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Fozzie

Pretty much played out, time to have a break

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So we got our EV and this switched things up and run a few massacre survivals and now have a set of lvl 100 heroes.

Whilst you could go on grinding just sitting on a tower stack either boosting towers, boosting heroes or dpsing is kind of tedious.

IMO the RNG is too high and the drops on wave 25 and the end game chest can many times be a massive disappointment.

This was fixed in DD2 with guaranteed x number of legendaries from a multiplayer chest. I know everyone is running wave 23 starts now so it's not a huge amount of time but it's still demotivating to get crap from the final wave.

So I'll take a break until the next major update.

GL grinding for those that don't mind the monotony

 

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My main issue is the the waves take too long. It took me over three hours to complete alch labs from 1 to 25. Maybe my gear is just bad, but still.

I didn't mind spending 3 hours in a map in DD1, but that was because we had endless and I was trying to get further. I wasn't getting to wave 21 and telling myself, "welp, completed 21, now lets do it 4 more times because they decided to make all the last waves completely identical"

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Yeah, think I'm with you. But not likely to come back with a new patch if I do quit for now. This patch really played out quickly. On launch day, it looked like it might have challenge and a sense of progression. But that was just until you got your EVs leveled up, and then it became obvious massacre was just designed around the EV and, like nightmare, is too easy. Hard to see why I would want to spend hour after hour sitting on a tower stack, mostly doing nothing, hoping the RNG gods bless me with a phenomenal giraffe or an occasional armor upgrade.

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My main issue is more around the grind in general.  I'm in the "skill gameplay" camp (rather than the "grind gameplay" camp).  I want a challenge that isn't just the previous challenge I completed made a little extra difficult.  I could play this game on insane / nightmare, but once I've beaten that, I'm out.  The strategy and creativity goes out the window at that point and I'm just wasting time trying to make my build 100% efficient and get the best gear I can so my builds don't need to be efficient. There lies the issue, this game is designed to be self-defeating.  You are needing to be efficient, creative, and skillful, but eventually you don't need to be because you are super strong, so you just build and AFK or DPS mindlessly.

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13 minutes ago, papafhill said:

My main issue is more around the grind in general.  I'm in the "skill gameplay" camp (rather than the "grind gameplay" camp).

It's more than skill vs. grind I think. What has become clear, and very disappointing is that there seems to be no purpose to the grind. I'm aware there are some gamers out there that just like grind for grind's sake, but for many of us, it's just not enough. Grinding better equipment needs to have a purpose, it should be to allow you to complete more difficult maps that would not be possible without equipment upgrades. And that's what seems to be entirely missing here. There's no progression. There's no need to grind gear in act 1 maps, so you can move on to act 2, then act 3. They're all the same. So you just run whatever random map you feel like, get your upgrades, level up your EVs. Pretty quickly you reach a power point where you just steamroll everything and then that's it, that's  the game.

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i have 7.5k stats now , when i started massacre survival i had 2.5k  and i had fun doing every map early and the game is good for me now and iam still having real fun soloing everything start wave 23 , people will always complain you can't make everyone happy , i still want more to do don't get me wrong but i know it's console time 

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6 hours ago, Rikleman said:

Grinding better equipment needs to have a purpose, it should be to allow you to complete more difficult maps that would not be possible without equipment upgrades.

That really is why a lot of us play the game for a few dozen hours, then quit.  We like that progression at the start, but for me it is just dull once the grind starts.  The more I've played games, the more I can tell when the grind will begin so I play even less time.  Like Diablo 3, if I get stuck on some grindy part, I'm done.  It is only the first 70 GR levels that I like to play because getting the loot and making new builds are fun, it feels like progress.  Once I have to grind GR 70 for a new primal item to replace an ancient item I already have, I'm out.  Same with DDA.  I've beaten nightmare, so I'm done.

