If i would like to play cartoony FPS i would play TF2

And the player community is dwindling as a result with it becoming harder and harder to find a game to join. All my friends have already quit, so I'm completely dependant on PUG groups now and the vast majority of games in the list now seem to be Shops with Chinese Famrers trying to peddle PvP gear.

I'm rapidly losing patience to be honest.

People are soloing, or made some friends that they group with exclusively. So we will see less public games (there are other reasons, but that is not the point)

Try finding some steam/forum users to play with, at least you will have better odds of being in a group that knows what they are doing, versus joining random PUGs.

FPS mod was just that. A mod made and to be released to the community for the sole purpose of promoting the DunDefDevKit. And its a neat little way to play.

Idiot downloads pre-alpha PvP.

Idiot gets mad.

Idiot rages on forums.

The cycle continues.

Well as we say in Britain 'The proof of the pudding is in the eating', and so far what wev'e seen is a lot phaffing about boosting and nerfing things that didn't need boosting or nerfing presumably to try and placate the PvP community and a new PvP Capture the Flag map that wasn't really of much relevance to the game.

Lol they didn't buff or nerf anything because of PvP. Everything they buffed or nerfed had to do with PvE.

Lol they didn't buff or nerf anything because of PvP. Everything they buffed or nerfed had to do with PvE.

Yeah. Genius here doesn't seem to grasp the concept that stats on everything work differently in PvP than PvE, specifically so they don't have to juggle balancing both. But it's easier just to complain about a pre-alpha sneak peek than it is to contribute anything of worth.

I believe over 90% of your customers bought this title for tower defence game

While I'm sure there is some validity to this statement, you could argue that 100% of the customers bought the game because it's fun. Let them decide how to have their fun. CTF isn't being forced on you, and as far as we can tell the PVP balance changes are just changes that affect the PVP modes. If you're really put off with the way the game is headed you could always pick up the DDDK and start modding to your liking. Who knows, if your changes are well received they could even get incorporated into the actual game.

While I'm sure there is some validity to this statement, you could argue that 100% of the customers bought the game because it's fun. Let them decide how to have their fun. CTF isn't being forced on you, and as far as we can tell the PVP balance changes are just changes that affect the PVP modes. If you're really put off with the way the game is headed you could always pick up the DDDK and start modding to your liking. Who knows, if your changes are well received they could even get incorporated into the actual game.

Let me put it that way:
I believe 90% of customers bought the game for its tower defence gameplay.
Most of those 90% bought it even tho there is tower defence in war3 and sc2, becouse they thought if they pay for a standalone TD game with ladders, ranked leaderboards, rpg-style progression etc. it will be more fun than just-TD no-progression games on battlenet's custom maps.

So im not saying its bad becouse i think they are forcing me to play CTF, hero vs hero, no-TD gameplay, but im saying they abandoned work on the most important concept of this game: PvP competition in TD gameplay. Please read with understunding.

Freak out!!!

I think the first PvP incursion they should have gone with is like defend the base or something, 1 team defends 1 team gets minor creep spawns and such, and for pvp to work in this game HP needs to be increased 10x on everything basicly, 100k dps vs 1.5-2k HP heroes = derp?

CTF is still in alpha phase, as we've heard a thousand times.

But there is nothing wrong with ADDing new types of gameplay to an existing game.

The Tower Defense has not been taken away, you are not required to play the FPS or PvP aspects to acquire the achievements, etc, etc.

In fact, CTF is something that KEPT MacPimpin's interest in Dungeon Defenders.
They didn't do anything wrong in any aspect, and there have been a lot of CTF matches that are enjoyable to break away from the same grind of Summit, Spooktacular, etc, etc.

No reason to be angry :)

The OP have some really good points because as you know, i saw you play on your App and you basically owning everyone in CTF with just the pew pew alone : )

There was no Towers any where. The CTF was basically a spray feast and those spray meant a quick death if you don't have your perfect gear max out.

That first impression alone made a lot of players stop playing that mode because it has nothing to do with Tower building but those got the best pve gears will win.

I also wonder how TE going to balance that out with everyone running around with their perfect pve gears leaving causual players on stand by to get destroy once they pit against those elite pve farmers.

im saying they abandoned work on the most important concept of this game: PvP competition in TD gameplay. Please read with understunding.

I'm sorry but you have no clue about what they are or are not working on.

That first impression alone made a lot of players stop playing that mode because it has nothing to do with Tower building but those got the best pve gears will win.

What you and every other people who stopped playing after seeing that don't understand is that this map/mode is STILL IN ALPHA. It will be balanced once they get enough feedback and towers will have a more important role.

