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Lets talk about sirens

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I want to talk about sirens. Im pretty split between my like/dislike for them right now. and would love to hear more opinions on them, what you like or what youd change.

What i Like:

- Loot pinata

An idea you see in many games, and i love it every time i see it. It makes them high priority, its exciting to see them when you spawn, and it helps speed up the loot grind just a bit. ( although the loot they drop in high massacre survival waves dont seem very good to me yet).

- Elemental immunity

This mechanic just adds more difficulty but in a solid, healthy way. It make sirens dangerous to keep alive, and mobs that are given those immunities become a big threat. It encourages you to try to build with more diversity, and more strategy.

- How tanky they are/How hard they hit

As a DD2 player something i really appreciated was the diversity in the mini-bosses. Having just the ogres be the only tanky, mini-boss like mob was sad to see for me. So sirens being slightly less tanky, but fast and a powerful ranged threat is a nice compliment with ogres.

What i dislike:

- Towers can't target

This is probably my biggest complaint, i cant say i fully enjoy the idea of a mob that cant be damaged by towers, in a tower defense game. While i definitely understand the idea, that it brings more difficulty and adds more interaction (similarly to DD2s goblin roller mini-boss) - the fact that it requires Hero Dps really turns me off from the idea, and makes me feel sorry for the people who treat this purely as a tower defense game. The fact that sirens come out with an immunity to something, which could completely counter certain defenses ( if towers could target them), would still make sirens a huge threat ( specifically physical and poison sirens which are already wave ending threats). And given how tanky they are i think this mechanic could still add challenge, while not restricting play styles.

- Immunities last till death

Earlier i mentioned i really like the immunity mechanic, and i do. But i dont like the fact that they last till death. Specifically on Ogres, since if your playing solo with a fire elemental monk, and a fire siren comes out and triggers on those 3 ogres on your walls. You now have 3 Bullet sponges that youl have to sit down and slowly whittle down, or wait till they despawn ( its even worse for physical immunity since Deadly striker tower damage gets nerfed to). It also gives them no direct counters, when in combination with towers not being able to effect sirens mechanic that i mentioned above. Having the immunity go away either on a timer, or when the siren dies/despawns itself, would help this a lot. Also the new obsidian pet could become a niche counter as well.

- The randomess

overall, i feel like the sirens could be slightly more polished in this department. They add a randomness to every map which i both like and dislike. On one hand it does require you to put much more effort, specifically when your just entering Massacre, which adds an intensity during the campaign that really brightens up the game and feels rewarding. But in survival, when there is many more mobs, and already feels like a Mess just trying to keep up with the Djinn, spiders, Dark elves, and Ogres at late waves - It adds this uncontrollable and un-counterable mechanic that makes it even more of a mess, it doesn't feel nearly as rewarding, with the loot drops not being particularly great, but mainly because of the sheer amount of sirens that come out. 

It makes the experience of a Siren less "Yes! A loot pinata i cant wait to break open for goodies" and more " oh my god ANOTHER poison Siren please stop coming out", which isn't the reaction i feel like sirens deserve considering the core idea, and great design they've been given. I personally hope something is tweaked with sirens in survival, especially for solo players.

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i can agree with immunities until Death and Random Because no one love to relay on RNG on strategy game
But Tower Can't Target Them is Very imbortant and good thing and i wish it stays that way forever

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I like the points you raise.

 

The siren essentially means that there shouldn't even be an option for a hybrid or builder character.  Because you're just shooting yourself in the foot by doing so.  A character like the siren works in DD2, because DD2 allows you to split your hero and tower stats on different gearslots completely.  It's also severely limiting in solo play.  You either have someone who can't address some of the random sirens that spawn because of the element you have, or you have a dps huntress and that's your only active hero.

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Posted (edited)

I think siren immunity should be changed to either one of those:

  • It goes away instantly 10-20 seconds after a siren is killed (no dice if it runs away)
  • The immunity is a 20 second buff that refreshes when in a certain radius around the Siren and it ticks down once out of range.
  • I does not affect ogres (or much less)
  • When in range of the siren mobs get the full 90%, when out of it it goes down to 30%, or reduces based on distance (might be computationally intensive, so I'd rather not considering current performance)

Right now, just as you said, they are more of a pain than anything. You could get only electric sirens and have a good time, or end up with only poison and wanting to die.

