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Kiskunk

Can we have the DD1 character swap back? Please :)

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The current idea of DD2-s swap on the go and earn xp with all your heroes at once is what made DD2 into a single player game. If you have all your characters up to max after reaching max with your first one, then there isn't really a replayability, rendering the game to a short storymode instead of challenging stages again and again, to level the secondary characters.

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There's still plenty of room for co-op even with the instant character swap, remember that a lot of DD1's maps were huge. Right now we just have a handful of small maps that are easily solo-able but we'll be getting most if not all of DD1's maps. Personally I really like the change and this is coming from someone who didn't like DD2 at all.

Edited by VillainousTaco
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4 hours ago, Kiskunk said:

The current idea of DD2-s swap on the go and earn xp with all your heroes at once is what made DD2 into a single player game.

As opposed to DD1 where the system strong-armed people into running an emulator so they could bring 4 of their own characters into every map.

4 hours ago, Kiskunk said:

after reaching max with your first one, then there isn't really a replayability, rendering the game to a short storymode

"A short story mode" with multiple difficulties to progress through that will probably take a 3 digit figure of hours to climb up before you even begin to work on obtaining the "good" gear. How very lacking in replay value that is as opposed to leveling characters one at a time on the same difficulty that you can cheese easily. 

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Umm... levelling your characters wasn't really an important part of the slog in DD1. It was that grind for increasingly better and better gear that took up the majority of your time and effort, and time spent levelling characters wasn't really important to that. Levelling up all at once not only allows for a smoother transition into equipment farming, but also encourages the use of multiple character builds in the early game stages that DD1 often made somewhat difficult at low levels due to your character levels always being uneven. This is one of DD2'S positive aspects that made the cut, in my opinion.

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I appreciate the hero deck system. It might make it a little easier in the beginning that DD1 was on launch. DD1 as it is now with tweaks to gear etc is actually quicker than it was (or is still on console) there are more maps where you can quickly gain xp and loot. I think this may be skewing opinions somewhat to how much replayability it has or how easy this change makes things.. You can if you so wish remove heroes from the deck and just level one hero or just make one hero from the start if that is how you like to play. Once Nightmare and Massacre are out without Xp maps like embermount or Tavern defence it may take a very long time to reach 100. Even with the tweaks to loot etc in DD1 it isnt really possible to go to nightmare with just ONE hero you needed a selection for various defences. this would be a little frustrating if up until then you only used one hero having to then level each up and gear them. Without maps like Moonbase or Lab Asault we will probably have to grind allot to get the stats needed to do diffculties like Nightmare.  I still remember playing as all the shard maps were introduced how much of a slog leveling each hero was and gearing them up - that is something i will be glad not to repeat. The better comparison would be to look at how it works on DD1 on ps3 and Xox 360 where you still only have campaign maps and the 4 shard maps as that will be basically what we will be working with for some time. It takes forever to find decent loot and to level your heroes on console for DD1. We are trying to judge things like progression on whats not even a quarter of the game. Plus also remember as new heroes are introduced and if u want a 5th hero (4 builders + 1 dps) there will still be heroes needing leveled separately. Unlike Dd2 not all heroes will gain XP just those in the hero deck during combat.

Edited by dizzydiana
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I think that they have to introduce the downgrade of the tower when you swap the character. But its ok to level up like this, you only need one character in DD1 to level up all of your other characters, I used to have a girl knight with great towers and play the bonus map again and again and again until I leveled up all my other heros on a private match where I only let enter my friends, so is the same if you level up one characters or all of them at the same time, that was when the max level was 65 before all DLCs, before nightmare...

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3 minutes ago, Dumme ツ said:

I think that they have to introduce the downgrade of the tower when you swap the character. But its ok to level up like this, you only need one character in DD1 to level up all of your other characters, I used to have a girl knight with great towers and play the bonus map again and again and again until I leveled up all my other heros on a private match where I only let enter my friends, so is the same if you level up one characters or all of them at the same time, that was when the max level was 65 before all DLCs, before nightmare...

