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Xurtan

Beta Feedback - Updated November 28

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I'm mostly scribbling notes as I play and mess around with things, and while some of it might seem harsh it really isn't meant to be. I adored DD1, DDE was... well, the less said the better, and DD2 had some okay ideas but poor implementation - ultimately I didn't spend the hundreds of hours in it that I did in the first game. I'm hoping for a return to the roots of the game that so drew me and my friends in, and made us still (perhaps naively?) buy into the beta for DDA. While everyone has an idea of what would be best for the game, this is what I personally would like to see and is my general feedback about anything that caught my eye. 

 

November 22, 2019 Feedback - 

Love the new Chromatic intro. 

The art for the DDA characters on the home screen is kind of horrifying. Their faces are going to give me nightmares.

Love the old intro music though.

The create a hero window lost my cursor, and you can't hit escape to exit. 

The shiny metal bits on the characters really need toned down, it's not quite as egregious on the towers but it's still a bit much. 

Why does the Apprentice look like a Mexican midget? The Monk looks constipated, and there's something weird with his body shape. Squire and Huntress at least look close to their original forms, but Apprentice and Monk are all kinds of off. Apprentice most especially. Also, the Monk's face. Nightmarish. The Squire's face? Nightmarish. Stick more to the DD1 designs, please. The way his helmet curves to his face is disturbing. 

As far as the Create a Hero icons, the Squire and Apprentice are okay, but the Huntress and Monk's are... really bad. Monk's most especially. 

In-game, seriously, the Apprentice's model needs changed. It's really awful. 

I do appreciate that the old towers and such are back, though. That's a really good change! 

Also, the tavern is fantastic to see again, though there's way too much light. Adding some more shadows or patches of darkness/adjusting it would help. And please for the love of god lower the bronze filter or saturation that's in use. It's an issue on a lot of the actual map, too, but the tavern just... oof. 

While the UI is obviously going to change, I'm going to comment on these just to make sure it gets mentioned and people don't accept it as 'Oh, they already know everything we dislike about it, these are just placeholders.' Not a fan of the icons at all as far as the defenses/hero abilities, and the font choice for HP/mana/level is not a good one. It doesn't fit the game. Also the bars themselves are kind of blah. When in doubt, return to your DD1 roots. 

The hero is also weirdly off to the side of the camera instead of centered, which makes for an unpleasant moving feel. Over the shoulder works for games like Resident Evil, but not for DD. 

The Apprentice's right click is also weirdly lacking in weight. While it doesn't need an animation lock per se, it definitely needs to have his model doing something other than sort of tapping the ground. It feels very floaty right now. 

Where did first person go?

Where do we edit the crystal? 

Not a fan of the hero deck still existing in any form, though I get people wanting to level everything at once it hurts the lifespan of the game. 

It's hard to tell when everyone is ready or not. 

It's hard to tell if I'm ready or not. 

Again, the font for everything is kind of awful. 

The cutscene stays at full audio even if everything is turned down.

What on earth is that weird almost South Park-esque 'level up' voice for Apprentice? 

The build noise really needs to go. Think more grinding/something heavier a la DD1, the 'dok dok dok' noise is just sad. 

Sometimes things get stuck in the spawner, and we can't attack them. We really need DD1's timeout system where something stuck in there would die. I know the indicator will be coming back so we can see where that range is, but the pathing could certainly use a bit of work so things don't get stuck.  

The ready time should go down faster with every person that readies up, or at least cut the time left. 

Bring back the chest collecting for mana at the start of the map, that was fun! 

We don't need to see the names of who built a defense, and somehow I've gotten it stuck on so they show all the time once or twice. Also again, that font. The font and the name color, really. Neither are great. 

KEEP the fact we can't change heroes or our gear during combat, that's really good!

Not every button should skip cutscenes - make it so it's escape. I accidentally skipped one just by hitting alt. 

I like the staff twirl the Apprentice does on round begin, nice animation. 

Mana Bomb's animation is okay, but I'd really like to see it tilt the camera down a bit more (or out a bit more, so we can actually see the Apprentice) and show us an actual spherical explosion - think more like the first game. I'm sort of seeing this with Hero abilities in general actually, where yes the abilities are not as blatant as DD2's, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be equally as impressive to look at. 

