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Fatheredpuma81

(11/27 Tower Opinions)4 Bugs + 1200 Hour DD1/0 Hour DD2 Player's detailed opinions

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So I've decided to update this and make it better. My old post was horrible so hopefully this is laid out better.

Summary of My DD1 Experience:
So let's get some things out of the way. I've played 1250 hours into Dungeon Defenders and due to me joining in late 2013, being instantly level to 70 something on some characters in a public game, doing the events, and selling my event items for gear, almost all of my 1250 hours except the first 100 hours of it were spent in late game and everything post 400 hours can be considered end game. I gave away all my gear at around 500-600 or something hours in to a friend and then quit the game in spring of 2014. Afterwards I came back around 2015, got some trans sets and some of the last event items from the same friend and decided to 100% ignore trading with the exceptions of gifts from certain friends. Afterwards I had significantly more fun with the game and i'd say graduated from Adept to likely somewhere between Advanced and Expert sometime after. I then went on to create level 30 characters with 2k stats wearing Cursed gear and Turtle on Treadmill's and level 70 characters with 3-5k stats wearing Godly armor and the fair few event items I had which gave me at least another 200 hours of enjoyment out of the game from joining random lobbies with them.
I'd say the main source of enjoyment for me was actually spending my time farming for my gear (cursed with decent stats is really difficult to get) rather and mana rather than buying likely modified items and cheated in mana from cheaters for Cubes I got from doing some even that cost me an hour of my time.

 

Why did I Pre-Order DDA?: (11/26)
Honestly I preordered Dungeon Defenders: Awakened because the kickstarter made it sound like we'd be getting essentially a remaster of the original Dungeon Defenders with a harder difficulty, more QoL, a few more characters, more maps, better network and FPS performance, and really a much smoother game overall. I thought this game was supposed to be for the players who put hundreds of hours into the original and more of a pitstop before Dungeon Defenders 3 where the real changes would come.

 

Thoughts about the DDA Beta:
I currently have 19 hours the DDA Beta, am wearing all Legendary, and have beaten the Lava Mine map on Insane Survival.
Honestly to me Dungeon Defenders: Awakened feels like the Original Dungeon Defenders recreated for the players of Dungeon Defenders 2 right now. There's so much that has changed compared to Dungeon Defenders that I honestly can't call this a real sequel Dungeon Defenders yet. There is a lot of stuff just outright missing and a ton of things changed to suit the needs of likely console players and more likely DD2 players. It's actually hard to figure out where to start with this because there's so much to go through.
Why did I pre-order DDA edit: Sadly this is simply just a sequel to Dungeon Defenders 2 really. We've lost maps, (probably) lost characters, and haven't gained any performance really. Hell the AI has even changed considerably to be a lot more different than the original. Right now this is quite simply Dungeon Defenders 3 under a time crunch and not an almost remaster built for them. 
I'm actually glad I preordered this supposed remaster so I can at least make my voice heard. I have many friends with tons of hours and some with 5k hours who didn't because they were unsure if they could put another 5000 into it (despite them still opening up DD regularly). If the game in the end isn't what I was looking for at least I can say that I tried and finally put this series to rest.

 

So Let's Just Start Off with Important Things: (IN ORDER OF IMPORTANCE TO ME)

