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A Mana Reward dependent on level challenge


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[QUOTE]If your gonna flame/rant at somebody at least know what your talking about. Had you read/comprehended above posts this isnt about if I can do it, as I can. The entire point of this thread is a way to reduce farming whether or not you think its needed. And as far as I know the upgrading insane weapons making them worth more than invested only works on console. [/QUOTE]

My first paragraph was ment only to show silly it is to make assumptions and statements about others. They are not arguments, neither for, nor against, and saying things like what you did (and i in response) leads nowhere. I ll therefore ignore the part where you again assume what i do or do not understand.

If you are uninterested in other peoples opinion about reducing mana farming you should not have posted in this thread, and instead wrote an email directly to Trendy. To write about something in an open public forum, and then claim opinions of other posters are irrelevant is beyond illogical. As for OP, i have already addressed that stance in my previous post.

[QUOTE]Also as stated before players start out at level 1 on medium. Players level to 70 fast. The problem lies in the scaling of difficulties. Easy/Medium are snorefests with little to no reward no matter what skill level you are. Medium could be scaled up in difficulty with better rewards to transition to hard smoother. Then hard can be scaled up slightly in difficulty and improved noticeably in rewards to keep a casual/average gamer content and let them take occasional shots at insane in the long run.[/QUOTE]

Primary problem with what you are saying is that its an arbitrary opinion on what is smooth/unsmooth transition and apropriate difficulty level. (The fact that it is arbitrary is even further reinforced by the random nature of item rewards. It could be considered as part of the problem, but since its part of the genre and base design its acceptable.) So what one would find too difficult without enough reward for it, someone else could find as too easy with too much reward. How do you balance that? IMHO Trendy is doing a spot on job by bringing classes inline without killing their uniqness, and i find the difficulty just right for my playstyle. AFAIK any changes to amounts of mana earned would make the game less for me. Hope you can see what i did there.

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Then I suggest being straight forward instead of being cryptic or back tracking Roga .. as you even had a fanboy "BAM" quote you. I would therefore be safe in assuming your flaming between how you wrote your post, and how others percieved it as well.

Furthermore Im sick and tired of hearing how easy content is for Johnny while Bobby is trying to constructively post something that could improve game play for many. Its the same people over and over ramming their "Im awesome, this is easy, you suck" rhetoric down dozens of posts of people with legitimate concerns about fun in a GAME.

If people want to bring an opinion to a forum with a constructive suggestion, they should bring a constructive agreement or critique. NOT what you did.

IMHO I also agree Trendy is doing an amazing amount of good work trying to juggle keeping people content. The root problem is alot of gamers are put off by the immense amount of work now required to start fresh to farming Hard+. You and I dont have this problem, we have our strats, we have our 70's, we have our gear. But I challenge anyone to start right now a brand new account and try playing this game 1-2 hours a day with 3 other players.

It starts out great. But you soon realize you blew all your Mana on useless gear. You cant do any hard levels atm bse your Monk is on a fishing trip. You go do a medium and after an hour have 100-200k mana and no upgrades to show for it. You could ask one of the many very helpful people on the forums or IRC for a "Run Through" of something but theres not only a line up but really you just sit there doing little watching their animus out DPS you and your 3 friends combined.

All alot of us are asking for is a break in the amount of farming required. I take it one step further and ask that content up to hard not be so gear and class dependant. It almost feels like having to schedule DD time just to play. Medium isnt an option its far too easy and offers no reward. This game should not be centered around needing a certain class and gear level to have fun .. period.

If you cant understand this, say what you want but you are the lost cause. The countless threads started asking for similar things are to increase THEIR fun, and doesnt even affect yours. I fail to even understand why half of you are QQ about our posts.

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Farm the mana, if you don't like farming, beat the Demon Lord on Insane with a squire, spend 3mil on upgrading the Rapier, sell it for 10mil. You've more than tripled your money, now quit whining you dumb kids.


You cant do that on PC. Who's the dumb kid?

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Its the same people over and over ramming their "Im awesome, this is easy, you suck" rhetoric down dozens of posts of people with legitimate concerns about fun in a GAME.

I'm awesome. This game is pretty easy (except Raining Goblins... CURSE YOU). Most people that play most games suck.

I still think having an easier way to earn mana would be better. The whole forum-driven "economy" in this game is... bleh. I have no interest in going back to the relative stone ages of internet trading. I really enjoy playing this game solo and with my internet and RL friends. However, what I'm hearing from everyone (myself included) when we get togehter and someone asks "what should we do tonight?", the answer is always "we need to farm more mana."