Unfortunately a lot of the game seems to lack weight, which really does come down to the animations. The towers need to feel like they're actually firing, bolts need to feel like they're impacting. Playing with it more, I've changed my mind on the tower weight. It's honestly not bad, though the mobs themselves tend to just kind of flop over that's sort of unavoidable in a game of this style + that many enemies. 

Also as a rule the game is just too bright. Now whether that can be fixed with a gamma slider I don't know, but even maps in caves and such... they really need shadows and depth to them. Right now they're feeling a bit washed out and too bright, almost like they have a bit of a filter over them. 

Wave loot chests are weird, and not explained. Do they stack? Do we need them every wave? It's kind of obnoxious. 

The weird pastel color of Huntress traps needs to change. Also not a fan of their icons (or any of the defense icons) when they're up on a map. We don't need to always see a defense's health. Let us set a threshold for when we see it, or have us bind a button to toggle it. 

The traps themselves are also sort of goofy looking, I'm not a fan of them in this art style. 

The Apprentice tower is a bit fat on top. Not a fan. 

What on earth is that ogre approach noise? 

Items are hard to mouse over or click sometimes. 

Let us hit E or something to open a chest instead of walking into it.

Not a fan of the mana design OR the way it works more closely similar to DD2 than DD1. While DD1 had too much, DD2 was too stingy. The mana just... wasn't as interesting to look at in DD2, either. I much prefer the big jello gems of DD1, multiple sizes/shapes/colors for amounts, etc. DD2's were too sharp and glowed a bit oddly for the art style to me, almost too stylized - continuing that trend isn't a good thing.  

Good lord what is that base magic missile tower range? At least we can up it, but yikes. 

There doesn't seem to be an easy way to compare equipment? Little things like should be more readily explained rather than hidden away in control menus, imo. 

When we select a sort/filter function in the inventory, it doesn't seem to save or remember. 

And finally, for the moment... I reiterate, please, please, please change the Apprentice design. The art, the model, the hero select... none of it looks good or anywhere approaching DD1. 

 

November 23, 2019 Feedback - 

The more I play with it the more I like the heroes being more like they were in DD1. Absolutely leave the weird abilities and all that jazz in DD2, they're not wanted or needed. The simplified ones in DDA are perfect. 

Give us a way to filter visible items on the floor as far as tier/quality/power or something. 

Keep the UI simplified. While right now it IS too simple and clearly a placeholder, DD2's UI was an abomination. Keep this clean, concise, easily accessible and intuitive. Right now it actually covers those fairly well, for all that it needs to be sharpened up with art.  

Orc and Goblin faces are awful. I'm speaking of the models themselves, not the art on the door. It's actually too goofy, even for DD1. There needs to be... some silliness, yes, but it's a type of silly that's playing it straight, if that makes sense. This just seems too 'lel XD look at how goofy I am'. The orcs in particular. Their hair... ugh. Honestly, the door art is pretty good - take that design into account for the models. 

Lack of Ogre arrival trumpet :(

The wave chests should just keep accruing loot so you don't have to go to it each time - and any loot on the field you don't collect should get added to it as well (or automatically added to your inventory or discarded depending on player filters). 

Turrets should grow more impressive as they're upgraded - one thing DD2 did reasonably well

No obvious way to see hero info after creation (ie, what turrets you have/do)

The Apprentice barrier used to be an elegant, gorgeous and grand slim gem. Now it's... kind of chunky and weird. It doesn't mesh with the style Apprentice seems to go for, really. The flameburst tower is actually really good, I like that. It's the only Apprentice tower so far I don't feel needs changed. The lightning tower looks more like an ice tower to me, and the 'attack' FX are... really sad. Imo, much like the Apprentice's barrier it just needs reworked entirely. The sniper tower is fine, though could maybe be a bit less 'curved'. Think sharp rather than leaning. And I already mentioned the weird chunkiness of the MM tower needs changed. 

The wyvern approaching noise is just as bad as the ogre noise, it needs changed.

We should be able to see what loot we get from finishing a map, or at least tell us how many pieces go to the inventory. 