  1.  There are now Forced Levels, EXP share, and Items (likely) now have Random Levels: 
          This is a big deal because I along with many others have created characters with specific levels catered around specific gear (Cursed-Lv 0+, Godly-Lv 60 to 73 and Mythical-Lv 74 to 77 being the most popular). (Likely) having random item levels from the new item system obviously destroys this but having forced levels along with forced EXP share just outright
    obliterates this and removes it as an option. This is going to literally remove quite a lot of hours of enjoyment for some (including me).
         EDIT: I should probably say though why the current loot system is bad. There is no reward for getting to late game period. What do you get? Oh your 1000th legendary? Where's the reward? You can get Legendaries all throughout the game so getting your 1000th even if it's ludicriously high power level likely feels like the 999th legendary despite it having a powerlevel triple that of your old one. At least in DD1 you would get excited about getting an Ult++ because they're so insanely rare. 
         Idea: At least remove forced levels, please combine the old system of Cursed/Godly/Mythical/Trans/Supreme/Ult/etc with the new system with set levels so we can get Common/Uncommon/Epic/Legendary Mythical Gear with the level requirement of 74, and please at least reduce the shared EXP to something like 20%. Leveling up to 100 wasn't that big a deal in DD and that's without EXP share. I don't care if some casual can't get to level 100 on all their chars in 100 hours it just lowers the gate to end game.
         Idea: EDIT: Also add more like Ultimate X (10) for massacre difficulty on the hardest maps that's extremely rare or at the absolute bare minimum add more tiers above Legendary because you're literally ruining end game for people for no reason.
  2.  ***Speculation*** Items will now have One Click Upgrade System: 
          This could easily be the biggest game ender for DDA and should be #1 but isn't because it's speculation only. The grayed out 'Upgrade' system, the way the stats for armor is laid out, the fact there's only 1 armor stat, and most importantly the way the damage, elemental damage, and projectile speed are laid out on weapons honestly makes me feel like this could really be a thing. You click "Upgrade" and it upgrades certain stats rather than letting you choose manually. At the absolute least the "Upgrade" button should bring you to an early page where you'd upgrade your item with a "Not Available" plastered all over it unless the UI isn't there.
         Idea: There isn't one. Just hope it's wrong.
  3. Negative Stat Items and Physical/Elemental Resistances: 
          They're missing... this is an absolutely huge part of Dungeon Defenders "Can I take the -100 hit to that stat?" "Can I deal with the negative armor stats on my builder?", etc. It just dumbs down the late game really. 
         Idea: Bring them back. If the 'Armor' scales logarithmically and is built around having like 2000 armor late game keep it how it is.
  4. So much QoL Missing: (These are all very important)
    Honestly i'm just going to use this part to go through what DD1 has and I WILL miss things:
           1. Upgrade/Repair aimbot
           2. Upgrade/Repair Tower Cycle
           3. Upgrade/Repair on Tower/Entire Aura
           4. Can Change FOV
           5. Middle Mouse Tower/Hero/Sell/Upgrade/Repair/etc Wheel (see DD1)
           6. Hover Over-Rebind (Hover mouse over tower in wheel and press and hold any number and it binds to that- Please extend further)
           7. Automatic item compared on ground and in inventory
           8. Items on 'minimap'
           9. Item filter for 'minimap'
           10 Ping location (C in game)
           11. UI Uses Entire Screen (transparency? smaller inventory window? compact mode? resizable?)
           12. Old Tower Wheel built for mouse usage
           13. Lightening Ethereal Spike Trap (To go along with Poison Gas Trap)
           14. Shortcut key's like 'L' for Lock + easy rebind
           15. Tower Upgrade Icons are missing and the replacement sucks (make it optional)
           16. 3rd person freecam (to look at your own face)
           17. Survival wave chooser
           18. Map statistics (Best time, best score, etc)
           19. CTRL + G force wave start
           20. Kick feature
           21. Host able to tell towers
           22. Host can unlock tower selling for everyone.
    /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
      *Placeholder for when I add more and change Title date*
           23.
    Idea: Add them. :P
  5. New QoL:
           1. Hide Filter for items on ground. (let me hide Common's from ever showing up on my screen)
           2. Top down tower placement sensitivity options. (way too fast for me)
           3. As many items on the ground as I want (let me choose how many items should be on the ground. Combo's with #1)
           4. Option to remove chat filter (maybe hide it somewhere)
           5. Stop censoring random non-English words (No //////// = No Bueno)
           6. Stop censoring terribly ("Holy ////// I can't wait for Nightmare and //////// difficulty" "Holy S*** I can't wait for Nightmare and MASSACRE difficulty." (* = self censored not game censored) (yes you can bypass it by doing all caps)
           7. 1-2 Second time delay between boss intro and button skipping. (I thought I got a lag spike after beating Lab while my friend was watching the intro because I pressed a button before it opened)
           8. Volume control works for cinematics (muted game in game and still had cinematic audio)
           9. Host can unlock tower selling feature for specific player individually
    /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
      *Placeholder for when I add more and change Title date*
           10.
    Idea: Add some of them.
  6. FPS Lock
         There's an FPS lock.
         Idea: Unlock it by default and add the option to choose FPS limit.
  7. Monster Pathing is Terrible:
          The pathing is not at all consistent honestly. The mobs will hyper focus the crystal which is completely different from DD1 where you could use a combination of Darkness Trap and/or good tower placement to make the mobs go and attack your towers instead of the crystal (see Sky City, Embermount, etc). At the same time an Ogre will turn around to attack you instead of your defenses and mobs will attack your defenses instead of walking past them if they can (haven't tested 2nd but I assume it's like that). You can literally hit a mob up a slight ledge and then they'll walk past your entire defense, drop down a 5 foot ledge, and attack your crystal.
         idea: Make them either like DD1 where they'll attack you and your towers over the crystal OR make them hyper focus the crystal and ignore your towers and you if their path isn't being blocked by them. Also please make them want to get back on the designated path so I don't accidentally not a Goblin up a ledge and they 1 shot my crystal on massacre difficulty...
  8. Please bring back team play: (Cat, Monk, etc)
          Honestly I find it extremely saddening to see the game massively going away from team play. I really liked having each player doing something specific to boost the DPS of a player and
          as a result being able to solo a boss with a cat, monk boost, fairy etc. Now it's literally just "Every man for him self. Your DPS shows how much you helped in the boss fight." which is      
          absurdly stupid.
         Idea: Bring back and ADD more ways to help your team. Fairy, Cat, Monk Hero Boost, etc, etc. 
  9. Tower Balancing:
          Honestly i'm not going to cover this that much. You can find this everywhere. Fireball tower and traps are overpowered. Lightening tower, harpoon, aura, etc by comparison are weak, etc. 
         Idea: Please balance them around early AND late game. REMOVE THE HARPOON PIERCE LIMIT :).
  10. Rewards Should Always Stats:
          I think rewards from maps (campaign/survival/etc) should ALWAYS no matter but have stats.
         Idea: Make them have stats no matter what.
  11. Performance and Network Performance is horrifically bad:
          Protip: Lower shadows for massive FPS increase during wave. Performance and Network performance are quite possibly WORSE than the original DD. What's the point in a new Engine if the performance isn't better?
         Idea: Make it better lol.
  12. Make Higher Item Qualities more Rare: (Legendaries)
          If we're copying Borderlands might as well go all the way... I already have a full Legendary set in a few hours of playing... I LITERALLY ignore anything below Legendary now. What's the point in having the other qualities if they're quite literally worthless? Also make them stronger to go with this.
         Idea: Make Legendary and Epic much more rare and make them much better stat wise.
  13. Mana is EXTREMELY Limited in Survival and is ugly in general:
          You get 3000 mana on Wave 3 of Lab and then 300 on Wave 4. What is this?! Really?! It literally took me until wave 21 to upgrade all my towers to the 2nd to last upgrade.  Honestly it's annoying. Also the mana looks really bad and has no dynamic movement making it a literal downgrade from DD1.
         Idea: Reverse it. Make mana super plentiful the further you go into survival but difficult to get earlier on so you can feel satisfied when your towers are all upgraded. Also bring back dynamic movement and make it look good again.
  14. Maps are WAY WAY too long in Survival:
          Took me 5 hours to complete Lava Mine map on Insane Survival... at best I wasted 30 minutes. Put something in so we can speed it up there are way too many breaks. This probably won't be as a big deal in Nightmare and ///////////// (sorry I typed massacre with a capital M).
    Idea:
     Somehow make them faster.
  15. Mana Chests, F1-F4, and infinite thinking time:
          I honestly really hate the fact I don't have to care about having hero speed anymore. What's the point in having it if you can just walk where you want with a fast hero, press F2, press G, Build, Press F4, walk to place, build, rinse and repeat until you press G again. I know you tried balancing it by giving us infinite time to think and then giving us no time to build but honestly it's not fun.
         Idea: At least give us the option. I honestly really dislike the new way. I liked having a hectic race to pick up mana and build at the beginning of each map rather than infinite time to think about what I want to do and then do it in what feels like 10 seconds.
  16. Idea for splitscreen rewards/maybe exp: (posted 2 hours after readability update on 11/25)
          I honestly don't know where this should go right now but I thought I should get this out there. Essentially running 4x splitscreen in DD1 is extremely OP and really hurts teamplay so I came up with a solution. 
         Idea: A Logarithmic scaler that allows you to get multiple rewards without splitscreen. Essentially you turn it to 4x and you get 4x rewards at the cost of a difficulty increase. Disables splitscreen rewards entirely and the higher you increase it the harder the game gets (4x rewards = 8x difficulty increase and 8x rewards = 20x difficulty increase for random example). Chromatic Games sets the max number they deem suitable. Could somehow also scale this into EXP like 8x EXP for a char.
     