Edited by chpoit
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For me the sirens are just a immunity bot. They don't drop much better gear anymore so killing them is usually not needed. Only on some maps where I can afk sit behind reflect beams and where the sirens come directly infront of me do I ever kill them. On alch labs for example I couldn't be bothered to kill them since there's no incentive at all. Especially when climbing a new map on survival you couldn't care less about the sirens. You just want to progress to the next wave and if you have to ignore the sirens to do so you will gladly do it.

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my biggest dislike for sirens is the rng of them and the ability they have to make u lose games one pysical resist  theres ur towers locked up tickling mobs one poision theres half ur cc  doing nothing  lightning and fire i have no issues with  literaly the only thing stoping me from beating maps is the sirens all my builders are 5.5k  atleast  in mainstat and a cupple are at 3k in secondary stats so i have the stats just rng sirens really have to bite my tounge when i talk about them as the amount of swear words that come out when they ruin me is nuts 

RNG should never cost u a game thats just not cool

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I like that I’m forced to quickly decide what to do with them, and that leaving them alone is an option.  An option with negative consequences, but an option nonetheless.  If players had no choice but to kill them, I would like them a lot less than I do.

I like how hard they hit, and I like that reflect beams can be used to mitigate that.

I think there should be an achievement for killing 10,000 of them.  Yes, I said 10,000.

I’d like to see their presence in the game become part of the ongoing storyline later on.  It would be cool (to me) if at some point down the road, we learn that Sirens are just the corrupted victims of DDA’s endgame villain, and that she is somehow rescued by our heroes and unlocked as a playable character (the Gunwitch is the first thing that comes to mind) after beating the endgame content.

I agree in fundamental concept with everything stated by the OP.  I think that a fun way to counteract those instances where you get ogre DPS sponges and make the DPS apprentice viable again would be to have one (I mean it, just one) weapon that can be upgraded in fire and poison and electric at the same time (not physical too, that seems too overpowered).  I would make that an apprentice-only (sorry EV, you can’t have it) staff similar to the old Oculus of the Genie King.  6 projectiles, tight pattern, a Siren-hunting machine.

The one thing I’d have done differently is that I would have limited the number of sirens that appear in any given wave, and I would have bumped up their health significantly as waves pass in survival, for example.  The spawning of each one should remain special, something to pay attention to and think about.  For me the best way to do that is have fewer of them, but they then have more health and do more damage.

Overall, I like it.  I like the 1.1 content in general.  I’m now newly-motivated again to get my team to level 90 so I can start making a real dent in massacre.  I’ve played… oh, dear.  That can’t be right.

… 74 hours in the last 2 weeks?

Great question!

 

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Posted (edited)

I might be the only one by the sounds of it but I hate sirens and Massacre in general. I love DD for tower defence and even with mobs like the DRaken Lord and Seige Roller  in DD2 there were still ways u could deal with them by using towers alone - (Rollers shoot them from behind, drakenlord throw an oil geyser and flame aura). Sirens as they are turn DDA into some ARPG looter shooter type game. I have all but lost what little faith I have had in this game from when I backed during KS, I do have to wonder who this game is aimed at? Just 2.3% of players have even completed Massacre campaign and yet quite a few of those 2% sit and complain how easy the game is so we just ignore the other 98%? Is 2% of players enough to keep this game afloat? I dont think so. DD games to me other than in certain challenges or modes gave u a choice do u want to rely on towers or rely on DPS, thee were always many approaches that worked depending on your playstyle Massacre just removes so many of them even more than Chaos did in DD2. If they made it so that if and when Siren dies/flees her buff goes with it it might make it allitle less frustrating for those of us who prefer towers over dps. Im still persisting atm after investing so much time and money into the game, but I am so close to clicking uninstall until CG realise that people outwith the hardcore elitist 1% of players exist.

Edited by dizzydiana
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15 minutes ago, dizzydiana said:

I might be the only one by the sounds of it but I hate sirens and Massacre in general. I love DD for tower defence and even with mobs like the DRaken Lord and Seige Roller  in DD2 there were still ways u could deal with them by using towers alone - (Rollers shoot them from behind, drakenlord throw an oil geyser and flame aura). Sirens as they are turn DDA into some ARPG looter shooter type game. I have all but lost what little faith I have had in this game from when I backed during KS, I do have to wonder who this game is aimed at? Just 2.3% of players have even completed Massacre campaign and yet quite a few of those 2% sit and complain how easy the game is so we just ignore the other 98%? Is 2% of players enough to keep this game afloat? I dont think so. DD games to me other than in certain challenges or modes gave u a choice do u want to rely on towers or rely on DPS, thee were always many approaches that worked depending on your playstyle Massacre just removes so many of them even more than Chaos did in DD2. If they made it so that if and when Siren dies/flees her buff goes with it it might make it allitle less frustrating for those of us who prefer towers over dps. Im still persisting atm after investing so much time and money into the game, but I am so close to clicking uninstall until CG realise that people outwith the hardcore elitist 1% of players exist.