An inability to move while in the air makes for some awkward movement in general. 

If FORCED I can deal with having a deck of heroes that all get XP, but please remove the instant swapping. Force people to go back to the forge to swap heroes. It really brought the game speed down in a good way in DD1, and made it more tactical. You had to think about what you needed when and forced smarter and more skilled building. 

 

November 24, 2019 - 

Bring back the call button (C), or introduce a ping system similar to more modern games such as Apex. Think 'holding down C and seeing a radial menu with 'barrier here, major threat here, defend here, upgrade here, repair here' as options, perhaps. 

The initial screens aren't impacted by changing the sound settings, either. Presumably similar to the fact cutscenes don't. 

It might just be me, but the little tiny chips in the 'Dungeon Defenders' name on the title screen(s) makes it look almost pixelated rather than worn, as presumably intended. 

How do we turn off the build/fun screen that pops up? 

For some reason when I hit middlemouse button, the tower wheel doesn't spin freely. It seems to get 'stuck' somewhere as I try to move the mouse to swap tower option, but not always, just most of the time.  

The Ogre on Deeper Well survival always seems to get stuck in the door. Always. I have to lead him out manually, and it doesn't always work. Looking at the doors, the right most door has issues with archers stacking up and getting stuck, too. It's pretty clear the maps need tested for survival workability.  

With the awkward angle the characters are at (off to the side), it's impossible to see the pets except during specific camera angles or when zoomed out to repair/build/etc.  

 

November 27, 2019 - 

Something about the orc walk animation is off. Too much of a slow swagger, maybe? 

The goblin's feel slightly too large. It's a mix of them being taller than the characters (they're shorter in DD1) and the width of the ears and such. Just a weird size issue, imo, and only really noticeable on the goblins and MAYBE the orcs. 

The camera tends to stick slightly after zooming in on some areas to build.

The camera tends to jerk weirdly when upgrading, like it's pulling the camera to where the hitbox actually is. It needs to be much smoother. 

Items should highlight their rarity when you mouse over them, instead of all of them being blue. 

Not only is the mana boring (seriously, bring back the DD1 mana look/colors/shapes/physics), but it's very stingy. It gets difficult to upgrade beyond a few waves in Survival, and a lot of the fun of TD games is upgrading--especially when the towers (they should!) change in look on upgrade. While we don't need to drown in mana like DD1, we definitely need more mana. Even if that means everything needs to be made more difficult to compensate. Upgrading is part of the game! 

Ogres need to scale harder/faster. They simply don't feel tanky enough or deadly enough for what they're supposed to be. 

The Apprentice right click with his boost is actually a lot of fun, more than I ever had in DD2 with its abilities. Good work guys.

Why do the heroes t-pose in the art on the hero deck? They should really have unique poses. The art on the hero deck is... almost the only example I've seen of the heroes that doesn't disturb me, facially, other than the squire's helmet sticking to his chin still bothering me, so good work on that aspect at least. 

The dark elf assassins should be darker in design, more distinct, and generally do more damage. They're not nearly as scary as they used to be. 

We're already able to/all but encouraged to AFK on some maps/survival. It'd be a good idea to offer incentives (cosmetics?) or challenges (gold/XP?) for doing specific things combat wise. That was actually one of the things I liked in DD2, even if the implementation wasn't great. Just NO dailies or weeklies or that sort of dumb shit that feel like they absolutely have to be done. More emphasis on heroes needing to go out and repair or attack things themselves wouldn't hurt, either, as far as difficulty goes. You shouldn't be ABLE to go AFK for long periods. 

 

November 28, 2019 - 

Make the tavern chandeliers easier to get on top of - right now the hitbox is shaped so that you have to jump over it to land on the very top, where we really should be able to jump up from the sides. For that matter, why are the chandeliers so massive? They're fat and kind of ugly in comparison to DD1. The scaling of the tavern really feels off in comparison to DD1 in general. The fireplace mantle is like two to three times as high, it's super awkward. 

'i' opens the inventory, it should also close it 

 

There's absolutely a lot of potential here, guys. I already like it better than the DD2 beta in several ways, but there's a long ways to go to get it to what I, my friends, and often I feel the community is really looking for. And not a lot of time to do it in, really, if you plan to meet your current release date. If/when I find things I'll update this list, but those were the most obvious ones.