 

TOWER BREAKDOWN: (Added 11/27/2019)

  • Huntress:
    Gas(5/10) - Useful early game, not so useful later on but still not useless later on.
    Proxy(7/10) - Very good especially early game and early on. Can 1 shot most mobs with a nice AOE. Later on can be used to stop Kobolds and also help weaken enemies with reaonsable HP.
    Inferno Trap(3/10) - Discount Electric Aura with less damage, less range, and a massive cooldown. 
    Darkness(1/10) - Worthless, utterly worthless. Don't bother. They just stun enemies for around 1 second and remove their resistances for that 1 second. Also does not reset AI targeting like DD1.
    Thunder Spike Trap(6/10) - Very powerful against ogres however worthless against normal mobs. Attacks mobs seemingly at random for tons of damage.
  • Squire: 
    Spiked Blockade(9/10) - Very high health, great for blocking enemy routes. 100% must have even though Kobolds sometimes ignore it and run right past.
    Harpoon Turret(6/10) - Worse version of Apprentice's Flameburst tower. Has slower fire rate, considerably less damage, 6 mob pierce (not sure what FB has for splash), doesn't have splash, and 1 upside is it has slightly better range.
    Bouncer Blockade(2/10) - hahahahaha you're funny. It's terrible.
    Bowling Ball Turret(7/10) - Actually pretty good. Has high DPS although is severly limited by the fact that the only maps in the Beta you can use it on are the ones from DD1 (DDA not built with it in mind).
    Slice and Dice(3/10) - Pretty bad DPS however seems to stun weaker enemies. Enemies seem to also like walking past it if allowed (including archers sometimes). Not recommended though even if it's a better Bouncer Blockade due to low health.
  • Apprentice:
    Elemental Barrier(4/10) - Costs 1 DU meaning if you have a THP focused APP it could come in handy on certain maps to block kobolds. Would suggest Spiked Blockade though instead. You also have to place 2 or more in many cases due to the hyper focused AI.
    Magic Missile Tower(5/10) - DU costs are pretty cheap, good tower to have guard your crystal from the hyper focused AI that leaks past, meh DPS, fast fire rate, and has no element making it good backup against wyverns.
    Flameburst Tower(10/10) - Very high damage, good AOE, good attack rate, okay range, and overall the best tower in the game by far. Only weakness is guarding against Wyverns if you don't have big aura's.
    Lightning Tower(1/10) - Garbage.
    Deadly Striker Tower(7/10) - Very high damage per hit, okay fire rate, insane range, and overall great vs ogres and bad for normal mobs. However it seems to like shooting at walls for some reason? Would be even better if it could shoot through walls though.
  • Monk:
    Ensnare Aura(9/10) - Slows enemies down. A must have.
    Electric Aura(7/10) - Does okay damage with a very wide AOE, HP is okay though. A must have to kill Kobolds.
    Healing Aura(-10/10) - Shouldn't be in the game. It's literally worthless. You can heal in 2 seconds by pressing 3. By the time you walk into it you could have healed 10x over in most cases. 
    Strength Drain Aura(10/10) - God tier. Lowers damage dealth by enemies and also removes elemental resistance. It even has a wide AOE. Only downside is it has very low health.
    Enrage Aura(5/10) - Not the worst but not the best. I hear it can stop Kobolds from attacking your towers. It essentially causes a giant blockage making it a slightly better Ensnare aura if the AI doesn't hyperfocus the crystal. Haven't used enough though to say how often this is though but it seems to be fairly low.
     