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7 hours ago, Rikleman said:

It's more than skill vs. grind I think. What has become clear, and very disappointing is that there seems to be no purpose to the grind. I'm aware there are some gamers out there that just like grind for grind's sake, but for many of us, it's just not enough. Grinding better equipment needs to have a purpose, it should be to allow you to complete more difficult maps that would not be possible without equipment upgrades. And that's what seems to be entirely missing here. There's no progression. There's no need to grind gear in act 1 maps, so you can move on to act 2, then act 3. They're all the same. So you just run whatever random map you feel like, get your upgrades, level up your EVs. Pretty quickly you reach a power point where you just steamroll everything and then that's it, that's  the game.

Exact same issue with DD2...

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It is kinda interesting, how the opinions on this topic already differ after a few posts. The first 2 posts here are talking about the grind being "too tedious", "too long", so basically too much. Others find the content/progression to easy/fast. It is impossible to make everyone happy in this regard, because some like the grind much more than others do.

In my opinion, the Massacre Survival progression was really good this time. It took me a good while (and over 20 campaign summit runs to get a single (!) Speedy Gemstone to even get started...) to reach a state, where I can beat Glitter afk solo starting at wave 23. I have to say, I slowed myself down on purpose; I enjoyed the content this time. I did not compensate the lack of my build quality or stats by using massive amounts of hero DPS (you could also say I mainly used an (afk-)towerboosting monk... ;) ). I could have rushed it much more, but I set myself the rule to always complete (or reach the boss stage of) a map solo first, before playing it in public groups. I overfarmed the ealier maps a bit before progressing and I also upgraded my builder gear very late (starting at act 3). Sure, I could have rushed the content and blazed through it much faster, I guess. But that would not have been as much fun then.

In general, it also makes a big differences if you play this game solo, duo or in a full group of 4 players. Before they adjusted the spawn-rates of special mobs for 1, 2 and 3 players with the latest hotfix, I would definitely say that playing the game in a group of 4 is the easiest approach. The focus has already been shifted more towards hero damage and stacking buffs is just extremely powerful (one squire tank, one boost monk, on Huntress with a cat and another one with a genie just amplifies the damage output and versitility so much compared to a single character). So playing this game with a half-way organized group can quickly give you the impression, that the game is way too easy.

 

But what this game really needs is an endless survival mode. Basically the current survival mode without an end at wave 25. There are too approaches, that I could imagine:

  • 1. The difficulty is getting harder and harder and the loot becomes only a tiny bit better - or in other words, the difficulty will eventually outscale the stats. If you put the effort in to reach the highest possible waves, you will end up with slightly better gear, serving as a good motivation. This is more of a competitve approach.
  • 2. The difficulty is getting harder and harder, but the max loot quality increases only up to the current max quality. Just the min loot quality is getting higher. This would mean, that you could also farm other maps than Glitter to get the best drops. You would just have to play Deeper Well wave 70 to get the same loot as Glitter 25. And due to the min loot quality getting better, you would not have to do multiple boring wave 23-25 runs, but you could push high and you would see much more interesting drops at those higher waves. This is more of a quality of life approach (you do not have to set up quick 23-25 runs all the time but you can just continue, you can farm other maps, you can reduce the amount of grind, if you put in a lot of effort into a single, longer run and so on).

Besides those details, an endless survival mode would extend the endgame content so much and would give the (endgame) gear farming a purpose. So far they more or less copied DD1 with the addition of Massacre. But I think the game has reached a solid foundation now, where you could actually try to extend it with new stuff and ideas, instead of just adding more of the old content (Shard maps, Crystalline Dimension, Summoner...).

Edited by The Ich
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3 hours ago, The Ich said:

It is kinda interesting, how the opinions on this topic already differ after a few posts. The first 2 posts here are talking about the grind being "too tedious", "too long", so basically too much. Others find the content/progression to easy/fast. It is impossible to make everyone happy in this regard, because some like the grind much more than others do.

