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I hope the Summoner/Demoness comes back soon


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Hopefully when things settle down they will be added in dlc.

They were the best and so versatile. If I wanted walls I could make minion walls, if I wanted AA and crowd control I had my archers, if my defenses were losing health I could do an AOE heal. If I wanted to just fly around and chill in another dimension I could. 

Most importantly who could forget his amazing ability to place units across the map with out, it was a ton of fun.

Now I don’t expect them to come back with their seperate minion units again, but this game is lacking so much depth and strategy right now. Going back to the base 4 Heroes meta is so limited and frankly boring. Just being honest. Sure the game launched with more than DD1 did,but you can add a ton of maps and nothing will change, we need different ways to build and new enemies to break the meta to keep things fresh.

You had plans of a new hero called rift walker. This sounds like a watered down summoner and we all know how well that turned out with the Abyss Lord in DD2.  Just bring back the original and the best character along with tougher new enemies and then we can start seeing this game grow.

Edited by KnowsNoLimits
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2 hours ago, KnowsNoLimits said:

Sure the game launched with more than DD1 did,but you can add a ton of maps and nothing will change, we need different ways to build and new enemies to break the meta to keep things fresh.

The the Summoner isn't the answer, since just like the O.G. 4 heroes, they were played in DD1.  If you want new, then they would need to make a new hero.

Personally, I like the new maps.  I'd be stoked if Summoner and EV made a comeback, but any DLC stuff is likely to be good.

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11 hours ago, Batophobia said:

The the Summoner isn't the answer, since just like the O.G. 4 heroes, they were played in DD1.  If you want new, then they would need to make a new hero.

Personally, I like the new maps.  I'd be stoked if Summoner and EV made a comeback, but any DLC stuff is likely to be good.

I disagree. This game is supposed to be a superior version to dd1 and in order for that to be achieved we should have the characters we are familiar with to come back as well as introducing new characters and enemies as the game develops. New maps aren’t going to enhance the gameplay, new enemies and heroes will change the meta and keep things fresh.

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New maps can offer new builds using existing towers, since mobs can come from different angles and cores are in different spots.  Also, new maps tend to be come "the" map to farm to get the best items.

New enemies can also change up the meta, as was seen in DD1 at the introduction of spiders, djinn, sharken, and copters.

Obviously, new heroes will be exciting and change up the game regardless of if they are returning or brand new.

7 hours ago, KnowsNoLimits said:

This game is supposed to be a superior version to dd1

I don't know that it is.  I think the intent was to make something familiar as a new studio working with a new technology.  That something looks similar to DD1, but has some changes.  Obvious changes like new maps, but also functional changes like hero decks, shared XP, and giving mana directly to heroes at the start of build phase.  Sure those are mostly QoL changes, but they affect how you play between DD1 and DDA.  Oh, and double jumps.  Love the double jumps.

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  • 1 year later...

 

On 5/31/2020 at 8:39 PM, Batophobia said:

New maps can offer new builds using existing towers, since mobs can come from different angles and cores are in different spots.  Also, new maps tend to be come "the" map to farm to get the best items.

New enemies can also change up the meta, as was seen in DD1 at the introduction of spiders, djinn, sharken, and copters.

Obviously, new heroes will be exciting and change up the game regardless of if they are returning or brand new.

I don't know that it is.  I think the intent was to make something familiar as a new studio working with a new technology.  That something looks similar to DD1, but has some changes.  Obvious changes like new maps, but also functional changes like hero decks, shared XP, and giving mana directly to heroes at the start of build phase.  Sure those are mostly QoL changes, but they affect how you play between DD1 and DDA.  Oh, and double jumps.  Love the double jumps.

To answer this "intent"

 This game is "REWORKED" in complete system, look, gameplay, Ai.
So anything made is not exactly the same but should be, not 100% but should be intended to be a BETTER version

(Bad example) but wow classic added Dungeon finder and quest helper when it wasnt in the first game...

this game should add MORE maps and i really mean like those challange runs for specific weapons that are "Locked LOOT" to specific maps, more champions such as summoner (extra summons limit), more diversity and MOST IMPORTANT god damn anhcors!. Anchor the loot, anchor the limits so you're stuck sometimes! not have everything in your hands and freely move about to massacre with 50 stat gear on level 50 -_- i played dd1 on my laptop y-day whilst playing dda on my main pc it was sooo diffrent, as in DDA is easy (i just played warden and won every map). 

I understand this is my opinion, and i love hearing people's thoughts and opinions.

But.... i also do hope they don't add any kind of DLC's like in DD1, because it should not be for sale to get locked Weapons, Level Cap, Exp, Gear, Difficulty, Pets.

But bring back SUMMONER! :D i love the new class too, DHunter/Barb/Rogue

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At best we'll probably get a "reworked" version of the Abyss Lord from DD2, as he's sort of the Summoner's counterpart. Given how the Episode's work, he'll be 1 of the 2 heroes in one of them.

I have a feeling EVA's conception was beyond a time they had plans for the Episodes, so she's an outlier in terms of their new system. She was so popular anyway it would've been a tragedy if she didn't come back nearly the same. 

And lastly, DLC for new maps and weapons will be free (the Episodes), and I have a feeling any dlc we get will be similar to the current stuff, cosmetic unlocks for transmogs, or maybe even bonus maps that don't completely alter the flow of progression.

Edit: I want to clarify that I agree, I want summoner back just as much as you. He was my favorite hero of them all and I loved playing him. However I do understand he's on a very thin line between OK and Overpowered,(IE becoming mandatory in every build because of his own Build units) so getting him in a good spot and still have his charm will be very difficult.

Edited by Fictorious

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  • 1 month later...

