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ThingDoer

From Us, Your Defenders

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Starting a new thread since replies are locked on the new post. 

@[CG] LAWLTA, as a developer myself, I can appreciate that not every problem has a perfect solution.  I can also appreciate that it can be very difficult to create a product which satisfies everyone in all situations.  However your response seems to miss addressing one of the biggest concerns from the community, which is that we were specifically told there would NOT be a wipe just 20 days ago by Phillip in the Early Access forum post on the subject.  At the time of that post, there are two possibilities, either CG knew that profiles were going into legacy mode or you didn't.  If it was already known, why was it not communicated clearly at that time?  If it was not known, why were we not informed once the decision was made that resulted in Phillip's comment being untrue?

And yes, I acknowledge that this isn't exactly a wipe, but let's be honest here, it's tantamount to the same thing.

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It may as well be a wipe and you know what annoys me the most.

The simple lack of communication. You had plans to make this happen you gave the community no warning, that would have helped your cause and you know what else would have been a way to restore trust in your consumer base? 

Add something simple as a double exp event for the first 2 weeks  or you could have simply increased the exp gains in general for the full game. That way people can level up and get to where they were at a much faster pace.

You guys chose not to do any of these simple things, so the heat and lost of trust you have received is quite deserving.  
 

 

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I gotta agree with you guys. As a Game Dev as well, I hate to see this kind of stuff being pulled of. CG was not transparent with their decisions, and it went against what we were told. Sincerely, being moved to Legacy mode feels, for at least 90% of the player base the same as an effective wipe. I was going back to play since I got the emails with the new skin rewards and all only to find out about this.

 

Okay, as a coder I know how profiles can be messy and a lot of data importing if not very well tested could mean a lot of issues for a long time and headache. BUT, there are VARIOUS ways you guys could have gone with it. Even if just letting people keep their levels, for one. Copy only characters and levels into the new accounts. Do something that wouldnt feel like we lost all our progress over the past EA mode that WE WERE TOLD BY CG THAT WOULDNT HAPPEN.

 

Get real, CG, even as a Kickstarter from this game (a player from DD1 and all other games you guys have been making so far for around 8 years - Aug, 2012) I am very unhappy with the decision and might not give DD:A another go after this. Screwed up really bad with your player base this time.

 

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56 minutes ago, ThingDoer said:

Starting a new thread since replies are locked on the new post. 

@[CG] LAWLTA, as a developer myself, I can appreciate that not every problem has a perfect solution.  I can also appreciate that it can be very difficult to create a product which satisfies everyone in all situations.  However your response seems to miss addressing one of the biggest concerns from the community, which is that we were specifically told there would NOT be a wipe just 20 days ago by Phillip in the Early Access forum post on the subject.  At the time of that post, there are two possibilities, either CG knew that profiles were going into legacy mode or you didn't.  If it was already known, why was it not communicated clearly at that time?  If it was not known, why were we not informed once the decision was made that resulted in Phillip's comment being untrue?

And yes, I acknowledge that this isn't exactly a wipe, but let's be honest here, it's tantamount to the same thing.

 

OP -- let's be honest -- there was NO WIPE.  You are straight up lying and making up fake news.   You can play all your EA content in 1.0 in Legacy.   Your integrity loses leverage when you fail to acknowledge the facts.   If you cannot play with your EA content in Legacy -- then prove it.  

Next -- are you a CG Game Dev?  Are you a employee at CG?  Are you part owner of CG?   If not, what level of entitlement do you think you have to be given notice of what CG does or doesn't do with it's intellectual property?   Seriously - are you 5 yrs old?   Crying cause you didn't get a DM on twitter from CG asking for your permission on a Legacy mode?    Ridiculousness.   

 

What is more embarrassing for yourself, is the fact that if you are, in fact, a developer -- you have failed to see how silly you look with your entitled illogical argument.    You don't speak on behalf of anyone other than yourself, you're not entitled to hear anything from CG other than what you paid for -- which is what you have gotten.   So based on these facts -- OP -- you have written a S***Post.  Smells rotten!    

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, pigboy said:

OP -- let's be honest -- there was NO WIPE.  You are straight up lying and making up fake news.   You can play all your EA content in 1.0 in Legacy.   Your integrity loses leverage when you fail to acknowledge the facts.   If you cannot play with your EA content in Legacy -- then prove it.  

Next -- are you a CG Game Dev?  Are you a employee at CG?  Are you part owner of CG?   If not, what level of entitlement do you think you have to be given notice of what CG does or doesn't do with it's intellectual property?   Seriously - are you 5 yrs old?   Crying cause you didn't get a DM on twitter from CG asking for your permission on a Legacy mode?    Ridiculousness.   