  • Generic Strategy: 
    Spiked Blockade's to block paths, with Ensnare, Electric, and Str. Drain Aura stack with SB just barely inside the aura, Thunder Trap just far enough so ogre's can reliably be hit by it, Proxy a bit ahead of Thunder but still well within aura, and as many Flameburst Turrets as possible behind the Spiked Blockade.

 

Bugs:

  1. If you select a map you can play on and then change the difficulty you can press confirm and play on the higher difficulty.
  2. Friends characters were reset while joining and rejoining my game repeatedly (also when I started game while he was joining he got stuck in loading screen - might have caused this).
  3. Kobolds just go through your defenses and kill your crystal ignoring everything in the way? (Or something like that?)
  4. Mages revive Skeletons on the other side of your walls and they attack the crystal because monster pathing. Or they revive them on top of ledges so they can walk around and attack crystal.

 

So I spent 2 hours typing and fixing this. i'll be updating this later in the future with positives for the game and other various things. When I do i'll make a post below along with changing the title and putting the dates for things added after for those who have read this if it's major enough. I honestly hope DDA will hold up to DD1 but they only have 3 months to add and change so so so so much...

Edited by Fatheredpuma81
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I think what you're not considering is this is a beta, this doesn't reflect what the end experience will be like upon full release. Now, onto some of your points...

  • The wheel is definitely slower than just hitting Q/R/Z to upgrade/repair/sell your tower. Once you learn the hotkeys (which doesn't take long at all) is much faster. The only thing that needs improvements is the auto-targeting because as it is, upgrading auras and traps stacked on top of each other is nigh impossible.
  • Item comparing works when the item is in your inventory, you can hold Shift to compare them. Not sure why they didn't add that to the items on the ground, shouldn't be that hard to do. It'll definitely be there during the full release I'm sure though.
  • Ctrl changes your camera angle while placing towers to what you were talking about, but it's still not perfect.
  • I rather like the shared EXP, though I think 100% to all four heroes is a bad idea. I think the other 3 should get 25% of the EXP, so you can level up your heroes without replaying a map with all of them multiple times, but you still have an incentive to use the hero you want to level up the most. It should be noted you can only level up 4 heroes at once, so if you want four DPS and four tower heroes, you'll have to pick and choose which to level (though it's not an issue because respecing your points is free right now, so you can turn your tower hero into a DPS hero at any time if you want to).
  • I like the tower wheel, I find it not letting me select certain towers at times (so I'm forced to use the hotkeys), but I suspect this is something that will be fixed by the full release.
  • The Ethereal Spike Trap in DD1 does lightning damage, renaming it to the Thunder Spike Trap helps keep consistency and makes the damage type it deals more clear. This was a very nitpicky argument in the first place.
  • Mana is SUPER limited in survival. I am constantly struggling to get towers to the 5th tier (700 mana upgrade), and if I do, for the next couple of rounds I'm struggling to repair my towers because auras and traps are in constant need of repairs every round and I'm not given enough mana to deal with it. This is something I really hope they fix. It's a shame the main mode people will spend most of their time in on this beta is messed up so badly.
  • I'm not sure what you mean by right click upgrade?
  • The infinite time before the build wave is only for the first wave, it's not that big of a deal. If you're playing on a difficulty where you don't have that already (insane and up), you've probably already played the map before and have an idea as to what your strategy will be. Besides, what's the hard in letting you think up a strategy in a strategy game? You can't build or anything until you start the clock so who cares?
  • The instant character swap is SUCH a nice QoL addition. Be glad it's not like DDII, where I'm pretty sure you can swap your heroes even in the middle of the battle phase.
Edited by Nelots
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13 minutes ago, Nelots said:

I think what you're not considering is this is a beta, this doesn't reflect what the end experience will be like upon full release. Now, onto some of your points...