The towers got a 25% boost if you played actively on the hero who placed them, they didnt downgrade from switching just lost the boost. From what I can tell this happens in DDA also - you can only really tell if you place close attention to the mobs getting hit. And hmm the countess was out before the first shard map really??? I thought it was after before we got any dlc heroes as the console version never got any heroes other than the original ones. I should of swapped to pc earlier than i did i guess.

 

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The thing about the hero deck is it will allow people to start with unique heros to be their builders (and a dps hero). I know huntress is an impractical builder even with how strong her traps are. Atleast with the hero deck you can still pull some build with her being the main utilizing blockades+ ensnares.

 

Also the first playthrough (which should be your  most active considering lack of gear ends up being completely about your towers and keeping them repaired in later levels because you become less effective then your towers by a long shot.

 

Also leveling up just ends up being what level can your towers solo that give the best exp an hour, typically a survival map.

Edited by vosh

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After playing a while, the quick-swap grew on me, so I like that addition to DD1.

The XP sharing, though, is a bit much.  Maybe if it was something like non-active heroes in your deck get a fraction of the experience the active hero gets?  That way it can still encourage playing as different heroes.

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People keep saying that. Is building on heroes and then swapping to a different hero to afk and get xp really more engaging? This is just cutting out completely unnecessary afk time and allowing you to actually play the game. I think the hero deck getting xp is one of the best changes they've made. Leveling heroes is boring and super repetitive. There is so much gameplay to the game without that, it's completely unnecessary.

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A good point raised above. I never really considered the DDA system to be like using additional controllers!

But we do need easier access to all our heroes like DD1 but maybe more than 8 per page (definitely NOT the dd2 flipping desk system!), ofc at least 2 of each, but the xp boost should be limited to 4 heroes.

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I see advantages to multiplayer with the hero deck as well. I would rather see 4 people in a match all active than one person solo with 3 afk heroes by using controllers/emulator. the hero deck itself wont allow any more than 4 heroes to level at a given time which is the same as loading in extra players split screen. You will still have to swap out deck to level any additional heroes eg 1 dps + 4 builders. Swapping out heroes needs work from how it is currently in DDA. As above I preferred the Dd1 system of flicking through pages of 8 heroes. I liked that we could also move the heroes around on the page or even between pages. This would allow for example all dps on top and all builders on the bottom, making it allot easier to remember which hero is which without resorting to names like "Tower" and "DPS".

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Honestly, I'm torn. 

Currently, I'm playing solo. I'm putting all my points in Towers and doing great. 

Comparing this to DD1, I played apprentice and done stuff similar. However, It got harder as I got further in the game. I ended up joining lobbies to help out and so I could get carried on my new characters.

Prior to the beta being released, I was very Anti Easy hero swaps. I was concerned easy hero swapping would have this effect the game making it to too easy to solo. Personally, this has kinda happened but the main factor is this shared XP. I'm just running through the missions like its nothing. The Levels up I get are not rewarding what so ever and I normally stack up 1-3 levels of points before spending them.  Yes, DD1 levelling up was a grind but that grind encouraged you to play with others so that you could specialise and not have to level up every different build.

This game was AMAZING as a co-op with friends, you all had your character and pulled your weight. Now, I've made four characters; all level up at the same rate. I can do it all, the NEED for that co-op experience isn't there and if you force it, it won't seem as rewarding. 

Would I Co-op if they got rid of shared XP? Prob not, but I would feel like I was missing out and I could get into higher content quicker by working with people?

Would I Co-op if they got rid of the hero swapping? Nah, it's too easy to level up all your characters to bother.

 

 

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It's really difficult to make a call on this without actual polls or studies or proper numbers. Are people going to co-op regardless? Sure. Are people going to solo regardless? Sure. Does one or the other encourage co-op or soloing? ...I'd say probably, but my biases are going to make me lean one direction, and that's just anecdotal. Personally, I always found that co-op was a lot more prevalent in DD1. DD2 simply had a lot less of it for me. DD2 was also just not as good of a game, and one I didn't play for as long as I did DD1. I'd probably prefer the hero deck not give XP to everyone, but I don't think going AFK and leveling up that way is exciting, either. A middleground or new option seems like it's needed, because both extremes/things we've seen before have issues. 

