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Tower tweaks

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This is a general form survey for any willing to post feedback for some tower changes or rescaling. Any towers that feel currently underwhelming for their designated job. Bugs you’ve found. Or any general changes to towers that would help balance out their DU cost or give a reason to potentially lower it. Any scaling changes with the tower / aura for power, rate, health, or range. From my experiences with some of these defenses I have had some pretty rough experiences and would love to see them try and rebalance some of these towers to suit their respective jobs. This is simply a positive post to produce some thoughtful conversation and should be stimulating to help the devs see that some towers are still from what I feel unbalanced for higher content. Any tower could beat non survival with 0 issues. This is more for higher tier survival 20+.

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Gonna be honest as much as I like that they've brought everything back from DD1 I think the cannonball tower should just be reworked. 

It's the one tower that's so flawed on a mechanical level no amount of balance can make it worthwhile. 

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12 minutes ago, Zombiewookie said:

Squire as a builder sucks 

Lightning tower and magic missile are useless 

Huntress darkness trap is bugged and doesn t work ( never reset) 

 

Lighting tower is worthless but magic missile towers are great if used correctly.   Terrible only if used wrong. 

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1 hour ago, Cuddles said:

Gonna be honest as much as I like that they've brought everything back from DD1 I think the cannonball tower should just be reworked. 

It's the one tower that's so flawed on a mechanical level no amount of balance can make it worthwhile. 

I always liked the cannonball towers in DD1, how it could be used on straight lanes but was even better when shooting downhill. You had to choose when to use them. I hated them in DD2 though, they just felt generic, I felt no need or want to use them.

It would be cool to be able to choose between DD1 and DD2 tower specializations. Balance would be harder but also satisfy DD1 and DD2 players.

What would you prefer them to be?

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1 minute ago, Zombiewookie said:

@fluffycalico give me 1 good example for magic missile xD 

Dps is trash  and barely tickles the mobs wave 20+ lab insane 

How about 3 examples

1) To kill the fire resistant trash that the fireball towers won't

2) Not all maps can towers cover themselves 1 MM tower pointed backwards keeps ninjas from killing your towers from behind 

3) They keep kobalds from running between fireball pulses far enough to explode on your shields

Are MM towers as strong as the others? No but they also cost a lot less.   Per DU they are actually fairly decent

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Tower balance is something that will hopefully get changed as we go, because lord knows they have issues. Personally I'd like to talk about tower design, though, as far as changes go. The lightning and magic missile towers + apprentice barrier really need reworked from a look perspective. They don't fit the elegant slim or sharp designs of the fire and sniper towers, or what apprentice has typically been designed for in the other DDs. As far as tower use... that's a hard one for me to really come down on until we get a better idea of difficulty. 

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@fluffycalico

For 1 and 2 using a lightning aura would give better results (DU versus damage dps dealt) 
3 can be taken care with enrage, also pretty sure in survival mm doesn't even have enough dps to take care of kobolds by itself

1 Flameburst (5DU) does more dps than 5 mm (15 du) of course the mm would be physical damage but still 

Edited by Zombiewookie

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10 minutes ago, Zombiewookie said:

@fluffycalico

For 1 and 2 using a lightning aura would give better results (DU versus damage dps dealt) 
3 can be taken care with enrage, also pretty sure in survival mm doesn't even have enough dps to take care of kobolds by itself

1 Flameburst (5DU) does more dps than 5 mm (15 du) of course the mm would be physical damage but still 

Lighting towers are hard to justify on any map.   They are near universally accepted was the worst mage tower per DU period.

In DD1 or E Fireball towers did about 2x the damage of MM.   Now in the beta it seems more like 4x.   I suspect this will be tuned before launch to the 2x it was before.   If it remains 4x like in current beta the places to use it will be more limited than before.   If they correct it back to 2x like it always was...then they will continue to be useful many places.

Edited by fluffycalico

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For 1 and 2 using a lightning aura would give better results

Lightning tower is trash 

And yeah , this isn't about dd1 or dde but DDa, MM in DDa suck 

Edited by Zombiewookie

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7 minutes ago, Zombiewookie said:

For 1 and 2 using a lightning aura would give better results

Lightning tower is trash 

And yeah , this isn't about dd1 or dde but DDa, MM in DDa suck 

It's beta balancing and buffing and nerfing will definitively be incoming.   Now will they correct magic missile back to what it used to be?  Hopefully as the last thing the mage needs is a 2nd dead tower

Edited by fluffycalico
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I just wanna make sure I have something right. You all are trying to present anecdotal evidence as fact while missing large data points, that are not currently included in the Beta to be used as data in the first place, in order to balance towers that we cannot see the stats of after only seven days of said Beta being active?

Is that somewhat close?

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@Exglint  This is about balance in the current beta. It is a fact that some defenses are especially bad (or not working at all). While not having an inspect function makes the exact dps calculation hard, assessing the effectiveness of a defense remains pretty easy given that stats can be reset whenever to try for various combinations. 