I joke a lot about needing the summoner, but to be honest, new characters would be as good, if not better. So I don't mind them not being added, even though I would still love to see them.

But here is where I feel the problem lies.

The Summoner was the biggest example of what made Dungeon Defenders great for me. They didn't just stop at the already interesting gameplay of boots on the ground action and tower defense, they actively chose yet another whole new genre (RTS) to add into the mix, which made the character incredibly unique to play.

A whole new view and a new control method. Basically moving towers at the cost of hero damage output. It changed so much gameplay wise for anyone actually playing the character instead of abusing what could potentially just amount to more tower slots.

I would easily argue that the original game didn't suffer from having Summoner, it benefitted from it. Hence so many begging for the character back. But Chromatic has made it very clear that they feel it was too imbalanced to add now, which is the only issue I have with the character not returning.

 To me it screams that any new characters are going to be, forgive me for saying,... bland.

I get that balance in games are important, but so many people in recent times think balance is always a middle ground where everything is the same, but that's simply not true. The act of something being more or less powerful than something else is just as integral to balance as keeping them the same as it should be based on what is fun to play.

There is too much restriction with this pure balance games go for nowdays. Like when a game has 50+ guns, and all that is different between them is a minor stat change to keep them "fair". It ruins any variety.

Another example is Magicka. That was a game where the whole purpose was risk reward. You played overpowered wizards that could be as much of an obstacle to themselves as they could the enemy. Sure you could run through the game cheesing it with bindings for strong spells and ignoring any risky ones, but your only self imposing balance issues. Play it normally and your "crash to desktop" power or meteor strike could hit you as much as it could the enemy for a more rewarding outcome.

They even tried to make a multiplayer one, balanced all the magic, made everything as strong as everything else with only rock paper scissors style elemental play and honestly I found it awful and ruined everything the original stood for.

Dungeon Defenders is not competitive but a coop game. A game where you should be able to play with different heroes the same way you can play with different difficulties. If people don't like a hard to balance character, lock the choice from the lobby or something. Anything is better than cutting any interesting content because it strays too far from the base formula.

I just think that the reluctance to add a character like summoner specifically "due to balance", or to even rebalance them, is a huge example of what I am not liking so much in the series now.

 

I mean honestly, I think I'm just too old. Everything is based on competitive play or social aspects, that the core gameplay fun seems to be dissapearing from so many games.

Have wacky characters, strong characters, weak characters. Just make them different. I don't really need summoner, I just need variety.

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On 10/15/2021 at 6:34 PM, LemonyNebula said:

Chromatic has made it very clear that they feel it was too imbalanced to add now, which is the only issue I have with the character not returning.

 To me it screams that any new characters are going to be, forgive me for saying,... bland.

...

Dungeon Defenders is not competitive but a coop game. A game where you should be able to play with different heroes the same way you can play with different difficulties.

I don't think the uniqueness of the Summoner was the problem.  The biggest issue is he has his own DU pool.  Now, every map needs to either be balanced off using double the map's DU (i.e. Summoner required to win) or the Summoner is ignored and any build that includes him gets an easy win.

Personally, I loved the Summoner for pretty much the same reasons you've mentioned, and I agree that any hero should be viable for any map, even if not optimal.  However, I don't think a single hero should be required for every map.

I'd love to see new characters, or even enemies, that add different genres to the mix.  The RTS format was a great addition and even if it's not the Summoner, it'd be cool to see return.

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On 10/22/2021 at 3:22 PM, Batophobia said:

I don't think the uniqueness of the Summoner was the problem.  The biggest issue is he has his own DU pool.  Now, every map needs to either be balanced off using double the map's DU (i.e. Summoner required to win) or the Summoner is ignored and any build that includes him gets an easy win.

Personally, I loved the Summoner for pretty much the same reasons you've mentioned, and I agree that any hero should be viable for any map, even if not optimal.  However, I don't think a single hero should be required for every map.

I'd love to see new characters, or even enemies, that add different genres to the mix.  The RTS format was a great addition and even if it's not the Summoner, it'd be cool to see return.

 

I do agree, and it is why I wouldn't ever want a map to be balanced to the strongest or weakest characters. It's okay to have some heroes make a level feel like easy mode, the same as it is having heroes which are more of a challenge to win with. But a character should never be "needed".

It should be on the players to decide if they want to meta game or power build their way to an easy win, or if they want to challenge themselves with self limitation. It's tiring knowing so many games get rebalanced because some players don't feel like they have enough self restraint to not abuse a system, and get annoyed when they choose to play the same way over and over again because they made it easy for themselves.

Say they complete a level easily using summoner. That's great... now try not using summoner, or don't hero swap. Add that challenge and you get the best of both worlds.

I understand it with competative games where every decision affects the competitors, but this isn't competative. Well, not beyond what people create for themselves at any rate.

 

I just worry that any addition that changes things up too much would be too hard to balance with the current restrictions. If a character is slightly too easy or difficult, then they wouldn't want to include them on the basis that people will make them "go to" characters or ignore them completely. And huge changes are hard to balance.

There are likely ways Summoner could be implemented that bypasses that MU pool, but chromatic clearly is still concerned about the difficulty of balancing it, as they mention. My fear is if they can't implement Summoner (Know that's different to just 'wont', as they have every right to choose the characters), then how would they make any other heroes with such drastic playstyle changes balanced enough?

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The last major release was a pretty extensive attempt at balancing gear.  Maybe we can be hopeful that they are up to the challenge of adding a hero with a drastically different playstyle.  They could even keep the Summoner with custom DU.  Make it so the towers phase out when he's not active so they basically act as RTS-style replacements of a damaging hero.  I'm sure there's a sweet spot for personal DU and non-damaging hero.

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