EDIT: Likely final(?) update for now, I might organize it all later. Checked out most of what I wanted to see, noting the things that stood out. It's definitely a good start, it really is. While obviously everything isn't universally agreed upon, there's definitely a lot of general things I'm seeing people talk about, such as Apprentice's design. I hope we see a lot of improvement, and I really hope you as a dev team actually listen to the advice we give and consider it. More than that, actually implement some of it. Too many companies like to have 'beta' events and then not actually take any of it into consideration, no matter the fact that the playerbase having fun is the most important factor; please don't be one of them. I realize this close to launch it can be difficult to get everything right, but it's vitally important as a 'new' company with an old IP that you do better than DD2 or DDE managed. You only really get one shot here, guys. 

Edited by Xurtan
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Can I add difficulty. I shouldnt complete medium 1-2 times a map and go directly to insane on alchemy labs. Felt like 0 progression.  It wasnt even THAT much of a challenge.

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1 hour ago, vosh said:

Can I add difficulty. I shouldnt complete medium 1-2 times a map and go directly to insane on alchemy labs. Felt like 0 progression.  It wasnt even THAT much of a challenge.

That's absolutely something I want to test more, yeah. Difficulty is always a hard thing to get a feel for, and with us not having all the maps or all of the difficulties I'm willing to give it a bit of a slide. Especially as they'll be adding bosses. Even for DD1, it was just sort of expected you'd be able to complete most maps with a decent crew/intelligent tower layout up until Nightmare. As long as Nightmare is as brutal as it needs to be I'm perfectly fine with it, really. The additional enemies and such will certainly help with that. 

I need to get a better sense of items and all that jazz, too, but certainly an interesting first day of testing. 

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That's pretty true. I remember in dd1 I would go through campaign medium then hard then insane and each one provided a challenge. That was with the original 10 maps. I'd like to be like that climb again. In a 4 map beta I could see them adjusting accordingly and making it so you are able to do all modes without grinding the same 4 maps 10 times each.

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10 hours ago, Xurtan said:

Not a fan of the hero deck still existing in any form, though I get people wanting to level everything at once it hurts the lifespan of the game. 

How does it? Leveling heroes one by one in DD1 was not only an absolutely pointless boring chore it pigeonholed people into playing alone with 4 of their characters at once to save themselves dying of outright boredom. Striving to create artificial "length" of gameplay by adding pointless grind just encourages people to either cheese the system or cheat which in itself hurts the lifespan of the game for a lot of people. 

 

10 hours ago, Xurtan said:

Force people to go back to the forge to swap heroes. It really brought the game speed down in a good way in DD1, and made it more tactical. You had to think about what you needed when and forced smarter and more skilled building. 

You mean it forced you to have a certain amount of hero speed and casting rate to build properly with multiple heroes or you could just fall back on the same "OP" defenses. It doesn't make the game "more tactical" or "harder" because the building phase timer is set up to account for the fact you need to run back and forth to the forge multiple times. The only thing it really does is, as you say, bring the overall speed down. 

But to that I'd say again that artificial inflation of gameplay length is pointless and only serves to dissuade people from the game. When the only thing the mechanic does is make you waste 1-3 minutes running between the forge and lanes at the start of the map then seriously what's the point? It's not fun especially when you're aiming for end game progression and doing the same thing hundreds if not thousands of times over and over. 

10 hours ago, Xurtan said:

There doesn't seem to be an easy way to compare equipment? 

Shift while hovering over it. 

 

10 hours ago, Xurtan said:

Turrets should grow more impressive as they're upgraded - one thing DD2 did reasonably well

Yeah and the upgrade icons really need to be changed back to how they were in the other games. Auras aren't so bad but it's kinda hard to see what level towers are.

10 hours ago, Xurtan said:

Items are hard to mouse over or click sometimes. 

The hitboxes for most things are slightly off from what I've noticed. It's a bit irritating.

