Jump to content
SaintsBC

Personal DDA feedback

Recommended Posts

First of all let me start with how glad i am with Dungeon Defenders Awakend going back to the roots. I played both DD1 DD2 and DDE with a total of 700+ hours played with mainly DD1 and DD2 since i enjoyed them far more than DD2.

 

The positive:

*MAP DESIGN: the maps gave a good feel of nostalgia for me. The deeper well and alchemical look and felt just like i remebered it but with an updated look which honored the old design.

*TOWER DESIGN: For me the towers all felt unique and had their own way of shooting or exploding etc. Though the mage towers looked a bit stale. they felt lifeless compared to DD1 let the elements reflect in the tower more.

*CHARACTER INGAME MODELS: The models of all 4 available heroes looked good in game and the movement felt right.

*TALENT TREE: The talent tree is a great step in the right direction. One of the things that i didn't like in DD2 is that i could put max point in range as an example and almost felt no impact. now when i throw only 20 points in range i see the difference clearly in aura size tower range etc. Same for hero stats put a point in offense and you'll hit harder. For me it's simple but feel impactfull.

*GAMEPLAY: overall the gameplay was good. Towers felt powerfull again. I could just build my defense and sit back and relax and watch hordes of enemies get obliterated without needing to jump into active combat. For me this is what DD1 and DDE did right compared to DD2. With the right build you can just afk your way through the level and that feels great if i chose to do so.

*GEAR: I love RNG but reasonable no 0.01% BS. As far as gear dropped in the beta i really liked that each piece is unique when it comes to stats. This gives good depth and keeps people playing to get the little bit more power on a specific piece. 

 

The negative:

*UI: although it has been announced that this was a placeholder i still wanna give my 2 cents about it. The way i would like to see the menu would be very much in style of DD1. The combination of the medievel and the magic felt great in there. The stats were easy to see and looking at what will be an upgrade was easier to decide.

*DEPTH: I know that it's beta but i kinda missed the depth of gear. This mainly in the term of defensive stats. The fact that you needed to juggle your ressistences for the harder maps in terms of survival really gave an extre oomph to the game. I haven't read anything about this but personally i hope this will make a return in the release.

*CHARACTER CREATION: This is not about the UI but this is about the terror that is the monk his face. Luckely the faces i have seen in game looked great but for me the faces of both the monk as well as the huntress felt off. Can't really put my finger on it what it is exactly.

*HERO DECK: this might be an unpopular opinion, but i really don't like the hero deck. This is mainly due to the fact that the XP get's shared. For me this way you'll shorten the amount of time you'll truly be playing the game. Looking back at DD1 you needed several heroes for both building as well as boss dps. The leveling part never felt bad in my opinion because i loved the grind. And that is a something that makes this game so appealing is that for the true endgame you need to grind.

*MANA CRYSTALS: i really missed the sparkly sound and the colorfull rocks popping out of the corpses of the slain enemies. The way they looked in DD1 it felt more magical. The current state feels to stale.

 

Request:

This is mainly what i would like to see either added or kept in the future.

*MORE DEPTH: Like i mentioned above i missed the ressistance on my gear and i personally hope it will make it's comback. I would also like to see the return of negative stats. With both those things pieces of gear came to life. You had to think if you were willing to take the -100 tower health over a +125 tower attack or something similar.

*THE RETURN OF THE FORGE: Though the defenders forge has no place now in maps with the current design i personally hope that it will be returned to running back and forth to the forge to quickly swap to the next hero to build your defenses and back again in time to make sure you have your DPS during the comming round. This is mainly something that really adds another dimension to Insane and up since those have timers for building fases. Again something that adds a bit of extra depth. Give us the challenge don't dumb it down please.

 

 

Though the beta is only 4 maps it gave off a good vibe and gives a lot of trust for the future release! 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SaintsBC said:

but i really don't like the hero deck. This is mainly due to the fact that the XP get's shared. For me this way you'll shorten the amount of time you'll truly be playing the game.

No one was ever "truly playing the game" when leveling beyond their initial character in DD1 anyway. If you think being essentially forced into AFKing easy maps that you gain really nothing from for tens of hours was brilliant gameplay I'd like some of what you're smoking. 

1 hour ago, SaintsBC said:

Give us the challenge don't dumb it down please.

Forge swapping with timers balanced around it isn't any more of a challenge than having instant swapping with shorter timers. The "challenge" aspect is still there and could even be made harder, only difference is the walking simulator gameplay that served no purpose other than the inflate build times is gone.

I wont miss it. In a game built around running the same maps hundreds if not thousands of times there's no need to artificially inflate how long a map takes, especially not with a task as menial as walking back and forth.

  • Like 5
  • Confused 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly, I liked running back and forth. By that argument, why don't we just let people save builds and not have people need to put down towers manually? Beyond a certain point it's just better to make people do things manually or you lose something--for the game and for the game world. Personally, I want mana chests back + running around the map. Though I certainly disagree about the models looking good. Especially Apprentice's, who looks like a fat Mexican midget. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Cuddles said:

No one was ever "truly playing the game" when leveling beyond their initial character in DD1 anyway. If you think being essentially forced into AFKing easy maps that you gain really nothing from for tens of hours was brilliant gameplay I'd like some of what you're smoking. 