 

What is more embarrassing for yourself, is the fact that if you are, in fact, a developer -- you have failed to see how silly you look with your entitled illogical argument.    You don't speak on behalf of anyone other than yourself, you're not entitled to hear anything from CG other than what you paid for -- which is what you have gotten.   So based on these facts -- OP -- you have written a S***Post.  Smells rotten!    

 

 

 

Pig, lets talk:

There was no wipe, but considering most players play the normal game, not legacy/offline/workshop - DD1 players know this very well - we should have been better addressed in the issue. It does feel like a wipe for most of us, and considering that we were told by CG that it was going to happen one way causes frustration because they released before the notice went up. We didn't have a notice or talk about it or anything. And sorry if you don't think we, clients, are entitled to expect anything, but I am part of the kickstarter crew, I paid for this project to be launched with A LOT of features that are missing.

 

Then again, COVID and all, I would gladly expect and wait for a later release. What you fail to realize when complaining to the frustration of others for something you felt right - for whatever reason - is that we are missing A LOT of stuff that was promised to kickstarter backers before launch.

 

Wanna go further on the discussion? Let's go.

First, addressing all you said. If someone comes up to the forum and say that they can't login will you try to help or ask them to prove they can't login before? Geez, calm down man. He is complaining to the fact that we were told we wouldn't get a wipe but, as I mentioned, most players and backers are from DD1 games, we know that the new mode will be the mode people won't be playing often. That is what he meant. Can you use critical thinking when reading to understand why the person is writing as they are?

 

Second, about being part or not of CG to get a notice. I paid for the production of the game, as many others, I paid more than twice the price of the game at full price PRIOR to the reduction we have now. I also paid in a promise of what we would get. Guess what? We didn't. We are allowed to complain, or do you buy anything and if it doesn't work you are like: "Oh, bummer, well, let me buy another product"? I think you do go and want them to refund the product or get you a working one and all, right? Well, guess how it goes for these cases? We complain, they read, they listen, we send them notices with our backerkit as well. That's how it rolls in the industry, get together.

 

You don't want to see logic in an argument because it contradicts yours. At first I was COMPLETELY fine with the price change, then I saw the wipe, then I saw all the rest that was going on AT THE SAME TIME, so I got where the frustration was coming from and made my mind to the opposite side after that. Get critical thinking and stop being an ass. Want a say in this? Pay for the kickstarter next time.

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5 minutes ago, Loki Grants said:

Pig, lets talk:

There was no wipe, but considering most players play the normal game, not legacy/offline/workshop - DD1 players know this very well - we should have been better addressed in the issue. It does feel like a wipe for most of us, and considering that we were told by CG that it was going to happen one way causes frustration because they released before the notice went up. We didn't have a notice or talk about it or anything. And sorry if you don't think we, clients, are entitled to expect anything, but I am part of the kickstarter crew, I paid for this project to be launched with A LOT of features that are missing.

 

Then again, COVID and all, I would gladly expect and wait for a later release. What you fail to realize when complaining to the frustration of others for something you felt right - for whatever reason - is that we are missing A LOT of stuff that was promised to kickstarter backers before launch.

 

Wanna go further on the discussion? Let's go.

First, addressing all you said. If someone comes up to the forum and say that they can't login will you try to help or ask them to prove they can't login before? Geez, calm down man. He is complaining to the fact that we were told we wouldn't get a wipe but, as I mentioned, most players and backers are from DD1 games, we know that the new mode will be the mode people won't be playing often. That is what he meant. Can you use critical thinking when reading to understand why the person is writing as they are?

 

Second, about being part or not of CG to get a notice. I paid for the production of the game, as many others, I paid more than twice the price of the game at full price PRIOR to the reduction we have now. I also paid in a promise of what we would get. Guess what? We didn't. We are allowed to complain, or do you buy anything and if it doesn't work you are like: "Oh, bummer, well, let me buy another product"? I think you do go and want them to refund the product or get you a working one and all, right? Well, guess how it goes for these cases? We complain, they read, they listen, we send them notices with our backerkit as well. That's how it rolls in the industry, get together.

 

You don't want to see logic in an argument because it contradicts yours. At first I was COMPLETELY fine with the price change, then I saw the wipe, then I saw all the rest that was going on AT THE SAME TIME, so I got where the frustration was coming from and made my mind to the opposite side after that. Get critical thinking and stop being an ass. Want a say in this? Pay for the kickstarter next time.

