphasizing his perspective on how the community has been treated, not what it thinks, feels, or should think or feel, huuuuuuge difference].


Gotta take the whole sentence, not just the first four words ;) . Oh, white knight. I hate that term. I do a lot of debate and, as a hobby, like going to bars, and getting people to make asses of themselves until they get kicked out, looking like the nice reasonable fellow all the while. It's more like I just have a minor allergic reaction to overgeneralizations. And idiots wearing wifebeaters in clubs.

But yea, you seem like a reasonable individual, totally know where you're coming from (that could be misconstrued as white knighting too, whereas someone who reads a bit closer could see what a **** I'm being). I'm pretty sure the whole tone that you disliked came from the frustration--the actual points, filtering out a bit for the frustration, were all just that. Though I'll agree, he did point out a few criticisms that are commonly thrown at Trendy--particularly regarding the haphazard testing process checking the nerfs and buffs, an issue that, in my mind, is responsible for many of the game's current problems.

That said, many interpretations on what any given thing means, and only way to clarify it would be to ask him. Either way, you can probably guess which interpretation of the message was the one I agreed with and subsequently aligned m'self with later on!

P.S. Self-interest OP

P.P.S. Oh GOD, I've been writing way too many essays tonight...you have to be in an appropriately smarmy **** mood to get any political philosophy work done. Plus makes you way bored and inclined to spend wayyy too much time online.

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I'm sorry you're having a tough time with the game. Maybe your plan of taking a break is a good one. Major changes are coming up Friday. If what you don't like is rapid change, maybe those few weeks will give you the perspective to decide when and if you want to jump back in.


Here's the kicker. See, first it was Challenge weapons that were "endgame." Week and a half later, hard Spooktacular weapons. Another week later, some insane Spooktacular weapons. Week after that, super weapons from insane glitter/spook/PS/survival item farming (With the occasional item from the shop.) However, as the endgame advances, previous tier items are getting nerfed and mobs are getting buffed. Take too much time away from the game and you'll never make any progress when you return because things will be set only for the super hardcore players that can go from previous endgame to new endgame between patches. Not a very good philosophy.

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I'm going to bump this because trendy doesn't learn. (haven't played 7.10e, but come on...)

@ Shinnyshin:

It was meant from the point of view of a player who, being part of said community, personally felt the repercussions of Trendy's actions.

I was pissed when I wrote this, period. I still am, but it's slowly just turning into dissapointment everytime I have steam open and 10 patches leak through.

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Here's the kicker. See, first it was Challenge weapons that were "endgame." Week and a half later, hard Spooktacular weapons. Another week later, some insane Spooktacular weapons. Week after that, super weapons from insane glitter/spook/PS/survival item farming (With the occasional item from the shop.) However, as the endgame advances, previous tier items are getting nerfed and mobs are getting buffed. Take too much time away from the game and you'll never make any progress when you return because things will be set only for the super hardcore players that can go from previous endgame to new endgame between patches. Not a very good philosophy.


I feel this is exactly the issue with what's been happening. I love this game, but I'm enjoying it less and less due to the fact that I play slow, and enjoy soloing.

by the time I was playing glitter on hard, we were in 7.9. I could beat it just fine. 7.10 came out and I'm finally getting more godly items. 7.10b comes out, and I'm getting nothing, nor have I beaten spooktacular on hard. once I finally got to spooktacular on hard, and beat it (only once while using the huntress), I get this crappy weapon that at level 14 does less than 3k dps.

Not that I don't enjoy playing with other people, I really do. However when I join a server to do an insane spooky run, and get kicked for not having a high enough dps, something doesn't exactly click. Trendy seems to be throwing in a catch 22 with most of the high-end levels. For those of us without the OP gear, we aren't allowed to play, because we don't have it. How do we get it? By playing these levels that we aren't allowed to play.


Having said that, I am going to continue playing this game, because although it's a bit rocky in some points, the premise of this game is unique, and ultimately a one of a kind, fun game.


TL;DR: nerfing damage and upping enemy HP = WRRRYYYYYY

Trendy = not too bad.

Dungeon Defenders = rocky, but still awesome.

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