Increasing the amount of mana that various challenges and modes give is one option, and would allow those that just wanna do their own thing and grind their own way to get the mana needed to upgrade top-end gear.

Adding an MMO-style Auction House would be another way. I'd rather see that, but it'd take a LOT more work and might just not be possible in this game.

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I think it's a great idea - worst case scenario for those who think it's already easy to farm mana: it'll be just as easy for you, still. Nothing is being lost here by any player, and if it'll help casual players get more out of the game (something that the 'hardcores' have already done), more power to them.

Just my 2cp

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@Gyro

First of all, my nick is Rogacz, not Roga. And noone saw any flaming (inlcuding a dev who posted right after my post) except you. Furthermore i never wrote that content is easy or farmable for me, and you can see by my post count that i actually refrain from posting on the forums. You are an angry person building straw man out of nothing and blowing everything out of proportion.

[QUOTE]If people want to bring an opinion to a forum with a constructive suggestion, they should bring a constructive agreement or critique. NOT what you did.(...)It almost feels like having to schedule DD time just to play. Medium isnt an option its far too easy and offers no reward.
[QUOTE]

Again, my post offered logical arguments not QQ about 'i dont have enough time for DD' - and that is what you are writing and claiming is a valid argument.

[QUOTE]
But I challenge anyone to start right now a brand new account and try playing this game 1-2 hours a day with 3 other players. (...) This game should not be centred around needing a certain class and gear level to have fun .. period.(...)It almost feels like having to schedule DD time just to play. Medium isnt an option its far too easy and offers no reward.
[/QUOTE]

This stance is exactly what i addressed. You are a person who thinks that getting that insane achievement/ perfect weapon is the only reason to play this game. You are so obsessing about a few pixels, and the fact that someone else is doing XYZ more dps . You do it so much that it sucks the whole fun out playing for you. No reward will fix it, until you will almost automatically have all the things/achievements.

[QUOTE]If you cant understand this, say what you want but you are the lost cause. The countless threads started asking for similar things are to increase THEIR fun, and doesnt even affect yours. I fail to even understand why half of you are QQ about our posts. [/QUOTE]
If I am a lost cause to your way of thinking then thank god. I enjoy playing hardcore from time to time in some games, and being extra softcore at other time in other games - to the point where i at times use cheats to beat the game (solo only ofc). I enjoy playing the game, not boasting about being able to do it on maximum difficulty or having a perfect item. I understand it is difficult for YOU to understand that point of view, but i do hope that at some point you will.

Changes you are proposing will fix nothing. As soon as you get those rewards they will lose all meaning to you, and you will instead start obsessing about some other rewards. But there are some people, who are genuinely happy with how things are right now. And the countless threads - assuming for a moment that there is about 1k threads like this - that is probably less then 1% of sold units (thats a fifth of total threads in general discussion so its grossly exagerated number, and the amount of sold units is probably higher). Again, its just a vocal minority.

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Why farm? It's part of the game, that's why.
Why do I have to roll the dice when I'm playing Monopoly? Why can't the game just decide the number for me? It gets so monotonous.
Why can't my game just run my guy around and shoot for me? My fingers get tired from having to push the buttons so much.
Why can't people just do **** they have to do in order to earn the things they want without whining like little ******* about it?

And what about the people that only play when they feel like playing?
Should they have to wait 6 months just to be able to upgrade their gear?
And why do you compare less farming to botting?

[QUOTE]Farm the mana, if you don't like farming, beat the Demon Lord on Insane with a squire, spend 3mil on upgrading the Rapier, sell it for 10mil. You've more than tripled your money, now quit whining you dumb kids.[/QUOTE]

1: Thats a exploit, about as bad as hacking imo
2: Thats not possible on pc
So quit telling me to do something thats not possible/shouldnt be done, you dumb kid

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Changes you are proposing will fix nothing. As soon as you get those rewards they will lose all meaning to you, and you will instead start obsessing about some other rewards. But there are some people, who are genuinely happy with how things are right now. And the countless threads - assuming for a moment that there is about 1k threads like this - that is probably less then 1% of sold units (thats a fifth of total threads in general discussion so its grossly exagerated number, and the amount of sold units is probably higher). Again, its just a vocal minority.


You seem to forget that most causal players(the ones that simply dont have time to farm) DONT use the forums for games they play. They just play the game

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The fact you think your first post wasnt a flame is laughable just bse a Dev didnt do anything about it? He cares more about the threads point. Which oddly enough if you read the entire thread alot of players agreed with. This was never about items, but making it easier for casual players to aquire mana to upgrade items. This was never about me and items, regardless of how you twist it.