Dude just link him to the steam forums and reddit and you will see that people are pissed. Not very happy chappies there. So it’s not just you who feels they are mislead. I’m just going to grab my pop corn and see how this eventuates. 

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Hey pigboy, first of all, I don't really see the reason for your attitude.  I'm not being aggressive or disrespectful in my post, so it doesn't seem fitting that you reply with that tone.  Let's try to be civil to keep a friendly environment here.  Toxicity will only make life difficult for the CG employees who have to moderate this forum.

 

17 minutes ago, pigboy said:

OP -- let's be honest -- there was NO WIPE.  You are straight up lying and making up fake news.   You can play all your EA content in 1.0 in Legacy.   Your integrity loses leverage when you fail to acknowledge the facts.   If you cannot play with your EA content in Legacy -- then prove it.  

It seems you missed the last line in my post.  As I admitted, yes this is technically not a "wipe." But it is effectively the same thing when you relegate previous content to a mode designed to support mods, where there will undoubtedly eventually be some incredibly OP items.  As someone who plays solo and doesn't enjoy using mods in games, I prefer not to venture into game modes that support it if given the option.

21 minutes ago, pigboy said:

Next -- are you a CG Game Dev?  Are you a employee at CG?  Are you part owner of CG?   If not, what level of entitlement do you think you have to be given notice of what CG does or doesn't do with it's intellectual property?   Seriously - are you 5 yrs old?   Crying cause you didn't get a DM on twitter from CG asking for your permission on a Legacy mode?    Ridiculousness.   

I am not employed by CG in any capacity.  Hence my need to ask my question here on this forum.  I never requested notice of what they plan to do in any form.  I am specifically asking for clarification on information that was voluntarily posted by a CG employee in these very forums, which turned out to be rather misleading with the change that came today.

 

24 minutes ago, pigboy said:

What is more embarrassing for yourself, is the fact that if you are, in fact, a developer -- you have failed to see how silly you look with your entitled illogical argument.

What argument would that be exactly?  My claim that at the time of CG's post in question they either did or did not know about the migration to legacy mode?  I don't understand how that's illogical.  Is there another option that I'm missing?

 

27 minutes ago, pigboy said:

You don't speak on behalf of anyone other than yourself,

I will concede this point.  I should have worded my post more clearly.  Based on the sentiment posted by others in these forums and on the DD discord, I believe that there are others who may share my point of view on this subject.

 

28 minutes ago, pigboy said:

you're not entitled to hear anything from CG other than what you paid for -- which is what you have gotten.   So based on these facts -- OP -- you have written a S***Post.  Smells rotten!

I never implied that I was entitled to a response.  I'm not here screaming about the fact that CG hasn't replied here yet.  Maybe they will, maybe they won't, who knows.  However, as someone who backed the game on KS, I do believe I am entitled to ask the question and I fail to see the harm in doing so.

I respect that you do not share my sentiment here, but I recognize that you are entitled to your opinion.  Just as I am entitled to mine.  Please don't attempt to devalue my post simply because you disagree, as doing so would seem to be more deserving of the definition of a sh*tpost than what I have shared here.

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pigboy is a troll, plain and simple, all of his posts are related to this not being a wipe and defending CG. Do not interact with him.

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Posted (edited)

In all honesty, people don't care about how hard you work.  That isn't how you earn goodwill.  People care about what you promise them, what you deliver them, and how you handle any gaps between the two.  Hard work helps makes sure you don't have to deal with the third point, but when hard work doesn't get it done then you actually have to deal with it.  I'd feel worse for you if the reaction from the community wasn't so utterly foreseeable.  You didn't have to bring this shitstorm down on yourself.

 

Edited by Zuqual
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Here's my actual response to the cop-out post we got.

Just so you don't lie about, or misinterpret, what I'm syaing the "you" in here is CG, not Lawlta.

After reading the statement, all I can think is, why is it so hard to write a script that will read the EA profiles from your database and then, just, like, rewrite it in the "new" database? In fact, why is there even a need to port the profiles? there is NO difference between open/ranked (because, lets get real, that's what they are) saves right now. It really feels like a cop out after you realized that the game population had dropped a lot, averaging at 300-400 players compared to the peaks of >1000 and you desperately wanted to force people to spend more time in-game again. For the curious: https://steamcharts.com/app/1101190

If this was an issue with people who had "broken" gear, or OP propellers cats, you could have simply not ported those items over. As we saw with the gold glitch, you had no qualms about wiping the gold off of people's profiles, and the community agreed with that decision. I'm pretty sure people would have been fine with some of their items not being ported, heck, you could even have just nerfed those items, like you did with the pet rocks before.