Well tbh that is part of the grind. Playing towards a goal. Say i have reached endgame on my builder but now i face bosses which can't kill or hold the boss so i need a DPS hero.

i go back to the maps that i could farm for xp to level up a new hero with that task only. This is what i call grinding, you put in hours of easy content just so you can clear harder content.

This is the same with gear. i maybe have a few pieces that are good enough for the next map but i can't finish it so i have to replay the level over and over till i get all my pieces upgraded so i can push forward again. I can understand that for you this isn't fun but for me endgame shouldn't be for anyone who doesn't want to put the time into it.

6 hours ago, Cuddles said:

Forge swapping with timers balanced around it isn't any more of a challenge than having instant swapping with shorter timers. The "challenge" aspect is still there and could even be made harder, only difference is the walking simulator gameplay that served no purpose other than the inflate build times is gone.

I wont miss it. In a game built around running the same maps hundreds if not thousands of times there's no need to artificially inflate how long a map takes, especially not with a task as menial as walking back and forth.

I can see your point but honestly i don't fully agree on this.

With the pet from the 3rd map survival you get an enormous statstick but at the cost of half of your movementspeed.

Let's say i want to build at the doors on the second map, this is some ground to cover. If i stay as my builder the whole time i'm short on time because i'm slowed by the pet. 

Now let's say i start as my dps with tripple the movementspeed i now have more than enough time to build since i just run to the place and swap. By using this technique i make the penalty i take for using a pet that increases my stats non existant.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The arguement against the Hero Deck seems rather weak to me. I would understand the point more if when you made a new hero you could instantly level it to whatever your highest hero level was.. Even on console versions of DD1 with only the Original 4 heroes and no nightmare difficulty you could start the game with a Squire or another get to at least ramparts if not Glitterhelm and never need another hero all the way to insane hardcore. When you wanted or needed another hero to do things like survivals how many actually made a new hero and played through every map from Deeper Well to Glitterhelm. Or did you go to ramparts/Glitterhelm build the map on your first hero then switch out to the new hero? Or if you had contorller load in other new heroes then proceed to afk the entire rest of the map? I fail to see how AFK adds difficulty. I do not believe for one second that when you make a new hero like a tower move Jester you did every map in every difficulty on that Jester when you have other heroes at level 100 in Ult++ gear already. I really dont see any posts insisting that if you have not done X map on X hero in DD1 you have to replay all the content from hard Deeper Well to wherever you highest hero got to. The only advantage I see from a hero deck is it actively encourages you to start with 4 heroes rather than one. I really fail to understand where the hero deck outshines the advantage of split screen when playing solo. I would understand more if people were trying to alter split screen because that has so many advantages in DD1 it made multiplayer worse for you if you wanted to play solo - you lost out on erxtra loot, you wouldnt gain 4x pets you lost out on extra XP since all you had to do in split screen was hit an enemy per wave for 1.5x bonus. What baffles me most is the posts against the hero deck come from players who mostly or only play DD1 which has split screen on PC unlike DD2 who are most likely using an emulator or extra controllers at present to artificially shorten the XP or loot grind anyway. One other thing Id like to note is the forge will be returning in some form in DDA we dont know at present if to switch out the theroes in your hero deck on release can be done from the UI or has to be done at the forge, so there may still be times where we have to run back and forth changng heroes in insane difficulty.

Edited by dizzydiana

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, SaintsBC said:

This is the same with gear

It's not the same, though. 

When you're after gear you can do whatever you want. You can run around on an upgrade character, a DPS character or just AFK (unless you're pushing into a new map). You have the freedom to be as engaged with the game as you want. That's entertaining.

But when you're leveling a character with DD1's system that freedom goes away. If you want to level a builder you're basically forced to do nothing beyond the build phase. As I've said in another thread, AFKing is fine sometimes but when you're forced to do nothing but AFK and can't make meaningful interaction with the game for hours on end what's really the point? You're no longer really "playing" it. 

3 hours ago, SaintsBC said:

I can understand that for you this isn't fun but for me endgame shouldn't be for anyone who doesn't want to put the time into it.

And I agree. Endgame in any progression based game should take time, effort and skill to break into. 

But when most of the separation between mid and end game is just AFKing for hours to level up characters that's a progression and design flaw. I'd much rather have that non-engaging level grind that encouraged the community to be incredibly anti-social be smoothed out and have it replaced with an actual gear grind even if it takes longer. 

3 hours ago, SaintsBC said:

Now let's say i start as my dps with tripple the movementspeed i now have more than enough time to build since i just run to the place and swap. By using this technique i make the penalty i take for using a pet that increases my stats non existant.

Well, for one, the hero boosts negate the rocks penalty anyway. 

Two, if we had forge swapping, pets like the rock and potentially others we don't know of probably wouldn't be very viable anyway. I don't think I've ever known anyone to really use DD1's rock.

Three, there's still a penalty. You're animation locked and unable to build anything for 2-3 seconds after swapping a hero. That's quite a lot of time when you're on a short timer and I wouldn't be surprised if we end up with maps that encourage swapping as little as possible. 

Side note: damn it's great to have pets  that actually make a meaningful impact on the game again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay let's start of with that in the posts above i've never mentioned that you need to replay the game completly to level up a new character.

The reason i don't like the hero deck has 2 reasons so i will try to explain both as good as possible.

LEVELING: The current state of the hero deck is that the xp you gain on your active hero get's shared for the full 100% to all the other heroes. The reason why i disslike this has also                           several reasons.