  • The wheel is definitely slower than just hitting Q/R/Z to upgrade/repair/sell your tower. Once you learn the hotkeys (which doesn't take long at all) is much faster. The only thing that needs improvements is the auto-targeting because as it is, upgrading auras and traps stacked on top of each other is nigh impossible.
  • Item comparing works when the item is in your inventory, you can hold Shift to compare them. Not sure why they didn't add that to the items on the ground, shouldn't be that hard to do. It'll definitely be there during the full release I'm sure though.
  • Ctrl changes your camera angle while placing towers to what you were talking about, but it's still not perfect.
  • I like the tower wheel, I find it not letting me select certain towers at times (so I'm forced to use the hotkeys), but I suspect this is something that will be fixed by the full release.
  • The Ethereal Spike Trap in DD1 does lightning damage, renaming it to the Thunder Spike Trap helps keep consistency and makes the damage type it deals more clear. This was a very nitpicky argument in the first place.
  • I'm not sure what you mean by right click upgrade?

It is however i'd like there to also be the wheel option as well. Also you can upgrade by looking at the icons above the stack.
Found out the shift thing literally less than 5 minutes before i stopped playing by complete and total accident lol.
I too like the tower wheel. Although I don't like using it I do like having the option to.
It is a very nitpicky argument however I really liked the name "ethereal spike" instead of "thunder spike". I just sounds so much cooler when you know what Ethereal means.
Right Click any item in your inventory and it just says "Upgrade". I also elaborated in an edit what I meant.

 

Edit: I honestly need to think about how i'm going to layout a post before I go and edit the thing 10 times again.

Edited by Fatheredpuma81
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I agree with most of that. The more options the better, if some people prefer the old wheel there is no harm in letting them use one. I do like the Thunder Spike Trap though, it sounds cool while also being consistent and informative. If I recall correctly, the Ethereal Spike Trap was the only tower in the game that used ethereal (though I never used much of the DLC characters so I'm not entirely sure), while it did the same damage type as the lightning aura and the lightning tower, making thunder far more consistent. The word thunder sounds more deadly than lightning (which I find funny), so the tower name still has some oomph to it, while also relaying to the player that it uses lightning damage. Ethereal doesn't necessarily mean lightning at all, so I think thunder works better.

 

And about the right-click upgrade, I personally don't think it's anything to worry about. I really like the pick-an-upgrade system from DD1, and I'm pretty sure most people do. As far as there being an upgrade button, I think it's more or less just a UI thing, they put a lot of effort into trying to keep it "clean" (and boring/soulless IMO). Considering you can end up with items giving you upgrades to every stat, upgrading every one at once seems like a horrible balance decision as well.

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20 minutes ago, Nelots said:

And about the right-click upgrade, I personally don't think it's anything to worry about. I really like the pick-an-upgrade system from DD1, and I'm pretty sure most people do. As far as there being an upgrade button, I think it's more or less just a UI thing, they put a lot of effort into trying to keep it "clean" (and boring/soulless IMO). Considering you can end up with items giving you upgrades to every stat, upgrading every one at once seems like a horrible balance decision as well.

Yes but I've sadly seen worse. Although I honestly have 0 trust in developers these days so I hope you are right. The only dev I even remotely trust id Hopoo Games (creators of Risk of Rain 2). I mean Chromatic Games hasn't shown they are trust worthy honestly. The only things I've seen is them saying how they're going to be adding tons of QoL stuff to DDA which only a couple months out is missing so so much stuff especially compared to DD1 after the Community Devs so I honestly can't put it past that they might try a radical change to the game at this point in time. Although then again I also didn't put it past them to have this an an Epique exclusive so......

I guess i'm a pessimistic when it comes to game developers really.

 

1 hour ago, Nelots said:

I rather like the shared EXP, though I think 100% to all four heroes is a bad idea. I think the other 3 should get 25% of the EXP, so you can level up your heroes without replaying a map with all of them multiple times, but you still have an incentive to use the hero you want to level up the most. It should be noted you can only level up 4 heroes at once, so if you want four DPS and four tower heroes, you'll have to pick and choose which to level (though it's not an issue because respecing your points is free right now, so you can turn your tower hero into a DPS hero at any time if you want to).

This is EXTREMELY bad for 1 major reason. I really like having characters who are overpowered for their level. In DD1 I could have a level 0 wearing Cursed gear with like 2k stats if I was lucky enough and farmed Cursed gear long enough.