If a large number of players want it, AND the Dev thinks its a good idea for a possible edition to the game Id say your the one in the minority of thinking. And as I tried to say in my walls of texts and even the guy above your last post says .. this doesnt even affect anyone except casual players. Why are you so dead set you have to keep banging your head against the forums to rail against someone?

I think at this point we both look rather silly and Im done with you. The majority of the people who read this thread and the Dev got the point even if you dont.

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[QUOTE]Increasing the amount of mana that various challenges and modes give is one option, and would allow those that just wanna do their own thing and grind their own way to get the mana needed to upgrade top-end gear.[/QUOTE]
I like the idea of a flat amount that scales based on the stage/challenge and the number of players. This would encourage more players to play co-op rather than leveling a tower squire/app/monk and a hero huntress to farm on their own. There could be more emphasis by Trendy to play with other people.

[QUOTE]Adding an MMO-style Auction House would be another way. I'd rather see that, but it'd take a LOT more work and might just not be possible in this game. [/QUOTE]
It probably would take some work, but I don't think it's undoable. It would, however, be resource intensive and trendy might have to monetize more of the game to finance it. But it'd be a win-win for the players. The really tricky part would be implementing it across platforms....

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You know, maybe we're coming at this from the wrong angle. Maybe mana is just as easy to farm as it needs to be, but upgrade costs are too high? We are very much discouraged from experimenting with gear when it might costs us an entire weeks worth of mana (assuming the 1 to 2 hours a night thing). Cutting upgrades costs in half or to 1/3 across the board would keep the biggest ticket items still require a significant time investment to max (chicken, sicarius, nosferatu) while making it relatively simple to max out armor and mid-range weaponry.

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You know, maybe we're coming at this from the wrong angle. Maybe mana is just as easy to farm as it needs to be, but upgrade costs are too high? We are very much discouraged from experimenting with gear when it might costs us an entire weeks worth of mana (assuming the 1 to 2 hours a night thing). Cutting upgrades costs in half or to 1/3 across the board would keep the biggest ticket items still require a significant time investment to max (chicken, sicarius, nosferatu) while making it relatively simple to max out armor and mid-range weaponry.


+1 for a good and out of the box idea.

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You know, maybe we're coming at this from the wrong angle. Maybe mana is just as easy to farm as it needs to be, but upgrade costs are too high? We are very much discouraged from experimenting with gear when it might costs us an entire weeks worth of mana (assuming the 1 to 2 hours a night thing). Cutting upgrades costs in half or to 1/3 across the board would keep the biggest ticket items still require a significant time investment to max (chicken, sicarius, nosferatu) while making it relatively simple to max out armor and mid-range weaponry.


+1

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You know, maybe we're coming at this from the wrong angle. Maybe mana is just as easy to farm as it needs to be, but upgrade costs are too high? We are very much discouraged from experimenting with gear when it might costs us an entire weeks worth of mana (assuming the 1 to 2 hours a night thing). Cutting upgrades costs in half or to 1/3 across the board would keep the biggest ticket items still require a significant time investment to max (chicken, sicarius, nosferatu) while making it relatively simple to max out armor and mid-range weaponry.


Oh without a doubt. It causes a huge knock-on effect with items that just makes farming even more necessary.

It costs what, at least 5mil to upgrade an Animus to max? So either you keep doing Summit until you get a really good one worth upgrading or you spend a lot of money on the 1 you currently have knowing its not even that good.
To those people who don't farm mana or play through the game with friends where mana gain is terrible, spending 500k-1mil upgrading an average weapon just isn't feasible, so either you spend all your mana on 1 not-so-good item and have none left for anything better or you continue using something crap till you eventually find something better.
And this isn't even getting to those equipments that cost obscene amounts of money to upgrade.

And the 30mil costs of some pets is just stupid. I'm sorry, but even though I do some farming for mana I am not going to spend 10-20 hours farming mana to buy 1 pet from the store. The cap needs to be a little more reasonable than that. Even the low-end pets are out of reach of new players. At least, the ones that aren't terrible with 4 negative stats. I'm sure everyone remembers when they'd completed Foundries on Medium with a lvl8 character fresh from hero creation and checked the store to find pets coming in at 1-2mil when they have about 30k to their name at the most.

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Id like a fixed mana reward after a coop game because as it is now, I need to grind solo glitter to farm mana. The moment I team up, the mana gains hit the floor.