                  - The feeling of accomplishment of levelling all heroes to max isn't there. Compared to DD1 where if you had all characters at lvl 100 you had put in some serieus hours to                           achieve. Even when you used a controller or used an emulator to level up more at the same time. If i recall correctly when heroes died on hardcore in DD1 they would get                           reduced xp but not completly sure about that. Anyway they needed to be in the game otherwise they would not get XP and with their pressence the dificulity scalled                                 upwards(alteast for survival)

                 - Like i already mentioned above it added a bit of extra difficulity because when you used extra the monster scaling went up. So it was a check if you could easily do the map                       or you can't finish it because you added to many heroes afk for the stats that you have.

                   For me this feels like the more recent pokémon games. The challenge is gone where you combat switched to level your lower level pokémon. With the latest edition XP                             share being standard really hurt the challenge. (Hero deck is for me just an XP share for the heroes that didn't lift a finger)

 

GAMEPLAY: Like i already explained in a post above it takes the challenge from insane and upwards. How it now feels is like you can completly negate the need of movementspeed on                         your builders. The maps we currently have are not really the best example for this case since the defenses are most effectivly build close to the core and we only have 1                             core to defend.

                       I'll use the DD1 map city in the cliffs with the current state of the game as an example here.

                       once i enter the build mode i have all the mana that is available on the first round from chests. i have 4 heroes in my deck that i would need for the first round. 1. Monk                                2. Series EV 3. Summoner 4. Jester. With this new system all my builders have no need for Movementspeed since i have my dps who acts like a racecar.

                       Let's say we need 15 seconds to build with the hero swap downtime calculated. multiply that by 5 since you'll probably want to build 5 spots. Add another 5-8 seconds                             for moving from spots. for the easy math i'll also multiply this by 5. so 5*15 = 75.  75+(5*8)=115 seconds total of building time. City in the cliffs has a 210 seconds of                                 build time. So this way if we had the current system there we would have more than plenty of time. Also this way i can completly ignore movementspeed on builders and                           take the massive movementspeed slow the pet rock gives. Thus imho because you don't need to think about a certain stat you dumb down the game.

 

I personally like grinding games like DD1/DDE, PoE, D3 etc. i will always be grinding to get to the hardest parts of the game and then try to make it easier. And with that i hope that DDA will be able to cater those things and not give out the endgame and it's rewards to people who only play for a couple of hours. Because i take pride in my achievements if they are trully challenging to get

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's forget about the fucked up way the spacing worked out i'll try again since i can't figure out how to edit:

Okay let's start of with that in the posts above i've never mentioned that you need to replay the game completly to level up a new character.

The reason i don't like the hero deck has 2 reasons so i will try to explain both as good as possible.

LEVELING: The current state of the hero deck is that the xp you gain on your active hero get's shared for the full 100% to all the other heroes. The reason why i disslike this has also                           several reasons.

  •  The feeling of accomplishment of levelling all heroes to max isn't there. Compared to DD1 where if you had all characters at lvl 100 you had put in some serieus hours to achieve. Even when you used a controller or used an emulator to level up more at the same time. If i recall correctly when heroes died on hardcore in DD1 they would get reduced xp but not completly sure about that. Anyway they needed to be in the game otherwise they would not get XP and with their pressence the dificulity scalled upwards(alteast for survival)
  • Like i already mentioned above it added a bit of extra difficulity because when you used extra the monster scaling went up. So it was a check if you could easily do the map or you can't finish it because you added to many heroes afk for the stats that you have.
  • For me this feels like the more recent pokémon games. The challenge is gone where you combat switched to level your lower level pokémon. With the latest edition XP share being standard really hurt the challenge. (Hero deck is for me just an XP share for the heroes that didn't lift a finger)

  

GAMEPLAY: Like i already explained in a post above it takes the challenge from insane and upwards. How it now feels is like you can completly negate the need of movementspeed on your builders. The maps we currently have are not really the best example for this case since the defenses are most effectivly build close to the core and we only have 1 core to defend.

 I'll use the DD1 map city in the cliffs with the current state of the game as an example here. 

Once i enter the build mode i have all the mana that is available on the first round from chests. i have 4 heroes in my deck that i would need for the first round. 1. Monk 2. Series EV 3. Summoner 4. Jester. With this new system all my builders have no need for Movementspeed since i have my dps who acts like a racecar.

Let's say we need 15 seconds to build with the hero swap downtime calculated. multiply that by 5 since you'll probably want to build 5 spots. Add another 5-8 seconds for moving from spots. for the easy math i'll also multiply this by 5. so 5*15 = 75.  75+(5*8)=115 seconds total of building time. City in the cliffs has a 210 seconds of build time. So this way if we had the current system there we would have more than plenty of time. Also this way i can completly ignore movementspeed on builders and take the massive movementspeed slow the pet rock gives. Thus imho because you don't need to think about a certain stat you dumb down the game.