I'm sorry but you have no clue about what they are or are not working on.

Ok, i will play your game troll:
Of course i cant be sure of what they are doing, but its not hard to guess when you focus on some project, you want to finish it before you start new one - that basically means, they ARE wasting resources, time and game's momentum continuing working on that bad idea. I could anticipate playerbase, modding community to come up with some cheap FPS game mode idea in game based on TD (same as people creating fps shooters on starcraft 2 engine trough map editor), but no, we have game developers wasting time on such thing... Thats a pity.

Lol they didn't buff or nerf anything because of PvP. Everything they buffed or nerfed had to do with PvE.

Then my point still stands as it's not necessary to buff or nerf anything in a Team Co-Op game. Even if it's over powered it benefits the team.

So im not saying its bad becouse i think they are forcing me to play CTF, hero vs hero, no-TD gameplay, but im saying they abandoned work on the most important concept of this game: PvP competition in TD gameplay. Please read with understunding.

I agree they wasted development effort on a map which had nothing to do with the reason most of their customers decided to buy the game.

Fortunately, you are wrong about the fact that they are forcing us to play it. I haven't even bothered downloading it.

If they do try and force me to play it (e.g. by sticking some vital item in it as a reward, that I need for the proper game.) then that would be a major mistake. Other games have tried to mix strategy and PvP and it doesn't work. The two concepts are incompatible at a fundamental design level, and actually work against each other in terms of goals and player expectations.

Then my point still stands as it's not necessary to buff or nerf anything in a Team Co-Op game. Even if it's over powered it benefits the team.

I agree they wasted development effort on a map which had nothing to do with the reason most of their customers decided to buy the game.

Fortunately, you are wrong about the fact that they are forcing us to play it. I haven't even bothered downloading it.

If they do try and force me to play it (e.g. by sticking some vital item in it as a reward, that I need for the proper game.) then that would be a major mistake. Other games have tried to mix strategy and PvP and it doesn't work. The two concepts are incompatible at a fundamental design level, and actually work against each other in terms of goals and player expectations.

So by your logic they shouldn't have nerfed squires or huntress'. At one time neither the monk nor the apprentice were being used very often. Why should they be if the squires towers were more useful than the apprentices and the huntress you could dps down anything while holding down the mouse button or clear lanes while spamming piercing shot. Why bother having multiple classes if everyone is drawn to a single overpowered class? I could guarantee at that time, quite a few people hadn't even attempted to create a monk. Having an apprentice on your team wouldn't have been very benefical at the time. Why would they if they could complete everything with a squire.

I don't understand why more content is such a negative thing. As stated above, it's not forced upon us. The main focus of the game is still the TD portion of the game. The new game mode is a sneak peak. There's still alot of balancing that needs to be done. Same with the other optional challenge, PVP. If you aren't enjoying that aspect of the game, don't play it. You also don't have to ruin it for others.

So by your logic they shouldn't have nerfed squires or huntress'.

What I said was I didn't see it as that important to warrant the effort of the patch when there are more important things that need to be addressed. The same point really applies to the CTF map. I haven't bothered downloading because I'm not interested, and personally I would have preferred something else.

More content is certainly a good thing, but the CTF map is out of sync with the rest of the game and so has little value in enhancing the main game. If anything it acts against the main game by drawing off 16 players at a time from hosting and participating in the main game content.

As for the balancing myth, game balancing is a 'Holy Grail', developers can seek it forever and never find it, and in a Team Co-Op it's not that important.

What I said was I didn't see it as that important to warrant the effort of the patch when there are more important things that need to be addressed. The same point really applies to the CTF map. I haven't bothered downloading because I'm not interested, and personally I would have preferred something else.

More content is certainly a good thing, but the CTF map is out of sync with the rest of the game and so has little value in enhancing the main game. If anything it acts against the main game by drawing off 16 players at a time from hosting and participating in the main game content.

As for the balancing myth, game balancing is a 'Holy Grail', developers can seek it forever and never find it, and in a Team Co-Op it's not that important.

Totally understand. Although there are certain measures that should be taken when it comes to balance. I really don't think that a single character should be able to beat all content. You should be utilizing multiple classes strengths and not just, for example, squires towers. You should be utilizing the monks auras and the huntress' traps along with the squires towers. Thats seems to be what the devs are more or less aiming for. That being said, I agree with your point. They will never be able to create a perfectly balanced game.

I really don't think that a single character should be able to beat all content. You should be utilizing multiple classes strengths and not just, for example, squires towers.

Yes and No!