All I see in this post is excuses, and no actual reason as to why there had to be a wipe split in the playerbase. From the DD1 numbers, you knew that people played ranked and not open, that is why you went with this solution, nothing else. You claim you had "tons" of problems, without naming one. That is what a lot people do when they don't have any actual reason for their actions.

One of the funiest statements is this:

Quote

We even added a way to make more of these Legacy profiles for players looking to play with their friends who have spent a lot of time in Early Access, without burying us in future tech debt for additional adds to DD:A.

You wot m8? You mean, you had to let people create characters in a gamemode that required people to be able to create characters in to play with mods? That's revolutionary.

Regarding the price, I don'T have a dog in that fight, as I paid 75$ on kickscammer, so it doesn't directly affect me. I do, however, have a strong opinion against the price drop. People have been saying that 40$ is too expensive, and you have been saying that there wont be price drops. Oddly enough however, you decide to have a price drop  when the population is at the lowest it has been and clearly showing signs that it's not growing. It's just... odd, don't you think? If you truly believe that after months of saying 40$ is fair that 30$ is fair, you should work with steam to give a partial refund to those who paid 40$, or figure out a way to give those people 2 free DLCs, instead of 1.

 

Overall the way I read the post, it seemed like an appeal to emotion and all I could think while reading this is "Look at us (CG), we're the real victims here", and the meme with the guy who shoots the guy in the chair and says, "who did this?".

Will I play DDA again? Maybe, maybe not. I've kinda given up on you CG, from what I understand, massacre survival isn't even out yet, you don't have splitscreen coop, and overall a lot of features are missing. At least blame this on Corona-Chan, like all your white knights have been doing, people would be more understanding.

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Posted (edited)

"This would have been outlined, but we believed we were providing what players wanted, as outlined above, and it seems with some we missed the mark a little."

They honestly need some help with their PR.  There is no way that the dev team actually thought that placing all EA accounts onto the mod server was 'providing what the players wanted.'   Missed the mark a little?  Were you aiming with your eyes closed? 

Also, the price drop cannot possibly be a last minute decision.  Your very own website , as of yesterday, said the price would not change , as to "honor" your early backers. 

 

At this point, i dont expect much in terms of changes to the game/ accounts.  However, your inability to own up to your mistakes is more than frustrating to say the least.  When a company fcks up they dont try and play victim by saying "we've been working a lot of OT", they bite the bullet and issue a sincere apology, not your half assed response.   

Screenshot_20200528-174144~2.png

Edited by braveturtle

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CG please ignore these salt trolls -- all they want is to use their EA progress to CHEAT the game, and then get free stuff they haven't earned or paid for.   Thank you CG for the great game and keep up the hard work!

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2 minutes ago, pigboy said:

CG please ignore these salt trolls -- all they want is to use their EA progress to CHEAT the game, and then get free stuff they haven't earned or paid for.   Thank you CG for the great game and keep up the hard work!

Please be respectful, even if you disagree.

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I think it would be nice to have the option to move our EA game off the legacy server and onto the new server

I think that would be a good fix

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Best Forum Feature Ever!

 

mSNVQLX.png

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From us, Your Defenders:

I've spent $40 on your game because I remember how much fun I had with DD1 back in day on the PS3.  When me and my group of friends found out about DDA (4x of us), all of us decided to pick the game up and started playing together A LOT.  We each put about 100 hours into the game grinding till the end game waiting on release day so we may access MASSACRE.

 

Unfortunately CG has decided to split the player base into PLAY and LEGACY mode.  CG has decided to wipe all my hard work and effort from the main player base.  On top of that, my account has also been flagged as HACKER, so I can no longer join any of my friends in PLAY mode hence they will also be reported as hackers.  I've never hacked in DD and can't even imagine how I would've done so.

 

On top of all of that, CG went against their word that they would not lower the price of the game at release.  A let down, after let down, after let down.

 

Please help me resolve this ridiculous "HACKER" issue or else I will not be back in the future for any CG related games, and I will definitely post bad reviews based on my negative experience.

 

JM

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4 minutes ago, SerJorahMormont said:

From us, Your Defenders:

I've spent $40 on your game because I remember how much fun I had with DD1 back in day on the PS3.  When me and my group of friends found out about DDA (4x of us), all of us decided to pick the game up and started playing together A LOT.  We each put about 100 hours into the game grinding till the end game waiting on release day so we may access MASSACRE.

 

Unfortunately CG has decided to split the player base into PLAY and LEGACY mode.  CG has decided to wipe all my hard work and effort from the main player base.  On top of that, my account has also been flagged as HACKER, so I can no longer join any of my friends in PLAY mode hence they will also be reported as hackers.  I've never hacked in DD and can't even imagine how I would've done so.