 

I personally like grinding games like DD1/DDE, PoE, D3 etc. i will always be grinding to get to the hardest parts of the game and then try to make it easier. And with that i hope that DDA will be able to cater those things and not give out the endgame and it's rewards to people who only play for a couple of hours. Because i take pride in my achievements if they are trully challenging to get

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m feeling choosey, so I am gonna hit your topic of the stale mana. I personally 100% agree that the lack of multiple colors from enemies is there, that they have multiple colors and styles of gems. If you gather a lot of mana, at least like 1000-2000, you’ll see what I mean. I wouldn’t discourage about the current mana. Because as of now there is not consistency with the mana drops from 1 map to another. ie deeper well - alchemical laboratory. There’s a giant difference mana wise. Don’t discourage friend, there very well could be colorful mana busting out of every enemy that has enough guts to cross you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lord, my love of grinding endlessly I think faded away with EverQuest years ago. Now I just want to co-op with my wife in DDA. Endlessly grinding up one character after another to max level is not our cup of tea so despite being initially dubious we both love the hero deck now.
I certainly hope we won't have to average 10-30 survivals (especially seeing how slow survivals currently are) to get gear upgrades at the high end either. It'd be nice to just see frequent enough content updates instead. I'd even pay a subscription fee rather than repeat the same survival map for 50 hours straight instead of a more reasonable 10 or so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Cuddles said:

It's not the same, though. 

When you're after gear you can do whatever you want. You can run around on an upgrade character, a DPS character or just AFK (unless you're pushing into a new map). You have the freedom to be as engaged with the game as you want. That's entertaining.

But when you're leveling a character with DD1's system that freedom goes away. If you want to level a builder you're basically forced to do nothing beyond the build phase. As I've said in another thread, AFKing is fine sometimes but when you're forced to do nothing but AFK and can't make meaningful interaction with the game for hours on end what's really the point? You're no longer really "playing" it. 

Honestly i don't really agree with this. if you are in need of huntress weapons you are forced have your huntress out to increase the chance of

huntress weapons to drop.

Same with all other classes. In cases in DD1 where you farmed for a specific item as a reward drop for either completing it or getting to a certain wave. Yes there you can use another hero to complete everything up till that point.

 

1 hour ago, Cuddles said:

But when most of the separation between mid and end game is just AFKing for hours to level up characters that's a progression and design flaw. I'd much rather have that non-engaging level grind that encouraged the community to be incredibly anti-social be smoothed out and have it replaced with an actual gear grind even if it takes longer. 

With this i personally do not agree with you but that is just my take on grinding games like DD1/DDE, PoE, D3 and Pokémon. As an example of changes i didn't like that happend to Pokémon. With the newest games they released they implemented a similar thing as how the hero deck now functions. This is the XP share. I explained it in a replay above so i'll keep this short. In terms of Pokémon i liked that i needed to put effort into levelling them the hard way, battleshifting until they are strong enough to pull their own weight. As for the hero deck this feels similar. in my opinion it takes away the effort that you needed to put into things like that. 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand the advantage of hero deck compared to DD1 is being able to level 4 out of however heroes you have at once at the same time. I just dont see that advantage as being game breaking as others do. The only tangible arguement I have seen thus far is for Insane and above where you may reduce a second here or there. This could be solved by lowering the timers to compensate. But if we can still change heroes directly from the ui and not need to go to the forge the reduction in time is minimal. unless the only way to change a hero is at the forge present stationary on the map much of the run on fastest hero and switch still remains whether there is a hero deck or not. Other than the reduction in time of leveling and possibly how long it takes to find a hero in the UI and switch I fail to see where difficulty is lower in running the map. My issue has always been with Split screen if I am playing alone, when is it better for me to play with others when farming challenges or survivals as opposed to using split screen. When is farming Xp using just one hero better than using split screen. If I want to avoid any issue with leveling and dieing in harcdore or just want a more relaxing time I use Pure Strategy mode. Being able to level any 4 heroes without them being present mostly reduces the time spent leveling. .

I am not one to see time spent without progression as a difficulty increase. failing over and over in the hope of picking up loot to get to next dififculty with RNG takes time but still progression. Playing a map over and over with no possibility of better loot  just to level a new hero to me is not progression or more difficult in any way it only adds time which seems pointless, tedious and boring.When i run a survival map to level my new hero its not like that hero can upgrade defences attack enemies or whatever I have to find a safe spot and DO NOTHING but maybe repair for perhaps hours on end. I am not engaged in the map, I am not contributing in any way with the new hero. Until the hero reaches the level where it can actually equip the gear that will allow it to  take a hit from the mob or be able to upgrade the defence to max (60) what actual use its it? I fail to see how this is enjoyable, when i have to wait for maybe hours before the hero is actually of use. Im sorry I really dont. If my new hero actually was useful throughout the run, perhaps my view would change. Perhaps if it didnt require me to be afk for basically the whole run.

Edited by dizzydiana
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, TMyth said:

I’m feeling choosey, so I am gonna hit your topic of the stale mana. I personally 100% agree that the lack of multiple colors from enemies is there, that they have multiple colors and styles of gems. If you gather a lot of mana, at least like 1000-2000, you’ll see what I mean. I wouldn’t discourage about the current mana. Because as of now there is not consistency with the mana drops from 1 map to another. ie deeper well - alchemical laboratory. There’s a giant difference mana wise. Don’t discourage friend, there very well could be colorful mana busting out of every enemy that has enough guts to cross you.