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I think it comes down to perspective and which of the 3 DD games you played and liked (yes some people actually preferred DDE over either of the other 2) how you come down on DDA. DDA is weird since it tries to be more than one version of DD at the same time. Its not really DD1 DDE or DD2 its bits of all 3 thrown in the same pot. The thing is if you make it too much like DD1 then people who prefer DD2 wont want to buy it, make it too much like DD2 and Dd1 players hate it, make it something else and everyone hates it. They took rightly or wrongly an approach to try to keep all other players happy enough to buy DDA so going forward they will get each game as they release it (they already mentioned this is a steeping stone to DD3). I spent over double my hours in DD1 compared to DD2. I cannot know for sure the excat amount of playtime since I switched platforms on both (xbox 360,ps3 and pc dd1 ps4 and pc dd2).  I see why they took some of their design choices. There are still other things we dont know yet and have to wait for release. We dont know how the difficulty spike will be from insane to NM to Massacre. We dont know how split screen players will get loot (esp end game rewards). 

I feel your complaining about the wrong thing with the issue with hero decks making things feel too easy. In DD1 almost everyone I know will load in extra toons just for the map reward either with a controller or an emulator. Is having 3 afk toons really three times harder than using one toon with a hero deck? harder possibly 3 times as much certainly not (going by your 25% xp on others in deck). Having 4 times the rewards and loot for 3 afk toons NOW there is an advantage  and I would argue that advantage out weighs any that a hero deck gives.

I acknowledge you point about legendaries but that doesnt factor in the Item power. Item power is what basically replaces things like mythic - Ultimate ++. If i am right as it is implemented similar to DD2 then there will be many times when even a Green item will be better than your current Legendary. Since rarities persist through all difficulties you will still get green items when you go from one difficulty to the next. Complaining that legendaries are better is like saying I dont like Mythical because allI I do now is farm for Mythical and not Godly when there is still Trans, Supreme, Ultimate etc after Mythical. Your not going to stay in Mythical to do the latest Maps where you need stats that just not possible with even the most perfect of rolled Mythics. You will switch out gear to get the minimum stats needed at the very least if not even keep grinding to get the perfectly rolled Ult++. rarity loses value in a system like this getting a legendary item doesnt quite feel the same as it used to. Bragging about finding a 7k Item power item jsut doesnt souind as cool as saying I got my first Supreme today! I think thats why people dont like Item power being a thing. Cool names are always better than just a number(for most of us). It makes somewhat confusing that you have both rarity and item power and both things affect how good that item is - how many different stats how high they could roll ect both being determined by some combination. 800ipwr rare item will roll worse than a 800 legendary but better than a 400 legendary.

Edited by dizzydiana

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15 minutes ago, dizzydiana said:

I feel your complaining about the wrong thing with the issue with hero decks making things feel too easy. In DD1 almost everyone I know will load in extra toons just for the map reward either with a controller or an emulator. Is having 3 afk toons really three times harder than using one toon with a hero deck? harder possibly 3 times as much certainly not (going by your 25% xp on others in deck). Having 4 times the rewards and loot for 3 afk toons NOW there is an advantage  and I would argue that advantage out weighs any that a hero deck gives.

Thank you so much for reminding me. I KNEW I was forgetting something and it was specifically about splitscreen and is very important. Added #16.

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2 minutes ago, Fatheredpuma81 said:

Thank you so much for reminding me. I KNEW I was forgetting something and it was specifically about splitscreen and is very important. Added #16.

NP, although I still contend a hero deck isnt that more difficult than using an emulatior in Pure Strategy where you dont have to do anything for no extra difficulty and still level 4 heroes.  Pure Strategy does not increase mob count or moib health etc doesnt put the afk heroes in any danger etc. I fail to see how emulating controllers, gaining 4 times is loot is worse than using one hero to level 4 heroes for one reward.

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9 hours ago, dizzydiana said:

NP, although I still contend a hero deck isnt that more difficult than using an emulatior in Pure Strategy where you dont have to do anything for no extra difficulty and still level 4 heroes.  Pure Strategy does not increase mob count or moib health etc doesnt put the afk heroes in any danger etc. I fail to see how emulating controllers, gaining 4 times is loot is worse than using one hero to level 4 heroes for one reward.

it isn't however you're thinking about it incorrectly. People did something slightly unintended by using a system built for multiple players for 1 player. So you don't just give it to literally everyone. Instead you give everyone the exact same thing they had (where are my 4x loots by default?) but rather you give them options. If you want to level up all your characters at once you can use the splitscreen thing. If you want to super fast level 1 character you can just use my idea of a logarithmic EXP and loot scale (maybe make the loot and EXP idea separate). It just doesn't feel right leveling all my characters who are doing nothing up at once. Also does this even stop splitscreen leveling? Won't this make it worse if each split screen can use their own character or even worse their own hero deck? What happens then? We'll just have people leveling up 7-16 characters at once.........