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I agree with everything Cuddles says here. I understand those who are used to Dd1 may be put off with the QOL brought in from Dd2, but i for one appreciate it. I dont like spamming left mouse or R1 to attack, I dont like the mind numbing boredom of levelling characters individually or having to use emulator/extra controllers to level more than one hero. I cannont stand artificial difficulty the game is supposed to be based on strategy of where u place towers etc not on speed checks,

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10 hours ago, Cuddles said:

How does it? Leveling heroes one by one in DD1 was not only an absolutely pointless boring chore it pigeonholed people into playing alone with 4 of their characters at once to save themselves dying of outright boredom. Striving to create artificial "length" of gameplay by adding pointless grind just encourages people to either cheese the system or cheat which in itself hurts the lifespan of the game for a lot of people. 

Personally, I feel that if the gameplay isn't good enough to be interesting enough to level four characters, we have other issues. A game can absolutely be fun to do over and over and over again with limited content--look at successes such as Risk of Rain 1/2, or other Rogue-likes--and I think that's something we need to focus on. A good core gameplay that makes leveling up itself fun and interesting. Will some people cheat or cheese if it's possible? Absolutely. But I don't feel we should be balancing for the lowest common denominator. 

10 hours ago, Cuddles said:

 

You mean it forced you to have a certain amount of hero speed and casting rate to build properly with multiple heroes or you could just fall back on the same "OP" defenses. It doesn't make the game "more tactical" or "harder" because the building phase timer is set up to account for the fact you need to run back and forth to the forge multiple times. The only thing it really does is, as you say, bring the overall speed down. 

This falls back into my last comment. How people actually care or focused on the very specific meta or "OP" defenses? Some, sure, but everyone? The game needs to be primarily balanced for the largest majority of players within its core gameplay concepts. Most people (anecdotally, but that's all we have) are here solely to play for fun, not to necessarily play at maximum peak optimization. Admittedly, I'd also be fine with really tight build times + instant swap, as an alternative. 

10 hours ago, Cuddles said:

Shift while hovering over it. 

Thanks, good to know! 

10 hours ago, Cuddles said:

Yeah and the upgrade icons really need to be changed back to how they were in the other games. Auras aren't so bad but it's kinda hard to see what level towers are.

The hitboxes for most things are slightly off from what I've noticed. It's a bit irritating.

Agreed on both. Having to pixel perfect to look at something is awkward, and the general 'overview' in the game itself when looking at towers and such is currently not the best designed. 

8 hours ago, dizzydiana said:

I agree with everything Cuddles says here. I understand those who are used to Dd1 may be put off with the QOL brought in from Dd2, but i for one appreciate it. I dont like spamming left mouse or R1 to attack, I dont like the mind numbing boredom of levelling characters individually or having to use emulator/extra controllers to level more than one hero. I cannont stand artificial difficulty the game is supposed to be based on strategy of where u place towers etc not on speed checks,

See, I wouldn't call it QoL. I'd call it dumbing down. I played DD2, and while I didn't hate it I'd absolutely not call it an improvement on the game formula. Considering the number of people that have chimed in wanting DD1 + the general success/fame levels of both, I'd wager I'm not the only one. A speed check is part of strategy to me, though I'll concede it isn't the most important aspect. 

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22 hours ago, Xurtan said:

No obvious way to see hero info after creation (ie, what turrets you have/do)

 

You can press middle mouse button to see all towers and their info when you hover over them. Only works for the hero you are currently, it also serves as an alternative to placing towers without using the keyboard.

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9 minutes ago, AJsEpicGames said:

You can press middle mouse button to see all towers and their info when you hover over them. Only works for the hero you are currently, it also serves as an alternative to placing towers without using the keyboard.

I realise that now but where is the description  for abilities. I know some like piercing shot but overcharge and whatever the new ability for huntress is called does what? overcharge doesnt seem to do what it did in DD1 and i have no idea how hero boost is working on the monk compared to dd1. the others I only really know as they seem to be the same as dd1 or else i would really have no clue what they are called.

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I'm afraid the only thing i can find to describe the abilities is when you go to create a new character after pressing 'O' or through the 'ESC' menu. That seems to be the only place for ability descriptions.

As for the huntress, i found her very under-powered and deem her to be unworthy of being in my deck. Unless she gets significant boosts (as a DPS char) i wont be using her, ive never been a fan of traps so as a tower build i cant say much but she seems to suck pretty much overall. 