I completly loved how the old gems looked like! The big sizes and different colours spread across the floor was always a nice sight to be seen!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, dizzydiana said:

I understand the advantage of hero deck compared to DD1 is being able to level 4 out of however heroes you have at once at the same time. I just dont see that advantage as being game breaking as others do. The only tangible arguement I have seen thus far is for Insane and above where you may reduce a second here or there. This could be solved by lowering the timers to compensate. But if we can still change heroes directly from the ui and not need to go to the forge the reduction in time is minimal. unless the only way to change a hero is at the forge present stationary on the map much of the run on fastest hero and switch still remains whether there is a hero deck or not. Other than the reduction in time of leveling and possibly how long it takes to find a hero in the UI and switch I fail to see where difficulty is lower in running the map. My issue has always been with Split screen if I am playing alone, when is it better for me to play with others when farming challenges or survivals as opposed to using split screen. When is farming Xp using just one hero better than using split screen. If I want to avoid any issue with leveling and dieing in harcdore or just want a more relaxing time I use Pure Strategy mode. Being able to level any 4 heroes without them being present mostly reduces the time spent leveling. . I am not one to see time spent without progression as a difficulty increase. failing over and over in the hope of picking up loot to get to next dififculty with RNG takes time but still progression. Playing a map over and over with no possibility of better loot  just to level a new hero to me is not progression or more difficult in any way it only adds time which seems pointless, tedious and boring.

Like i said: The current state of how the hero deck now functions it makes hero movementspeed on builders obsolite. It's not a gamebreaking thing but it's taking something away what you needed to take in consideration in DD1. You needed to have enough speed on your builders to make it around the map quick enough so that every crystal was well defended atleast for the first wave. Again it's not gamebreaking but if you don't need to take those things in consideration in my opinion you take a bit of challenge away from insane difficulity and up.

Also even if you needed to get to a certain point in the map to change your hero loadout you can still start the map with the 3 base builders for your start defense and have your dps in there for wave 1 extra clearing. after that switch out 1 builder and finish your build. again in this whole process you only need 1 hero to walk around from point to point.

As for leveling up new characters i prefer that it feels like a chore. For me this is part of a game where you need to grind. The less effort it takes to get certain parts of the game done quickly because of an easy game design the less rewarding the progression will feel because you didn't put in the hours to reach that and was kinda given to you.

Again this is my opinion where i like every part of games i need to grind even if it's something mind numbing as leveling like how it was done in DD1. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, SaintsBC said:

For me this feels like the more recent pokémon games. The challenge is gone where you combat switched to level your lower level pokémon.

Leading with a low level Pokemon and switching to a high level first turn to one shot everything isn't a "challenge". There's nothing remotely difficult about it.

It's also not really an apt comparison given that Pokemon plays out quite differently to DD. You don't NEED to sit there for hours on end doing an incredibly boring task just to enjoy all of a Pokemon game.

55 minutes ago, SaintsBC said:

City in the cliffs has a 210 seconds of build time. So this way if we had the current system there we would have more than plenty of time.

... What? I'm struggling to understand the point behind this. Yes, we'll be able to build faster overall. That's also why build timers will be much shorter. You're comparing apples to oranges with no real point.

38 minutes ago, SaintsBC said:

With this i personally do not agree with you but that is just my take on grinding games like DD1/DDE, PoE, D3 and Pokémon

Well since you play PoE I'll give an analogy on why DD1's level gating and system is dumb. 

Imagine if once you beat A10 Kitava you had to go and spend like 15 hours hours AFKing in a level 10 zone with no rewards before being allowed to transition to maps. Except you can't fully AFK you have to run through a 2-3 minute long zone every 10-15 minutes. I love PoE enough to grind out a HH and a mirror every league but I sure as hell wouldn't be playing it if such dumb, unengaging gating was in place.

29 minutes ago, SaintsBC said:

You needed to have enough speed on your builders to make it around the map quick enough so that every crystal was well defended atleast for the first wave.

I mean, I just hopped on DD1 and checked and the actual cap on movement speed is very low. The rock is also the only thing I remember lowering speed and it's not a spectacular pet anyway. It's not like movement speed was some 200IQ part of the game you needed to constantly be on top of.

 

36 minutes ago, SaintsBC said:

the less rewarding the progression will feel because you didn't put in the hours to reach that and was kinda given to you.

I'm sorry but there's just about nothing rewarding about AFKing easy as hell content for hours on end. It's interesting that you talk so much about "challenge" and difficulty yet you'd rather people be gated by sheer time spent on easy as hell content than legitimate skill and challenges. 

  • Like 1
  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, SaintsBC said:

As for leveling up new characters i prefer that it feels like a chore.

"Chore". It's a game. If I wanted to waste my time doing nothing I'd watch grass grow for free. AFK power leveling up lowbies is nothing,  just nothing. Literally anything is a better use of my time. Like an IRL chore for instance.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Cuddles said:

Leading with a low level Pokemon and switching to a high level first turn to one shot everything isn't a "challenge". There's nothing remotely difficult about it.

It's also not really an apt comparison given that Pokemon plays out quite differently to DD. You don't NEED to sit there for hours on end doing an incredibly boring task just to enjoy all of a Pokemon game.

The reason i was mentioning this is because of the way it used to work that took more time to level things up and you had to use the hero you wanted to level up.(that is why i brought it up because the hero deck and XPshare feature being on permanently are similar) every grinding game has a few boring tasks D3 bounties are boring AF but still i feel like i need to do them because of the goods they give with that i can use then to either reroll gear for my current hero or use it on a new character and waste it on extracting things for in the cube to help levelling my new hero. Right now the whole every hero gets 100% XP for everything without having to be used feels like taking away a grind that i liked and what made getting to endgame more rewarding.

You can like that or not but that is my opinion. I like levelling even when i can afk through the rounds.It's something that i think is part of the game and shouldn't be made this easy.