Edited by Fatheredpuma81

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I suppose to clarify things my point is the Hero deck does not by itself REMOVE the advantage of running in split screen. It might add to the advantage but not remove it. Where does One player with a hero deck have an advantage over one player not having one and using split screen. The issue for me is the Split screen advantage no matter how you look at ii way outshines any advantage a hero deck does playing solo. Where would you rather use a Hero Deck over using another controller? Where is having a hero deck actually better than having an emulator or extra controllers? It does not become twice as difficult when two players are in the match, but twice the loot will drop. It will increase difficulty  but not double it. The only fix is to limit loot by account so no matter how many screens were being played you get the same reward - NO xp for extra players, NO extra loot etc. The issue though with that is what if it is ACTUALLY more than one person sharing the account for money reasons , maybe they cannot afford another copy, maybe they are on PC and cannot load 2 steams at once without issue. It would penalise those legitimate split screen players. I dont have the answer but saying the problem lies with the hero Deck is looking at the issue from the wrong angle. Remove split screen alltogether and then MAYBE your point stands that the hero deck alone is the issue.

Edited by dizzydiana

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On 11/22/2019 at 11:16 PM, Fatheredpuma81 said:

New QoL:
1. Hide Filter for items on ground. (let me hide Common's from ever showing up on my screen)

I would like this too. There is just no good reason to force you into having to see all the junk that drops that you will never even look at. It's only purpose is to be annoying and in the way when you're trying to actually look at something else. Please add as many optional filters as possible.
 

Quote

Idea for splitscreen rewards/maybe exp: (posted 2 hours after first update)
      I honestly don't know where this should go right now but I thought I should get this out there. Essentially running 4x splitscreen in DD1 is extremely OP and really hurts teamplay so I came up with a solution. 
     Idea: A Logarithmic scaler that allows you to get multiple rewards without splitscreen. Essentially you turn it to 4x and you get 4x rewards at the cost of a difficulty increase. Disables splitscreen rewards entirely and the higher you increase it the harder the game gets (4x rewards = 8x difficulty increase and 8x rewards = 20x difficulty increase for random example). Chromatic Games sets the max number they deem suitable. Could somehow also scale this into EXP like 8x EXP for a char.

The problem is that, like any ideas that have been given on the forums, this penalizes people playing split-screen legitimately. This is similar to having split-screen players share the same loot and having a single map reward. Both ways you're missing out on loot. A solution could be to have split-screen players logged in on the same account share the same loot and hero deck since they're all playing the player one's characters. While making the loot obtained playing split-screen, while logged in on different accounts, untradeable.

Edited by Windex

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Decided to finally do a tower breakdown. Not the greatest breakdown in the world but oh well. Please let me know your thoughts.

Edit: Added color :D!

Edited by Fatheredpuma81
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I appreciate your most recent update @Fatheredpuma81. I found that this post to be allot more productive than your initial one.  Since you havent thus far experimented much with the enrage auras I will add this here. Enrage auras to me seem to act more similar to a gas trap than how they functioned in DD1. In dd1 when mobs would aggro to each other it never really felt useful for the du cost. In dda it more or less stun locks mobs and makes Kobolds suicide themselves to some degree there by taking pressure of your walls. With enrage auras you can do away with ensares entirely at present in your builds. I do believe though at higher difficulties once the ensnare aura slows down enemies to a crawl the enrage may lose some of its value due to its higher DU cost. 

Let me explain where my head is at and my personal position:

I have played over 4k hours in DD1 between the 3 platforms and only around 2k hrs on DD2 so I think its fair to say I much preferred DD1. I never saw DDA as a remastered DD1, when I watched the Friday streams and looked through the KS it seemed obvious to me that DDA was something else. Would I of liked a remaster of DD1? yes, but only for consoles, which never got to experience the updates etc that PC got. Myself and many others constantly posted for DD1 to be released for XB1 and PS4 and were always told they were not interested in a remake of DD1. I was excited that their new game was going to be "more like DD1" than DD2. I played as both games evolved watched the changes from the developers (did quit dd1 for a few years so didnt see much of the cdt updates until more recently). I would call myself average in skill, I am in no way a top tier player in either game. I liked the huge difficulty spike going from Insane HC to Nightmare. For me the strategy is where the fun was, devising new builds, I liked the challenge that came from trying to work out the best way to deal with enemies etc. 

Levelling New heroes

This is where I disagree more than any point you raise in your post. I will try to explain how I see levelling heroes to possibly explain why I dont see it from the same angle as you.

Does having a level 100 instantly make you be able to complete the content? - Yes if all you want to do is insane campaign and nothing else. Otherwise you are still going to be spending possibly months looking for that perfect drop to get you through the hardest maps and survivals. 

Is getting a level 100 hard? - Not really you can get boosted by other players running XP maps. You can build with your strongest hero and switch and AFK until the end of map if solo.

Is levelling a new hero giving you an entirely new way to experience the game.? Not really, I dont  see a time you would play through every map on just the new hero until that hero reached the difficulty your strongest one is. It does add to the ability to strategise your builds, but ONLY once the hero is in the same place as your older hero.

Does slowing down leveling of new heroes do anything other than just add time to your already long grind? This I just fail to see. Perhaps I am missing something in how adding time can be enjoyable to a game that can already take over 1000 hours just farming loot. I do not disagree that the hero deck shortent the time spent leveling, I just dont agree that it alters the actual difficulty in the game.

