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Fozzie

The Summoner

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Probably way down the roadmap for the next hero addition but I know that the Summoner is the one I want to see next. The big question that got partially answered by the neutering of the buff beam to the overclock beam, is that CG aren't following the DD1 path with heroes so are SUs separate or not.

I liked DD1 in that you could build and a Summoner joins and you could say knock yourself out as they aren't using any of the DU.

This did mean on endgame material you likely had to use all the DU and SU.

I feel CG are a bit stingy with DU currently so a slight increase in DU and maybe have minions cost less.

In DD1 no one used anything but the archers and the mages, they may have messed around with the orc, dark elf warrior and ogre but realistically the Summoner only had 2 units in the meta.

Perhaps a shake up, maybe the Summoner could use 5 SU\DU for an anti siren minion, possibly even a flying minion like a crystaline wyvern 

 

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I never liked that the Summoner was mandatory for later maps or just faster progression while costing additional money. People who weren't willing to buy him were at a significant disadvantage. If he comes in for free I'm not against it.

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2 hours ago, Fozzie said:

In DD1 no one used anything but the archers and the mages

I saw a decent number of spiders included in builds

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Absolutely loved the Summoner. Best part? It completley added a new style of play with the top down RTS style system.

If not the summoner I would love to see some other characters that really push the boat out in terms of play style.

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22 hours ago, Batophobia said:

I saw a decent number of spiders included in builds

Quite right forgot about them.

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Su litterally invakidates anything that isnt designed around it. That would mean all current difficulties would be invalidated. Id rather the summoner have unique sunmons that cost du then essentially being a dps increase to every map.

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Oh go please no. I would hate to have a repeat of DD1 where it was "Buy summoner or never do late game content." If they add the summoner back they need to do something different because it boiled down to do you want to have twice as many towers or not?

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Remember that the Summoner could not fight. This was a major factor to why they originally used MU instead of DU, as it was an entirely defence oriented build and pointless otherwise.

Same reason they gave summoner two pets, though that I could have lived without.

A good fighter on the ground was always better than the minions in my books.

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I would love to have the summoner again, with his own DU. They already told that you will have to buy the DLCs, what they can do is sell it like a bundle, if you buy the dlc you get the maps and the summoner, otherwise you dont have neither of them. Or make a way to unlock it.

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I don't think that the EV counts as the free DLC that was promised, they might push the summoner as that free DLC and avoid these issues.

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2 hours ago, chpoit said:

I don't think that the EV counts as the free DLC that was promised, they might push the summoner as that free DLC and avoid these issues.

It's not a dlc it's was made at the same time as survival and survival is base game and still they miss a lot of base game. Like mix mode so the game is strong not at it full and how can you make a dlc for a game it's only 90% done it's still early access they only don't call so no more 

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6 hours ago, kingdiamond1986 said:

It's not a dlc it's was made at the same time as survival and survival is base game and still they miss a lot of base game. Like mix mode so the game is strong not at it full and how can you make a dlc for a game it's only 90% done it's still early access they only don't call so no more 

If you're asking how someone could make a DLC for an unfinished game, just look at Ark:Survival Evolved, it got multiple DLCs and a side-game and it's still not finished.

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4 hours ago, chpoit said:

If you're asking how someone could make a DLC for an unfinished game, just look at Ark:Survival Evolved, it got multiple DLCs and a side-game and it's still not finished.

Ya but they say it's early access

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On 9/16/2020 at 2:17 PM, Fuzzyape said:

 People who weren't willing to buy him were at a significant disadvantage.

This is a cooperative game, not a competitive one, so no one is at a disadvantage, really.

 

On 9/19/2020 at 6:53 PM, Popfuse said:

I would hate to have a repeat of DD1 where it was "Buy summoner or never do late game content."

You also had to buy the late game content to beat it. Was it "pay to win"?

I don't think the price of the summoner DLC is an issue, every player who loves the game will buy all the characters, even the Barbarian. The issue is that the  use of MU would wreak the balance of the game.

I'm in favor of DU+MU, and I'd like that each achievement come in three flavours, normal, DU only and MU only. 3 times more trophies in the tavern!

And maybe new game modes like MU only and DU only which would give the same bonus as HC mode? So using the summoner all the time is not always the most efficient way to play....

(But there are so much more issues to solve with this game before adding the summoner....)

 

 

 

 

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On 9/20/2020 at 3:49 PM, Ryzours said:

You also had to buy the late game content to beat it. Was it "pay to win"?

That's a silly argument buying late game maps isn't pay to win. Doing other maps wouldn't give you an advantage over me it just gave you different content. It's the addition of the summoner affecting future and past maps that I have the problem with.

On 9/20/2020 at 3:49 PM, Ryzours said:

I don't think the price of the summoner DLC is an issue, every player who loves the game will buy all the characters, even the Barbarian.

It wasn't about the price of the summoner DLC. It was the summoner DLC itself. When the summoner was added content not intended for him was trivialized. And content with him in mind became much harder without him. Making the hero a must have for everything because like I said "Do you want twice as many towers or not?" Though I could also spin it in a negative way and say. "Do you want to buy the other half of your towers."

On 9/20/2020 at 3:49 PM, Ryzours said:

The issue is that the use of MU would wreak the balance of the game.

I agree. 

Edited by Popfuse
Clarifying thoughts.