 

24 minutes ago, Cuddles said:

... What? I'm struggling to understand the point behind this. Yes, we'll be able to build faster overall. That's also why build timers will be much shorter. You're comparing apples to oranges with no real point.

The point i was making is because of the whole hero swap that comes with defender decks you can make certain stats unnecessary, My main point was that movementspeed stats for builders were no longer needed. it's not about the buildtimer it's about needing to make use of certain stats. in DD1 you needed your builders to be fast to make sure you had enough defenses before the wave even started. 

If you are still unable to see that the calculation i was using is to prove my point on what impact the current system would have on specific stats compared to the old system than that is not on me. 

So i'll repeat myself again: Current herodeck system makes hero stats like movementspeed on builders no longer necessary. (this is in my opinion making the game easier and i personally like the game hard)

 

41 minutes ago, Cuddles said:

Well since you play PoE I'll give an analogy on why DD1's level gating and system is dumb. 

Imagine if once you beat A10 Kitava you had to go and spend like 15 hours hours AFKing in a level 10 zone with no rewards before being allowed to transition to maps. Except you can't fully AFK you have to run through a 2-3 minute long zone every 10-15 minutes. I love PoE enough to grind out a HH and a mirror every league but I sure as hell wouldn't be playing it if such dumb, unengaging gating was in place.

Yes because this is totally the same thing /s Again MY OPINION (kinda what this whole feedback post is all about) is that i in all honesty liked how DD1 did the leveling by letting you connect a controller for splitscreen or run an emulator. The kicker here is with every member that was extra in the game the dificulity increased so content became a bit harder.

This might not be a real challenge but it upped the challenge a bit. And to be fair never have i stated that you needed to level up through a low level zone. So the whole point with your PoE example does not make any sense.

So again long story short: MY OPINION the current way hero deck works with the XP gain being 100% for all the characters is something i disslike and what i personally would like to be changed. (because 1 i love to grind and 2 want the endgame for people who truly put time in it and not because of some gimmick reached max level on all char in no time)

 

52 minutes ago, Cuddles said:

I mean, I just hopped on DD1 and checked and the actual cap on movement speed is very low. The rock is also the only thing I remember lowering speed and it's not a spectacular pet anyway. It's not like movement speed was some 200IQ part of the game you needed to constantly be on top of.

Okay great! now let's see you try everything with 0 movementspeed increase on nightmare. it's not a 200iq thing but it's something that has been put in the game and can't be negated on harder content. 

 

56 minutes ago, Cuddles said:

I'm sorry but there's just about nothing rewarding about AFKing easy as hell content for hours on end. It's interesting that you talk so much about "challenge" and difficulty yet you'd rather people be gated by sheer time spent on easy as hell content than legitimate skill and challenges. 

Okay 2 seperate things here. in MY OPINION is that putting hours in a game like DD1 was felt really rewarding(again i like grinding). This is because for me putting hours in something to gather currency levelling alts etc. is all work to get to the endgame and when you finally beat the endgame it feels far more rewarding.

in MY OPINION endgame shouldn't be for everyone though you should be able to enjoy the game fully without the need to reach the endgame. If this means timegating through levelling or something else that sets appart players who will put in 1000 hours of gameplay to finish all the content and people who will play for a 100 hours and call it quits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do not under ANY Circumstamces  bring back the forge. The Deck swap system is working fine. Sod running back to the forge, why would you want to even suggest that, what’s the benefit. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At the end of the day we are talking about time and its value. In. If you like spending time leveling each character in a game and watch them grow and evolve during the game, then for you that time was well spent and had value. If replaying existing content on a new character gives a new perspective of the game that time would give you added value. I replayed a game in 24 characters that other than building them differently through 5 combinations from start to finish which took months because at each stage of progression my character was engaging in level appropriate parts of the game. Dungeon defenders main flaw is once you get to a certain point you dont want or need to replay content at lower difficulties that you currently at, replaying from scratch facing perhaps months of grinding just to play another hero doesnt really add value to the game. It might if all you wanted to do was complete the campaign in hard where only one hero would be needed. How we value our time is subjective and if getting to endgame needs a selection of heroes all geared and at max level how does one approach that grind. Everyone will have views on this, some might like a slower smoother relaxing grind, some might prefer a more hectic agressive grind etc. There isnt really a way that will satify everyone with how we like to spend our time being subjective, I connot say objectively it is better to spend my time watching a film than listening to music. I might prefer one over the other but thats subjective. using subjective points and trying to make them objectively better doesnt do either side of the debate any good. I ask which system gives players more choice, which system allows for more flexibility in how we play. then for me that system regardless of how I feel about it is the better system.

Points were made about speed boosting pets/items. I ask why were they even brought into the game? they were brought in becuase people couldnt complete the maps easily enough without them. this could of been solved by either removing the timers or increasing them to allow you to build the map in time as more heroes were introduced. If we are forced to use speed boosting items it then makes all other items pointless all being equal why would i use a pet with slightly better stats and lose a speed boost? It then makes every other pet unless it helps DPS worthless. Then add to the fact in survivaI speed boosting pets dont have any value since there is no timer. I fail to see a reasoning to why speed boosting pets even need to be a thing in DDA. If the hero deck gets rid of the need for them then why have them at all??? Maybe instead think of something else like a pet chaging how a tower behaves. Maybe have something similar to guardians but work slightly differently. Maybe have a pet that has a small area shielding you until shield is spent. There are many ways we could improve pets. Why is the only answer is to have an item that improves walking speed? Have we lost our imagination that the only item that could possibly improve how a building hero functions is how quickly it gets to point B from A?