In my opinion, the Massacre Survival progression was really good this time. It took me a good while (and over 20 campaign summit runs to get a single (!) Speedy Gemstone to even get started...) to reach a state, where I can beat Glitter afk solo starting at wave 23. I have to say, I slowed myself down on purpose; I enjoyed the content this time. I did not compensate the lack of my build quality or stats by using massive amounts of hero DPS (you could also say I mainly used an (afk-)towerboosting monk... ;) ). I could have rushed it much more, but I set myself the rule to always complete (or reach the boss stage of) a map solo first, before playing it in public groups. I overfarmed the ealier maps a bit before progressing and I also upgraded my builder gear very late (starting at act 3). Sure, I could have rushed the content and blazed through it much faster, I guess. But that would not have been as much fun then.

In general, it also makes a big differences if you play this game solo, duo or in a full group of 4 players. Before they adjusted the spawn-rates of special mobs for 1, 2 and 3 players with the latest hotfix, I would definitely say that playing the game in a group of 4 is the easiest approach. The focus has already been shifted more towards hero damage and stacking buffs is just extremely powerful (one squire tank, one boost monk, on Huntress with a cat and another one with a genie just amplifies the damage output and versitility so much compared to a single character). So playing this game with a half-way organized group can quickly give you the impression, that the game is way too easy.

 

But what this game really needs is an endless survival mode. Basically the current survival mode without an end at wave 25. There are too approaches, that I could imagine:

  • 1. The difficulty is getting harder and harder and the loot becomes only a tiny bit better - or in other words, the difficulty will eventually outscale the stats. If you put the effort in to reach the highest possible waves, you will end up with slightly better gear, serving as a good motivation. This is more of a competitve approach.
  • 2. The difficulty is getting harder and harder, but the max loot quality increases only up to the current max quality. Just the min loot quality is getting higher. This would mean, that you could also farm other maps than Glitter to get the best drops. You would just have to play Deeper Well wave 70 to get the same loot as Glitter 25. And due to the min loot quality getting better, you would not have to do multiple boring wave 23-25 runs, but you could push high and you would see much more interesting drops at those higher waves. This is more of a quality of life approach (you do not have to set up quick 23-25 runs all the time but you can just continue, you can farm other maps, you can reduce the amount of grind, if you put in a lot of effort into a single, longer run and so on).

Besides those details, an endless survival mode would extend the endgame content so much and would give the (endgame) gear farming a purpose. So far they more or less copied DD1 with the addition of Massacre. But I think the game has reached a solid foundation now, where you could actually try to extend it with new stuff and ideas, instead of just adding more of the old content (Shard maps, Crystalline Dimension, Summoner...).

Endless survival like DD1 pirate map will be very cool with high accessories . i think they will release mix mode with console update with higher gears tho

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im enjoying part of the grind the rewards though are not there yet for me gear is fairly hard to find upgrades once u get outa the first few maps understandable but an sometimes go 12 runs without seeing something worth while ( none of my chars are anywhere near fully end game geared my munk being the closest at 2 400 up peaces and a nice 7.5k power ).

boss loot theres a whole new issue there with the quality the range is waaay to big exsample below of a wave 25 pet reward from a boss that shouldnt even be a thing id be anoyed getting it at wave 15 let alone wave 25 of mass survival

mafT5jD.png

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4 hours ago, The Ich said:

It is impossible to make everyone happy

This is probably the most toxic and insulting comment that happens so frequently on this forum.  (Sorry Ich, this isn't to attack you, it is to point this out as an example)  It lacks any emotional intelligence, because it is basically saying, "everyone else is wrong and their input isn't valid."  It is akin to telling someone, "I'm sorry you feel that way," which is actually an insult masked as an apology.  Simply put, your happiness doesn't invalidate other's concerns.

Perhaps I should make a post about it...