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4 hours ago, dizzydiana said:

Does slowing down leveling of new heroes do anything other than just add time to your already long grind? This I just fail to see. Perhaps I am missing something in how adding time can be enjoyable to a game that can already take over 1000 hours just farming loot. I do not disagree that the hero deck shortent the time spent leveling, I just dont agree that it alters the actual difficulty in the game.

Really leveling your hero's up doesn't do much other than letting you use stronger gear. Still though investing the time to get all your main hero's to level 100 should be seen as an achievement not something every player will do within their first 100 to 200 hours of playing the game. Maybe if they cut the overall EXP gain (wouldn't be a fan personally) or maybe increased the level cap or removed it entirely (which could open an entirely new grind) I could see this as being fine but as it stands i'm still really not a fan of leveling all your characters at once with no effort on your part. 

Also i'd like to say that if i were to break my #1 most important apart into the 3 the forced levels would be #1, followed by the items (although this could change due to me hearing promising things about it), and then followed by the shared EXP. I combined them all into 1 because they all effect the first one especially when combined with it.

Edited by Fatheredpuma81

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5 minutes ago, Fatheredpuma81 said:

Really leveling your hero's up doesn't do much other than letting you use stronger gear. Still though investing the time to get all your main hero's to level 100 should be seen as an achievement not something every player will do within their first 100 to 200 hours of playing the game. Maybe if they cut the overall EXP gain (wouldn't be a fan personally) or maybe increased the level cap or removed it entirely (which could open an entirely new grind) I could see this as being fine but as it stands i'm still really not a fan of leveling all your characters at once with no effort on your part. 

I'm going throw in my quote from the other thread.

1 hour ago, tehslippery said:

Lets talk about how the current systems works.

You can put up to 4 heroes in the hero deck. Each of those 4 heroes gains an equal amount of experience. Characters level up to a level of 100. As you level, it takes an exponential amount of experience to level. I have ~45 hours playing in the beta, I'm level 70. It took somewhere in the 3-3.2 million experience to get to that point. To get to level 71 takes a total of a little over 4 million experience to get to that point. So a quarter of the amount of experience it took me to get from 1-70 it will take me to get to 71. That will only get worse as levels increase.

Max level will take a lot of time in this game. It is not a trivial thing. The hero deck does not make it less trivial, it allows you to play the game as you progress.

Also keep in mind you only gain xp for 4 heroes at a time. You will want more than 4 heroes, so you'll still have to level heroes.

Edited by tehslippery

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2 hours ago, tehslippery said:

Also keep in mind you only gain xp for 4 heroes at a time. You will want more than 4 heroes, so you'll still have to level heroes.

Okay but you probably only need 1 DPS and 3 builders anyways so... after you're level 100 you likely can do Nightmare maps and just power 4 more characters (even more so if each splitscreen can have a hero deck of their own) in a few hours. Not sure why you quote'd your other thread though. Would have been better if you provided comparisons between Deeper Well and Lab on Insane from DD1 and DDA. Only thing your numbers show are that it requires less EXP to reach level 71 meaning it probably requires less EXP overall. I'm guessing level 100 will require 1B EXP most likely.

Edited by Fatheredpuma81

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4 minutes ago, Fatheredpuma81 said:

Okay but you probably only need 1 DPS and 3 builders anyways so... after you're level 100 you likely can do Nightmare maps and just power 4 more characters 

This assumption that you only need 3 builders and 1 dps is not really accurate. Even with just the 4 main heroes on dd1 console (never got any dlcs heroes or Nightmare difficulty) I have at present (on ps3)  waller Apprentice,  Tower Apprentice, Tower squire, Trap Huntress, Tower Boost Monk, Hero Boost Monk, DPS Apprentice, DPS Monk, DPS Huntress. Sadly I have to admit none are at 90 which is the max lvl there with insane+ since the grind for XP is just beyond ridiculous and my poor ps3 crashes during survival with 10k mobs by wave 9.

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I agree with most/all of this. Especially 3, 15, and 7. As far as 15... can we also bring back the design of the DD1 mana? The physics, color, texture, different sizes, sounds, etc were just objectively more interesting than the ugly ass tiny green mana. :( But yeah, I much preferred running around, grabbing chests and such. This might be a beta, but they honestly don't have that long to make fixes if they want to try to change a bunch of things before release. The more information we give them, sooner, the better they'll (hopefully) be able to compile, collect, and implement. Whether they do or not... meh. DD2 was such a failure to me I have almost no faith in the series anymore, and god knows DDE was an abomination. This is the last chance I'm giving the IP to get back to what I liked about the game, and general impressions for a lot of people seem to be similar, so here's hoping. 

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I agree with @Xurtan the mana crystals in DDA is probably my biggest complaint, I made this account purely to comment that the mana crystals are so uninspiring and flat compared to DD1.

DD1's mana is objectively better in readability and visual appeal 

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