Edited by dizzydiana

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Switchblade said:

Do not under ANY Circumstamces  bring back the forge. The Deck swap system is working fine. Sod running back to the forge, why would you want to even suggest that, what’s the benefit. 

Your awnser:

2 hours ago, SaintsBC said:

Like i said: The current state of how the hero deck now functions it makes hero movementspeed on builders obsolite. It's not a gamebreaking thing but it's taking something away what you needed to take in consideration in DD1. You needed to have enough speed on your builders to make it around the map quick enough so that every crystal was well defended atleast for the first wave. Again it's not gamebreaking but if you don't need to take those things in consideration in my opinion you take a bit of challenge away from insane difficulity and up.

 

24 minutes ago, dizzydiana said:

At the end of the day we are talking about time and its value. In. If you like spending time leveling each character in a game and watch them grow and evolve during the game, then for you that time was well spent and had value. If replaying existing content on a new character gives a new perspective of the game that time would give you added value. I replayed a game in 24 characters that other than building them differently through 5 combinations from start to finish which took months because at each stage of progression my character was engaging in level appropriate parts of the game. Dungeon defenders main flaw is once you get to a certain point you dont want or need to replay content at lower difficulties that you currently at, replaying from scratch facing perhaps months of grinding just to play another hero doesnt really add value to the game. It might if all you wanted to do was complete the campaign in hard where only one hero would be needed. How we value our time is subjective and if getting to endgame needs a selection of heroes all geared and at max level how does one approach that grind. Everyone will have views on this, some might like a slower smoother relaxing grind, some might prefer a more hectic agressive grind etc. There isnt really a way that will satify everyone with how we like to spend our time being subjective, I connot say objectively it is better to spend my time watching a film than listening to music. I might prefer one over the other but thats subjective. using subjective points and trying to make them objectively better doesnt do either side of the debate any good. I ask which system gives players more choice, which system allows for more flexibility in how we play. then for me that system regardless of how I feel about it is the better system.

I couldn't agree more. The whole reason i made this post is to let the devs know my personal opinion of the current state of the game and how i would like to see things in the game.

My reactions below that post were mere explanations as to why i have that point of view.

26 minutes ago, dizzydiana said:

Points were made about speed boosting pets/items. I ask why were they even brought into the game? they were brought in becuase people couldnt complete the maps easily enough without them. this could of been solved by eother remiving the timers or increasing them to allow you to build the map in time. If we are forced to use speed boosting items it then makes all other items pointless all being equal why would i use a pet with slightly better stats and lose a speed boost? It then makes every other pet unless it helps DPS worthless. I fail to see a reasoning to why speed boosting pets even need to be a thing in DDA. If the hero deck gets rid of the need for them then why have them at all???

True, but the point became that eventually the hero speed felt needed on higher difficulities and you had to take into consideration. The way it had value in DD1 was that it felt necessary to pump out as much defenses as possible to atleast hold wave 1. How it will have affect DDA is still to be seen. The way it looks now for me personally is that the only value it has is on dps to go around the map quickly but for anything else it's a dead stat that has 0 value. 

What's also a struggle for the devs is that we want different pets that all feel unique and every one of them has it's uses but they should not be gamebreaking of fixing for that matter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to add food for thought with the Summoner you didnt even need to walk anywhere you could sit in one spot click on mini map and place minions, upgrade defences or repair in overlord mode anywhere on the map and not take damage. So it wasnt always a factor on how quickly you could get anywhere.

 i agree hero speed was a factor in DD1, I just disagree on how it was handled as being the only option. They could of made base speed of the heroes more, increased timers, removed timers etc. If they are having to rebalance a game because more heroes are added or larger maps there has to be more than one solution to improve the experience. Adding in speed boosting pets meant you only had ONE viable option if you wanted to use all your heroes and build in time. Why limit the player to one option, why not think of another way that still allows players to use the pets they like. I hate being limited in my options, I hate feeling I am being forced into playing a certain way. I had enough of that in DD2 to last me a life time with limiting what defences I could use, what abilities I could use, what heroes I could DPS on. Perhaps DD2 has jaded me somewhat, but I do not want any sort of artificial difficulty on DDA, I want an actual challenge where my defences are tested, where my strategy lives or dies by how I place defences. That is what I find fun. It is also why i preferred survival and pure strategy over just running a map. It let me test strategies, it helped me learn combinantions and how well they work together. I experimented allot more outside of just completing a map.

Edited by dizzydiana

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SaintsBC said:

And to be fair never have i stated that you needed to level up through a low level zone. So the whole point with your PoE example does not make any sense.

You don't need to state it though because it's how the progression really works. I don't know how long it's been since you actually went all the way through DD1 from scratch but I did it recently and it wasn't pleasant.

I progressed all the way up to nightmare, got a bunch of early nightmare gear and then hit the "you really need multiple characters" wall and had to spend way too long AFKing my way through insane runs that were absolutely no challenge and provided me with basically nothing beyond experience since I had a bunch of higher tier gear.