This is supposed to be a Team Co-Op Game, so certainly there should be a motivation for players to team up to beat certain maps and gain certain valued rewards. The Halloween costume rewards were probably the best example to date.

However, Trendy have to allow for the fact that some players like to play solo, so most maps need to be capable of being completed by one player, even if they have to use character switching to do it.

And nobody is getting stressy about the fact any Level 70 character can beat Insane Deeper Well solo, are they?

So, the real issue would arise if one player, using only one class could beat the 'The Summit' on Insane difficulty. Then I would say that we have a balancing problem. Not between character classes or weapons, but between character classes and maps.

Quite a nice video below with Sir Koroshi doing The Summit solo (but using character switching)

Yes and No!

This is supposed to be a Team Co-Op Game, so certainly there should be a motivation for players to team up to beat certain maps and gain certain valued rewards. The Halloween costume rewards were probably the best example to date.

However, Trendy have to allow for the fact that some players like to play solo, so most maps need to be capable of being completed by one player, even if they have to use character switching to do it.

And nobody is getting stressy about the fact any Level 70 character can beat Insane Deeper Well solo, are they?

So, the real issue would arise if one player, using only one class could beat the 'The Summit' on Insane difficulty. Then I would say that we have a balancing problem. Not between character classes or weapons, but between character classes and maps.

Absolutely. I generally only play solo so difficulty should scale appropriately. It's not something I was taking into account, but yes progression also scales accordingly and therefore be harder later on. My post was more directed towards the later levels. We agree on this subject, which is good.

The other problem being the CTF debate. I'm definitely seeing the other side of the argument. The game is primarily focused around being a co-op tower defense game. That being said, I still think people should keep an open mind about this and be a little more optimistic. It's a brand new mode thats still pre-alpha (iirc). This, just as PVP, are in need of tweaks. You can`t argue with that. But it`s a new element added to the game for a break from the grind alot of people endure.

I think that adding some new competitive modes such as this are great. They`ll help keep interest for alot of people. It`s not everyones cup of tea, but QQing on the forums isn`t the answer (directed towwards OP). If you don`t like it, again, you aren`t forced to play. I won`t be, I`m not a competitive person. Just keep in mind that the devs will be sorting out the balance (which yes, won`t be perfect) so don`t base your opinion off of an incomplete mode.

Yeah! I'm just dissapointed that PvP TPS took precedent over a Team v Team Tower Defence Option. Seems a bit lacking in imagination and a detraction from the main aspect that makes this game unique.

Yeah! I'm just dissapointed that PvP TPS took precedent over a Team v Team Tower Defence Option. Seems a bit lacking in imagination and a detraction from the main aspect that makes this game unique.

I dont think it was lack of imagination - i believe it looked as a tempting and smart idea to quickly, easily make additional game mode. Turned out to be not that quick and easy after all, and not as fun as it seemed to be. They just started working on it without finishing the concept Simply rushed work on it, without thinking trough all the possible problems that comes with totally changing the gameplay design the game have. Lets face it: hero vs hero gameplay doesnt fit into DD game modes. It could be just another title, becouse its totally different game, not different game mode.

But i also think this move wasnt just about making new game mode for playerbase, but to show modders they can totally change the game and think outside of the box. It was more of modding tools advertisement insetad of additional content for DD. Now they should work on a real content with thought-trough gameplay design that doesnt totally change the game into something wierd.

Ok, i will play your game troll:
Of course i cant be sure of what they are doing, but its not hard to guess when you focus on some project, you want to finish it before you start new one - that basically means, they ARE wasting resources, time and game's momentum continuing working on that bad idea. I could anticipate playerbase, modding community to come up with some cheap FPS game mode idea in game based on TD (same as people creating fps shooters on starcraft 2 engine trough map editor), but no, we have game developers wasting time on such thing... Thats a pity.

Except that you have no evidence that they are wasting resources and you don't really know what you are talking about.

Then my point still stands as it's not necessary to buff or nerf anything in a Team Co-Op game. Even if it's over powered it benefits the team.

Who cares if it benefits the team? If it is not balanced it has to be changed. Hacked weapons benefit the team as well, do you suggest that they should allow that?

If either of you dislikes this, you can create your own TC of the game with the tools they have released.

Whine.

Who cares if it benefits the team? If it is not balanced it has to be changed.

So, basically what your saying is that regardless of whether it's of any benefit to the gaming community you want the Dev's to continue wasting their time fiddling with weapon stats, instead of getting on with producing new content. You claimed there were benefits to this effort, but it seems that you're unable to come up with any.