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I think the whole idea of this thread is a bit off. Hero decks only made it more convenient to get all your heroes at the same point. People playing solo or co-op is a problem of people. I played DD1 up until the Four Eternia Shards all solo where I got bored one day and went to help people and ran into soon to be friends, one of which had stronger defenses. He ended up building all the maps we played because the amount of farming he did was way above what the rest of us had done so we couldn't match his stuff. I play DD2 in public matches as much as I can. The amount of farming I have done is way above what most people can match so I do all the building there. The hero deck wouldn't make me play one or the other, if I want to solo I will find a way and if I want to have company I will go find it. When it comes to building all that matters is who has the strongest defenses and the biggest one, trusting the other player(s). That last part what defeats most public matches, we don't trust other people. How can I know that one random will not steal Mana and build his crap defenses over my great ones because he wants to feel like he did something, or just hold onto it and afk, or find a pit and bomb it all in there leaving us short, or just finding any other way to be a jerk. 

Having a hero deck does not change who people are.

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@Exglint, from what I can tell (and I may be wrong) the only reason I have see put forward against hero deck is it somehow makes solo too easy.There might be some point that you avoid multiplayer scaling with only needing one toon present to level four heroes. I dont see it as being enough of a difference to prevent a hero deck. In Dd1 you could get to glitterhelm in insane with only ever using squire or the Apprentice. I am not sure about huntress or monk never tried to do every map with just one of those. You didnt really need another hero until nightmare dififculty was a thing. Even then leveling new heroes up wasnt that hard at that point. You would build something like glitterhelm in insane hardcore on say a squire then switch to whatever hero u wanted to leevel next and basically afk the map. This is if you just wanted to elevel one hero at a time. With split screen there was a way to level 4 heroes at  a time, so people made emulators to allow those unable to hook up 3 controllers to their pc to also level 4 heroes at a time. All the hero deck imo does is cut out the need to fill your xp grind with afk toons and allow others to actually be able to join you in your grind.

Edited by dizzydiana
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2 minutes ago, dizzydiana said:

Even then if you wanted to level another hero you just set up defenses eg with a squire and more or less afk the whole map to level the hero. I dont see how afk on a whole map is more difficult than using a hero deck. I see it as more of a time sink than actual difficulty if you level  each hero individually and only ever use one hero at a time in combat phase.

Split screen still exists for DDA with any system that forces you to play and level only the hero thats active but also have a split screen for other plets to join in on a controller - there will be an emulator made to let people load in 4 heroes using all screens to  save the grind.

Agreed

And the emulator is the "Will find a way" :P

Its all opinion though, and if they can find a good enough reason to not have the deck then CG will make it so. I'm not CG but I personally don't see nay reason here as good enough to remove or change it.

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Id like to apologise to you Exglint i edited my post while you replied :). I felt i could of been more concise. I do that sometimes rewrite a whole post and leave people confused when they quoted me pre-edit. I dont mind if hero deck is there or not to be hones. I just dont agree with the reasons why it should not be there. 

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10 hours ago, xarta said:

Personally, this has kinda happened but the main factor is this shared XP. I'm just running through the missions like its nothing.

That's because this is a limited beta, there's no balance and only the first 4 levels of the game. You could also run through those levels like they were nothing on DD1 and DD2 in their full releases so it's kind of irrelevant how easily you're stomping the game. 

 

10 hours ago, xarta said:

Yes, DD1 levelling up was a grind but that grind encouraged you to play with others so that you could specialise and not have to level up every different build.

More like it encouraged people to run an emulator and be anti-social to get the grind over with and progress faster. There's like 200+ people on DD1 right now and 2 multiplayer lobbies.

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11 hours ago, Cuddles said:

More like it encouraged people to run an emulator and be anti-social to get the grind over with and progress faster. There's like 200+ people on DD1 right now and 2 multiplayer lobbies.

I used to be against xp share... Then I realised how many times recently I've started DD1 and went to NM survivals and built the whole thing planning to open it to public. Then I realise I have to level up my characters and dig up 3 controllers and end up afking there alone.. Perhaps it will be better to have the xp share, still I'm hoping though it's not 100% xp to all characters!

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