The monk i don't believe has a hero boost anymore, its a tower boost which is OP it more than doubles the attack of my towers when i tested it.

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2 hours ago, dizzydiana said:

I realise that now but where is the description  for abilities. I know some like piercing shot but overcharge and whatever the new ability for huntress is called does what? overcharge doesnt seem to do what it did in DD1 and i have no idea how hero boost is working on the monk compared to dd1.

If overcharge is the apprentice ability, from what I've seen it makes your right click charge instantly and it no longer has damage fall-off

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10 hours ago, Xurtan said:

Personally, I feel that if the gameplay isn't good enough to be interesting enough to level four characters, we have other issues. A game can absolutely be fun to do over and over and over again with limited content--look at successes such as Risk of Rain 1/2, or other Rogue-likes

It's not so much that the gameplay isn't "good enough" and more that it's just not really what gear progression based games like DD are really about. Playing limited content in them over and over is still fun but just for different reason and with different motivation.

I started DD1 fresh again a couple of months ago and the leveling process was pretty awful, by a large margin the worst part of the game. You pretty quickly hit a wall where you need to spend multiple hours grinding nothing but XP for your character to break through and pretty soon after that you're in need of basically every character leveled up to continue. It's so incredibly boring sitting there for probably a dozen or so hours repeating the same easy map whilst making no real progression. Hell, you can't even really do anything other than sit there when you're leveling builders for hours on end.

It's just bad for the health of the game. It punishes people for trying to experiment early game, it stagnates progression with pointless grind and it encourages people to cheese the system with things like emulators, which pretty much everyone that's been playing over the last few years does because otherwise they're progressing at 1/4 the speed.  

10 hours ago, Xurtan said:

How people actually care or focused on the very specific meta or "OP" defenses? Some, sure, but everyone?

I mean, I play multiple games with vocal communities some even with sites tracking the things people use - a huge amount of most games player bases end up using whatever is meta or OP. Hell, just look at DD2 all you'd ever really see anyone using was whatever was strongest at that point in time - traps in the early days, then PDT's, then flame auras, then weapon mans. 

You're right - most people want fun. DD games, like a lot of progression based games, are undoubtedly more fun late game. A lot of people like to take the path of least resistance there. Your average player will cheese literally everything they can just look at the current Pokemon scene where huge amounts of players are risking corrupting their saves just to farm pointless money or target farm raids.

 

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@Cuddles @Xurtan

Levelling the builders was boring indeed, as you had to put your dps character to rest and play easier maps. Leveling 4 characters at a time may be a good compromise in the long run, depending on how many character we finnally end up using and how much levelling  we'll need to do.

In DD1, I was one of those usint splitscreen to level up my builders while using my DPS. Was still boring.

---------

I didn't like running for the chests in DD1, especially in easy to hard where there was no time limit. It added no challenge and was a waste of time.

Starting with insane, at least it added challenge. But i still didn't like it.

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2 hours ago, Cuddles said:

It's not so much that the gameplay isn't "good enough" and more that it's just not really what gear progression based games like DD are really about. Playing limited content in them over and over is still fun but just for different reason and with different motivation.

I started DD1 fresh again a couple of months ago and the leveling process was pretty awful, by a large margin the worst part of the game. You pretty quickly hit a wall where you need to spend multiple hours grinding nothing but XP for your character to break through and pretty soon after that you're in need of basically every character leveled up to continue. It's so incredibly boring sitting there for probably a dozen or so hours repeating the same easy map whilst making no real progression. Hell, you can't even really do anything other than sit there when you're leveling builders for hours on end.

It's just bad for the health of the game. It punishes people for trying to experiment early game, it stagnates progression with pointless grind and it encourages people to cheese the system with things like emulators, which pretty much everyone that's been playing over the last few years does because otherwise they're progressing at 1/4 the speed.  

I mean, I play multiple games with vocal communities some even with sites tracking the things people use - a huge amount of most games player bases end up using whatever is meta or OP. Hell, just look at DD2 all you'd ever really see anyone using was whatever was strongest at that point in time - traps in the early days, then PDT's, then flame auras, then weapon mans. 