There's no need for a game to have a bunch of arbitrary time gating that essentially amounts to what you call a "chore", especially if it's mandatory. If you enjoy that, then that's great, but it doesn't make it a good design choice nor does it make it any better for the game. Endgame players should be separated from the rest via how good they are at the game and a meaningful progression curve, not a bunch of inflated AFK gating. 

I'll admit that at this stage the 100% experience share seems a bit overboard but really it's still too early to say for sure. For all we know experience rates have been inflated for the beta or the full game is actually balanced around leveling quickly. 

2 hours ago, SaintsBC said:

Okay great! now let's see you try everything with 0 movementspeed increase on nightmare. it's not a 200iq thing but it's something that has been put in the game and can't be negated on harder content. 

My point is you don't need to try anything with no movement speed because by the time you're on difficulty settings with a build timer it takes one piece of gear with hero speed on it to cap out. The cap is so small and stat distribution so plentiful that it's almost a completely irrelevant stat.

2 hours ago, SaintsBC said:

in MY OPINION endgame shouldn't be for everyone though you should be able to enjoy the game fully without the need to reach the endgame.

I agree. But as I said, what sets apart people in the endgame from everyone else should be something with more substance and challenge than "afk through these easy maps for 20 hours". It's much more engaging and rewarding to know you're part of the endgame player base because you're actually good at the game than it is to know you're part of the endgame player base because you don't mind AFK leveling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So here is the thing. You don't want the hero deck to share your experience? Take your heroes out of it. Problem solved. I have no interest in not playing the game in order to level characters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Cuddles said:

You don't need to state it though because it's how the progression really works. I don't know how long it's been since you actually went all the way through DD1 from scratch but I did it recently and it wasn't pleasant.

I progressed all the way up to nightmare, got a bunch of early nightmare gear and then hit the "you really need multiple characters" wall and had to spend way too long AFKing my way through insane runs that were absolutely no challenge and provided me with basically nothing beyond experience since I had a bunch of higher tier gear.

There's no need for a game to have a bunch of arbitrary time gating that essentially amounts to what you call a "chore", especially if it's mandatory. If you enjoy that, then that's great, but it doesn't make it a good design choice nor does it make it any better for the game. Endgame players should be separated from the rest via how good they are at the game and a meaningful progression curve, not a bunch of inflated AFK gating. 

I'll admit that at this stage the 100% experience share seems a bit overboard but really it's still too early to say for sure. For all we know experience rates have been inflated for the beta or the full game is actually balanced around leveling quickly. 

Played it quite recently again. And yes i know that there is a wall of needing extra heroes. That is why i don't mind the splitscreen levelling because that came with the price of a difficulity increase.

In every game there should be a lvling part and that should feel meaningfull. if you only level one character and 3 characters level simultaneously to the same level your used character levels i honestly won't have a feeling of accomplishment. And thus in my opninion is the current state where 3 heroes in your deck getting full xp without having to contribute or anything a dumbing down of the game and giving a less meaningfull experience compared to how it was in DD1. it's not perfect but it game more satisfaction than how the hero deck is functioning right now.

2 hours ago, Cuddles said:

My point is you don't need to try anything with no movement speed because by the time you're on difficulty settings with a build timer it takes one piece of gear with hero speed on it to cap out. The cap is so small and stat distribution so plentiful that it's almost a completely irrelevant stat.

I honestly do not agree with this. You can get to insane and nightmare with with godly unlucky gear. With the high stats for towers they also came with huge drawbacks. technically you are easily able to have less than 100 hero speed stats once you reach insane. This also due to the gear in DD1 having negative stats.(in my opinion something they should definitly add in the future)

 

2 hours ago, tehslippery said:

So here is the thing. You don't want the hero deck to share your experience? Take your heroes out of it. Problem solved. I have no interest in not playing the game in order to level characters.

Wow! thanks for that increadibly great idea! You completly have read every point i made about this and you summarized it so well! Everyone should take an example of you're ability to contribute to a thread about discussing pro's and con's regarding anything /s

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

DD1 and progression as a whole has actually sped up from how it was at first, if you dont believe me I will gladly let you play it on my PS3 which more or less has the original progression grind. When I first went though DD1 after switching to PC from PS3 it took me a very long time to get to 74 and equip mythicals when the first shard map was introduced. I did the Endless spires wave one grind, I did the Glitterhelm AFK grind. There were no speed boosting pets, the best way to level was Gitterhelm Insane Hardcore until u had a full selection of heroes. you know why I remember it all these years later?? it was so damn annoying I never wanted to do it again. It made me quit the game once Kings game came around and the cap got increased to 78.

I got bored and frustrated with DD2, so I thought well allot has changed with DD1 maybe try it again, maybe it isnt as bad now? So i deleted every heroa and gear and got rid of my mana and started again. It took me TWO weeks to get almost back to where I left the game. There are so many more short cuts for both XP and loot its passed the point of dumbing it down imo. In ONE run of Tavern defensce Nightmare Pure Strategy I can level a hero from 0-78. A "whopping" 6 hours. Not weeks liked it used to 6 hours. You dont even need good stats to be able to do NMPS on that map. Maps Like Moonbase which can be run in 10 mins practically removed all need for doing TD survival runs that took 6 hrs for a decent kobold which were harder to do.Maps Like Lab Assualt which can easily be cheesed removed the insane survival grinds(infact even NMHCMM in campaign maps too became redundant).

I understand why hero decks feels like it dumbs down the game, but I argue what DD1 did was WAY worse. in that respect.

Edited by dizzydiana
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...