If balance is already bad at the moment in beta , better to say so in my opinion so they fix it.  

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Yes, but this sounds like feedback on Defenses in DD2 from a person who has completed Campaign and C1, where they havent really gotten far enough to really determine what the balance is. We have no idea how many rarities there will be in DDA, is legendary the highest or Ult++ with all the ones in between? How many upgrades does gear get, 5, 10, 50, 100? Is there a stat cap? Will there be a diminishing returns on stats that we just can't possibly hit at this low point. Will speed eventually taper off on some defenses where it is better to get range or dmg changing how they grow altogether? What will accessories bring, just more stats or some special effects we have asked for? Will special enemies from NM change what we use? Have they been changed from DD1 to be different or act differently?

There is just so much unknown that I cant believe we have the answers to yet to make a definitive conclusion on balance. Nor do we have word from CG saying that these defenses are even in their final state and not already looking at changes to begin with.

I agree with bug finding, if a defense isnt doing what it is supposed to or just being wonky, but determining balance I think we are still far too early to determine.

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I see it this way, all defenses should be usable for most of the game equally 
Right now in early game there are only a few defenses worth using.

If there is a balance problem  already it isn't a good sign for later on. 
Also we are already seeing diminishing returns on stats. 

Btw did you even play DDA xD

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the point of limited data still stands though. We are assessing balance with four out of 15 maps and 4 out of 6 difficulties. Each tower has to justify its DU cost we cannot expect a 3du tower to be more effective than one at 5u if anything 2x 3du should  equal one at 5Du for example. Some towers do seem to be underperforming for their DU cost like the bowling ball tower, but i think thats because at present it doesnt function as it did in dd1. Some towers seem to sporadically stop working like lightning towers. the ensnare aura doesnt seem to be as effective as it was in DD1(but this could be due to us only using what will be low tiered gear compared to what we will use in Massacre). I have issues with some towers as many others do, but other than funcionality I dont feel we have enough imperical data to say that the beta balance will be consistent through all levels of difficulty. In Nightmare resistances tower ranges etc were changed in DD1, can we without any real information say for sure that there will be no alterations to towers or Heroes in either Nightmare or Massacre? We can make educated guesses at the moment but that is as far as we can take it.

Edited by dizzydiana

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Seems like most folks are using just Squire walls and mage fireball & DS towers with the occasional snare aura when I pop into random groups. It's pretty telling of what most think of huntress traps or anything from the Squire beyond walls. With the hero deck system it just doesn't make sense to use the second best option any more like people often settled on in the early days of DD1. I'd say something needs to change to make towers more uniquely suited to different situations in order to see use.

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6 minutes ago, kajerlou1 said:

Seems like most folks are using just Squire walls and mage fireball & DS towers with the occasional snare aura when I pop into random groups. It's pretty telling of what most think of huntress traps or anything from the Squire beyond walls. With the hero deck system it just doesn't make sense to use the second best option any more like people often settled on in the early days of DD1. I'd say something needs to change to make towers more uniquely suited to different situations in order to see use.

In early day DD1 most people did use mainly mage towers, squire shield, and 1 aura type.   The mage stayed on that to boost towers 25-30% and the rest were on DPS classes.   Over time things changed but that is how it started.

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It is way too early to look at tower balance in the current state of the game. Let me explain why:

You really have to consider the way how defenses are scaling with stats. And that is hard to do, because the stat-range is very limited, with max. stats just being in the range of 200-400 in the beta. But every defense has a base value, a linear and an exponential coefficient. All three values can differ quite a lot, which results in a defense to scale much better with higher stats or maybe much worse than another defense. The point is, that one defense, which seems weak at the moment, might overtake another one, once you reach a certain stat-threshold. If you are interested in this topic, you can check out my data sheets (the one for DDE is complete):

 

A towers effectiveness mainly scales with damage and attack rate (=> DPS). But in case of the monk and the huntress, range is also a very important scaling factor for the effectiveness. I think it goes without saying, that the larger the area of effect is, the more total damage you can simultaneously do due to hitting more enemies, until you hit all enemies on that lane at the same time. If you can cover 2 lanes instead of just 1 with the same aura stack, that's also a massive safe in DU cost. The lightning tower kinda falls in between, but I am not sure, if "max. chain length" (scaling with range) is a stat again.

When it comes to the huntress, her defenses scale much better with higher stats (see datasheet). In addition she not only needs a lot of tower range but also tower HP, so the traps charges are acceptable for a long survival wave. Hence traps are not useful in the early and mid game but become better and better later on.

In another topic someone was complaining about the "ensnare aura" being useless, because its slow-down is too little. That's another case for stat scaling not considered. The base value of the ensnare aura is probably just 30% and you need a lot of stats to bring it up to more meaningful values, because the formula uses atan. Later on with 80-90% slow, it becomes a vital defense.

Edited by The Ich
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