You're not the only one on this.  The game is being damaged because of some really significant details relating to what you brought up, I just didn't think this was the right thread to do it in.  I had been thinking on a major overhaul of the game that would make it a lot more engaging, but I haven't really posted it because there is a very strong opposition to changing things from the original.

 

Going back to the topic of sirens, I don't think they're healthy for the game.  With every new difficulty tier, more and more towers become practically worthless.  Apprentice towers are barely standing on their feet and that's only because the buff beam exists.  Right now, we're at a point where it's just buff beamed traps and auras, because everything else just isn't worth it.  You know, unless you're using gear easily gained from earlier exploits where your stats are in the 5k range, then yeah you can do whatever you want.  Good luck to new players who didn't have that advantage.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Valthejean said:

You're not the only one on this.  The game is being damaged because of some really significant details relating to what you brought up, I just didn't think this was the right thread to do it in.  I had been thinking on a major overhaul of the game that would make it a lot more engaging, but I haven't really posted it because there is a very strong opposition to changing things from the original.

 

Going back to the topic of sirens, I don't think they're healthy for the game.  With every new difficulty tier, more and more towers become practically worthless.  Apprentice towers are barely standing on their feet and that's only because the buff beam exists.  Right now, we're at a point where it's just buff beamed traps and auras, because everything else just isn't worth it.  You know, unless you're using gear easily gained from earlier exploits where your stats are in the 5k range, then yeah you can do whatever you want.  Good luck to new players who didn't have that advantage.

I might be in the minroty , but I'd prefer the Harbinger mobs from DD1/DDE over the sirens they did add seriously difficulty but you still had a choice in how to tackle them. If we must stick to DD1 theme bring this guy and put him into Massacre and remove the dumb siren. As you said this might not be the best thread to discuss changes, but I dont see any real reason not to discuss alternatives that also bring in a difficulty spike.

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Edited by dizzydiana
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27 minutes ago, dizzydiana said:

I might be the only one by the sounds of it but I hate sirens and Massacre in general. I love DD for tower defence and even with mobs like the DRaken Lord and Seige Roller  in DD2 there were still ways u could deal with them by using towers alone - (Rollers shoot them from behind, drakenlord throw an oil geyser and flame aura). Sirens as they are turn DDA into some ARPG looter shooter type game. I have all but lost what little faith I have had in this game from when I backed during KS, I do have to wonder who this game is aimed at? Just 2.3% of players have even completed Massacre campaign and yet quite a few of those 2% sit and complain how easy the game is so we just ignore the other 98%? Is 2% of players enough to keep this game afloat? I dont think so. DD games to me other than in certain challenges or modes gave u a choice do u want to rely on towers or rely on DPS, thee were always many approaches that worked depending on your playstyle Massacre just removes so many of them even more than Chaos did in DD2. If they made it so that if and when Siren dies/flees her buff goes with it it might make it allitle less frustrating for those of us who prefer towers over dps. Im still persisting atm after investing so much time and money into the game, but I am so close to clicking uninstall until CG realise that people outwith the hardcore elitist 1% of players exist.

far from alone in hating them a mob that cant be damaged by towers ina tower defence game just isnt right

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I have to say I also dislike the siren.

I play most time solo and you can't kill 8 chopper and have to watch 4 lane for Poison siren and watch the oger and in the boss lvl the boss and over time you get new siren and oger and then I fail. 

And ya you have die hard players but I only can play 2 or 4 hours a week so 

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Towers should damage the sirens, it's completely illogical to not have them being damged in some way by them. It's a sloppy anti-afk mechanic.

NIghtmare was fun when you started breaking into it but Massacre was just a ball ache. Back pre 1.1 you had your squire dragon combo, now since that's been nerfed its camp behind a reflect and just shoot. Massacre is tedious

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