4 hours ago, The Ich said:

[ The rest of what you said ]

I appreciate the endless mentality (I personally like Diablo 3's Greater Rifts).  However, it doesn't solve any underlying issue.  Why create an endless mode when you can just make the next difficulty mode up from Massacre?  Also, the current gear lacks any differentiation, so doing this doesn't enhance the grind at all, it just prolongs it.  In Diablo 3, you have a plethora of legendary gear you are trying to find, and even finding one sub-par item that has a superior legendary effect means you could fly through the next Rift levels with some ease until you hit the next grind point.

Also, the better loot has to scale somewhat with the difficulty.  If the loot isn't noticeably better, then interest will die out quickly.

As for me, I'd rather see more progression built into the hero / tower side of things, not the level design / enemy difficulty side.  Why don't towers have a progression tree and skill slots (passive aura buffs, active DPS skills, et al)?  Why don't heroes gain "Momentum" ranks the more enemies they kill in combat, which only lasts for the duration of that map?  Why isn't there a special build phase merchant selling items that might give me an edge in the next wave?  These types of "out of the box" features are what I'm going to look for in the new game before ever spending another penny on CG.

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10 hours ago, The Ich said:

In my opinion, the Massacre Survival progression was really good this time. It took me a good while (and over 20 campaign summit runs to get a single (!) Speedy Gemstone to even get started...) to reach a state, where I can beat Glitter afk solo starting at wave 23. I have to say, I slowed myself down on purpose;

Honestly, just think about what you're saying. AFK the last map, starting at wave 23. We're barely two weeks into this so called major content patch, and it's over already. That's it, that's the game. And as far as progression, it doesn't get harder as you move from act 1 to act 2 to act 3, and you don't need increasingly powerful equipment to progress. Royal gardens is easier than ancient mines. 

So, in that context, what do you mean progression was really good? That's your idea of well implemented progression for a major content patch? No progression from easier to harder, just playing maps at random, and over in a couple weeks of casual playing? You're not really going to log in each night just to AFK for an hour and hope you end your AFK session with a slightly better giraffe are you?

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30 minutes ago, Rikleman said:

 

So, in that context, what do you mean progression was really good? That's your idea of well implemented progression for a major content patch? No progression from easier to harder, just playing maps at random, and over in a couple weeks of casual playing? You're not really going to log in each night just to AFK for an hour and hope you end your AFK session with a slightly better giraffe are you?

Dunno what your problem is, I actually had to work my way up from ancient mines, alch lab, magus quarters all the way until glitterhelm caverns. You slowly but surely progressed and that's the whole concept.

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I am not done until I check all of the MHC boxes, so I do all of the maps in MHC survival.  I am going to assumed I am not very good because I progress a lot more slowly then people say they are here.

Edited by herbapou

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22 hours ago, papafhill said:

Also, the better loot has to scale somewhat with the difficulty.  If the loot isn't noticeably better, then interest will die out quickly.

This is only true if you are focused on the looter aspect of the game.  There's plenty of Tower Defense games where the point of an endless mode is purely to test your build and see how far you can go.

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Well I am not sure if I am noob or something here, but I play whole time solo. First i need to complete every map solo and then i will join groups for XP and to get some farm.

I play DD franchise for many many years and I do not think that massacre either campaign or survival is easy. It was very challenging for me mainly Summit on campaign before 1.1 and also now survival to beat Demon lord is not piece of cake man. Not after nerf.

Look at the playerbase - I think like 80 percent are below Massacre difficulty and most of hosted games are Alchemy labs or Royal Gardens. So clearly you are a small percentage of high tier players - who probably invested enormous amount of time to master this game.

You have to look at it from both sides - for some people who are talented on this type of games or just spend enough time figuring things out it is easy and no matter what Chromatic do it will be easy for you.

If there will be endless system something like Onslaught in DD2 you can proove everyone how good you are, until then it will be easy content because you mastered the aspects of game.

So my end point is 

- For some people this game is easy but it is usually very small percentage of player base - for others its hard man, look at the steam forum or discord what kind of elementary questions people ask. Its completely normal. 

 

Cheers

 

 

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