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The entire point of this thread is a way to reduce farming whether or not you think its needed.


But I don't think it's needed. Why should I have to have my game changed because you can't find the time to play like the rest of us? Quit your whining that everything isn't handed to you on a silver platter and do the work that's required. If you can't find the time to put into the game, DO NOT come on here crying that you want the awesome cool stuff everyone else has when they put in the time to obtain it.

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atm i'm farming ramparts hard, 400k in 7 minutes, to upgrade my vw which is at level 23 or something. anyway to make 1mill in one run on a level. i tried ramparts insane but lose on the last or 2nd to last wave

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But I don't think it's needed. Why should I have to have my game changed because you can't find the time to play like the rest of us? Quit your whining that everything isn't handed to you on a silver platter and do the work that's required. If you can't find the time to put into the game, DO NOT come on here crying that you want the awesome cool stuff everyone else has when they put in the time to obtain it.


Of course you dont think its needed, your the genius who told the PC players to use a console only exploit for mana. Yes exploit. Noone is asking for free stuff, just less work. If you disagree noone cares. Your playing essentially a different game on a different platform and suggest we all exploit the game where possible.

Sometimes I wonder how I attract so many reader's with low comprehension skills or trolls. Roga and I may strongly disagree, but with the exception of his first paragraph in this thread at least he was more or less articulate. You and MD look as ridiculous as my need to respond constantly to such rubbish.

I need some troll deet and a bottle of whiskey ^.^

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atm i'm farming ramparts hard, 400k in 7 minutes, to upgrade my vw which is at level 23 or something. anyway to make 1mill in one run on a level. i tried ramparts insane but lose on the last or 2nd to last wave


Well yes, but imagine if they added this and now you're making 1.5m a run instead. So you can spend less time farming and more time playing.

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But I don't think it's needed. Why should I have to have my game changed because you can't find the time to play like the rest of us? Quit your whining that everything isn't handed to you on a silver platter and do the work that's required. If you can't find the time to put into the game, DO NOT come on here crying that you want the awesome cool stuff everyone else has when they put in the time to obtain it.


The rest of us? Your the minority dude. Btw, fitting avatar.

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You know, maybe we're coming at this from the wrong angle. Maybe mana is just as easy to farm as it needs to be, but upgrade costs are too high? We are very much discouraged from experimenting with gear when it might costs us an entire weeks worth of mana (assuming the 1 to 2 hours a night thing). Cutting upgrades costs in half or to 1/3 across the board would keep the biggest ticket items still require a significant time investment to max (chicken, sicarius, nosferatu) while making it relatively simple to max out armor and mid-range weaponry.


+100. Upgrade costs are ridiculous and make experimenting pointless. It's why people use 3 or 4 weapons and only a couple different pets per class: because it's too damn expensive to max out anything but the bis (best in slot) items. If upgrade costs were more manageable we'd see more non-bis weapons and pets being used and and less of everyone looking exactly the same. Hmm, it could even help balance things out in pvp. Just a thought.

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good point, falkon. I upgraded three items while leveling and then realized how poor a decision that was (figuratively and literally). I rarely see anyone upgrade anything so the gear might as well just have no upgrades if it's just put on and toss when the next new thing comes along.

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i didn't bother reading the thread, just going to give my opinion based on the topic of discussion

my opinion is that yes, a mana reward based on difficulty would be good. however, i don't think a flat reward at end of mission is the way to go about this

i think that the mana reward should be given at the end of each wave, based on a percentage of the experience you would have obtained. in other words, the mana reward only applies to level 70 characters. the percentage should be based on the difficulty setting, so like easy gets 10%, medium gets 20%, hard gets 30%, insane gets 40% (just rough numbers for sake of example)

my reasoning is thus:

1) you don't actually need mana while you are leveling. yes, it would be nice, but you only really need mana for equipment upgrading, which only really matters at endgame. since endgame content is only really doable by high levels, i figure it makes sense

2) a flat mana reward would mean they'd have to individually balance every level. a percentage based on experience you would have gained means that they just need to tweak the percentage and it will globally balance all content

3) keeping the percentages lower than 50% means that you still get a decent amount of bonus mana, but not enough that it would imbalance compared to the mana you obtain from end of wave auto-sell. for reference, a bonus mana value of 25% of earned experience would equate to approximately 100k-200k extra mana from glitterhelm on hard (assuming low end to average run)

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This is pointless, if mana is easier to get items will just get more expensive.


He's talking about shop and upgrade rpices, so, no.

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