 

On top of all of that, CG went against their word that they would not lower the price of the game at release.  A let down, after let down, after let down.

 

Please help me resolve this ridiculous "HACKER" issue or else I will not be back in the future for any CG related games, and I will definitely post bad reviews based on my negative experience.

 

JM

PM the admins your STEAM ID and they will add you to the list of players to remove from the hacker thing, they are aware of this.

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14 hours ago, braveturtle said:

we've been working a lot of OT

I'm not sure why this is even an excuse.  The community hasn't expected them to.  In fact, most of the community was fine with the idea of a delay.  Instead, they burn themselves out by overworking to meet a soft deadline that the majority of people would've been fine with moving.

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Dungeon defenders has always done a wipe prior to release.  Even if there is miscommunication there would stil be a wipe.  for those of us who have been around since DD1 we cannot expect anything but the less.  You are free to play legacy to continue moving forward with your previous  progression.   Trendy, Chromatic will always wipe as they have done before release.  I am appalled that the community has not caught on to this yet.  It takes only one day to get back to where we were previously.  Wipe or not, this is a game and not a life style and now experienced players can help those whom have  no experience.  In all honesty its a nice blend to play with those whom have had no experience prior to now.  Our levels are easily gained back especially with the experience we now have.  

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11 minutes ago, ArmyGuyVince said:

It takes only one day to get back to where we were previously.

I think this is a little disingenuous.  Getting multiple heroes back to level 100, which many of us who invested 100s of hours in EA had, is not something easily done in one day.

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27 minutes ago, ThingDoer said:

I think this is a little disingenuous.  Getting multiple heroes back to level 100, which many of us who invested 100s of hours in EA had, is not something easily done in one day.

Hey ThingDoer I agree that we spent a lot of hours on this previously and some may have wanted to do other things,  but I do not regret the hours. I just regret not getting a break hahah. The reason we spent so many hours on the previous "legacy" accounts was because the game lacked a "star on wave", but the full release of Dungeon Defenders Awakened changes that. I have made great account progression in 12 hours of playing this. I still enjoy the game, I just want more communication from the Devs.

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The fact that people can actually defend CG making us waste time is baffling to me.

"Just play legacy where you'll have your stuff and your time is not"

What if I want to play with my friends who will be in Play ? CG WANTS you to be in play, just look at how "shiny" the Play button is compared to legacy, if you don't realize this was done on purpose to grab attention, then you are being fooled.

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29 minutes ago, chpoit said:

The fact that people can actually defend CG making us waste time is baffling to me.

"Just play legacy where you'll have your stuff and your time is not"

What if I want to play with my friends who will be in Play ? CG WANTS you to be in play, just look at how "shiny" the Play button is compared to legacy, if you don't realize this was done on purpose to grab attention, then you are being fooled.

I was certainly annoyed by their move, but I am one of those people who are defending them as well. I backed this game because I wanted to. No one forced me. Its unfortunate and I think they should have communicated these intentions sooner and more clearly, especially because I think they understood what we were talking about when not resetting our accounts. What they did ultimately was the same thing. I abandoned my 210 hour account and moved to The other section, becaus clearly that's what is intended. I have hope that CG will figure something out, and so far I enjoy their game and will gladly continue. Dont get me wrong now. I was super annoyed and felt like I was taken for a dupe at first,  but then I realized most of my account progression came about from game bugs early on (op prop cat, Mister mines etc.) So here I get to play it all again, and with a lot less issues this go around.

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Posted (edited)

i understand allot of the frustration expressed by many members of the community and the main point of contention for me is how they handle conveying their decisions other than the actual decisions themselves. Ever since I backed on KS when a situation would arise that would mean deviating from the original plan no effort was made to inform us until after we were directly affected by it. First with the delivery charges for t-shirts outwith NA, the problem for many was not so much paying for delivery but only finding out once we had our survey to put down size of t-shirt, much of that backlash could of been prevented if we had some email beforehand stating something like - We are having issues with our supplier, we are not sure what is happening, but this may mean we have to charge some backers for delivery. Time and time again it seems to be the same story their actual decision seems reasonable but they wait to address it until people start to complain instead of giving us a "heads up". i have on many occasions requested that they start to being more open before sweeping changes are made to our current expectations, but it always seems to fall on deaf ears. I am not upset by what the game launched with and what happened to our Early Access progress even though I have spent 800hrs in EA all I ever asked for is be kept informed ahead of time to make me feel like my trust in the company is warranted.

Edited by dizzydiana
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