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hey guys, im not joining the discussion, but keep in mind i want to say something here. 

right now almost everyone got like 7000/3000 end game stats ,  how the balance still left here? 

i think the balance adjust should be , after something launch.  MU+DU welcome, how about terrain unit, decoration unit, pet unit? this all can merge.

game is dying, boring, developer is ignoring, strategy is sharing, exploiting, stupid pet is giving, skin is also begging,

new map, new character is good but obviously they have no idea, they goes wrong and lost the north, 

greedy is the main point you still stay in the game, you want better gear, you want ridiculous stats right?

but unfortunately right now it is, without huge amount + rare prefix suffix, they are all same.

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Just throwing it out there, seeing as CG listened, or had it in mind anyway, and the Buff Beam became the Overclock beam. Maybe the Summoner won't come in wiht potentially game breaking SU\MU.

So if the Summoner arrives and if it shares DU perhaps the DU could get increased and a cap on number of any specific tower could be introduced, to avoid  DST or minon spamming.

So instead of DU being the only limiting factor a hero only has a maximum of x units of y towers per map.

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On 9/16/2020 at 8:17 AM, Fuzzyape said:

I never liked that the Summoner was mandatory for later maps or just faster progression while costing additional money. People who weren't willing to buy him were at a significant disadvantage. If he comes in for free I'm not against it.

Considering EV is free, its safe to assume most heroes will be free (Although if Rift Walker is added it may not be). Nothing official, just speculation.

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8 minutes ago, censingosprey21 said:

Considering EV is free, its safe to assume most heroes will be free (Although if Rift Walker is added it may not be). Nothing official, just speculation.

Oh you sweet summer child, how good would it be to be this much of an optimist I wonder.

 

Seriously though, I highly doubt future characters will be free. My guess as to why the EV was free was to get the "old" players to go "hey look, something I like" and bring them back at no cost to them.

Edited by chpoit

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Giving the summoner their own MU would be a fatal mistake.

Do you balance Massacre survival around only defense units, or DU and MU?

  • If you balance difficulty around only DU, congratulations! Use your summoner to effectively double your DU and easily win without any challenge at all.
  • If you balance difficulty around the presence of both DU and MU, congratulations! You are now absolutely 100% required to level up and play summoner. If you don't, you're gimping yourself by not using half of your available DU.

In DDE, minions used DU, and they were still used in almost every build. Aside from that, I can understand and appreciate what the summoner has to offer, but I would much rather have a net-new hero instead of the third rehash of the same hero.

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On 9/27/2020 at 8:43 AM, gigazelle said:

Giving the summoner their own MU would be a fatal mistake.

I still disagree.

Characters had attacks on two fronts. Towers and character attacks.

The summoner only had "Towers" and had to remain in the game to make use of them. Without the ability to fight, you gave up a good attacker to have the summoner use minions.

If a team had a summoner and the other characters build all the towers, the Summoner is now useless. By giving them their own points it allowed them to be useful through out the game to promote their unique rts play style.

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1 hour ago, LemonyNebula said:

The summoner only had "Towers" and had to remain in the game to make use of them. Without the ability to fight, you gave up a good attacker to have the summoner use minions.

I could see this is you were forced to stick with one hero, but since you can change, it doesn't really make them any different than any other character you've geared for building.  You can build all your minions and switch to a DPS hero.  Although, if you really wanted to, pets can be decent DPS weapons.  Just look at the Massacre threads talking about Squire tank.

Also, the summoner can phase out of combat, so they can avoid all damage while easily moving around the map.  Sure, it's pretty limited to specifically being a builder, but then again the Barbarian was specifically limited to being a DPS hero.

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2 hours ago, Batophobia said:

I could see this is you were forced to stick with one hero, but since you can change, it doesn't really make them any different than any other character you've geared for building.  You can build all your minions and switch to a DPS hero.  Although, if you really wanted to, pets can be decent DPS weapons.  Just look at the Massacre threads talking about Squire tank.

Also, the summoner can phase out of combat, so they can avoid all damage while easily moving around the map.  Sure, it's pretty limited to specifically being a builder, but then again the Barbarian was specifically limited to being a DPS hero.

But the fact the summoner could control the battlefield by moving the minions around meant that it was worth having him out in place of another character. Without doing so, other characters towers normally were just better outright, so when making the summoner's points use the same points as other towers, it makes more sense to just bypass summoner completley in favour of other towers. This meant sacrificing hero DPS for minions.

The Barbarian was limited to being a DPS hero, but dealt much larger damage at no cost to other characters. So why would one character have a sacrifice and a replacement that costs nothing more, where as another character (the summoner) has to sacrifice their own DPS for minions, only to then be limited by everyone elses tower count.

The phasing out of combat made no difference other than allow more tower control. I don't think Summoner really needed two pets though as I always found that counter to the sacrifice.

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3 hours ago, LemonyNebula said:

I still disagree.

Characters had attacks on two fronts. Towers and character attacks.

The summoner only had "Towers" and had to remain in the game to make use of them. Without the ability to fight, you gave up a good attacker to have the summoner use minions.

If a team had a summoner and the other characters build all the towers, the Summoner is now useless. By giving them their own points it allowed them to be useful through out the game to promote their unique rts play style.

The summoner had two pet slots, allowing him to double up on dps pets.  So saying he only had towers isn't particularly correct.

MU would only be acceptable if the minions despawned if you swapped out of the summoner, otherwise it's just another stacked layer of terrible balance.

Make it tied to the hero mana rather than build mana, and I'd be down with it.  Something like each minion costing 5-10 mana, which reduces your maximum mana pool by that amount, making you choose between active abilities and more mana.  I don't think it would be healthy for the game to add in another layer of building points that end up becoming required to progress.

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