You're right - most people want fun. DD games, like a lot of progression based games, are undoubtedly more fun late game. A lot of people like to take the path of least resistance there. Your average player will cheese literally everything they can just look at the current Pokemon scene where huge amounts of players are risking corrupting their saves just to farm pointless money or target farm raids.

Yeah, at that point it really just sounds like a completely different style choice/preference. I enjoy grinding. I also enjoy just leveling things, often incidentally, simply by playing the game because the gameplay ends up being that good. I've done it in quite a few games. MMOs, certainly, especially early ones where grinding was the only option. But also more modern ones--and I go back to the Risk of Rain example again--where every single run is fresh and you're forced to level up and get powerful again. It simply isn't grindy or unfun to me because I'm progressing and working on things with friends. I absolutely disagree that it punishes people for trying to experiment, that the grind is pointless, and that enough people will cheese that it should just be 'expected'. People grind in games all the time, and always have. Very rarely does that come down to 'let something play the game for me'. If it becomes a majority in DDA where people do, that's an issue - both with how easy it is to cheat, and with the fact people would rather simply not play. I don't believe a grind is enough to cause that. 

28 minutes ago, Ryzours said:

I didn't like running for the chests in DD1, especially in easy to hard where there was no time limit. It added no challenge and was a waste of time.

Starting with insane, at least it added challenge. But i still didn't like it.

Fair. I'd disagree, but it's definitely a stylistic choice at that point. I genuinely liked the way DD1's mana looked and felt and it was just a small satisfying thing to me. DD2's mana is... not as interesting, somehow? It lacks the oomph. I reiterate from earlier feedback, bring back the multi-colored gummies rather than the hard slimmed down manas. ;) Chest wise though, I'd be fine if they existed as an option but also just opened and split mana across those in-game with a ready option or some such. I do think them existing was good for the game because it added a little extra bit to the world itself. 

Sort of like 'fun spells' in MMOs that existed primarily in the late 90s and early 00s. They didn't necessarily add anything that was NEEDED, but it built upon the world itself. Removing them has left it feeling a bit more hollow because the only thing that exists are the abilities you'll use all the time. Making it more 'gamey', and less 'worldy', if that makes sense. The chests add rather than detract for me. 

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2 hours ago, Xurtan said:

Yeah, at that point it really just sounds like a completely different style choice/preference. I enjoy grinding. I also enjoy just leveling things, often incidentally, simply by playing the game because the gameplay ends up being that good. I've done it in quite a few games. MMOs, certainly, especially early ones where grinding was the only option. 

Fair. I'd disagree, but it's definitely a stylistic choice at that point. I genuinely liked the way DD1's mana looked and felt and it was just a small satisfying thing to me. DD2's mana is... not as interesting, somehow? It lacks the oomph. I reiterate from earlier feedback, bring back the multi-colored gummies rather than the hard slimmed down manas. ;) Chest wise though, I'd be fine if they existed as an option but also just opened and split mana across those in-game with a ready option or some such. I do think them existing was good for the game because it added a little extra bit to the world itself. 

 

On the whole I would say I like grinding and watching my heroes level up I spent many thousands of hours in MMOs doing content over and over where you play as one character then go back and do it again with another. Mostly to challenge myself to see how quick I can get to this part, how much better can I optimise this part of progression this time etc.  What i dont like is to be forced into slowing down for no other point but to gain XP. The problem for people like myself and Cuddles isnt so much the grinding of experience its just how the gear was level gaited in DD1 and we can see issues of how that may return. Spending a week of running XP map grinds just to equip the next tier of gear for each and every hero one at a time is tedious at best. What made it feel worse was all the time you are grinding out the XP there would be no improvement of loot you could equip if you were doing the grind in the most efficient manner. If it were possible to do the highest difficulty on the hardest map with just ONE hero then perhaps we wouldnt complain but you cant. You need a selection for defences and need at least 3 or 4 heroes to get into  Nightmare nevermind attempting Nightmare Hardcore Mixed Mode Survival. In DD1 atm I use 5 different heroes' defences for every map i run at least  sometimes more. Having to level them up individually made people use thigns like extra controllers or emulators jsut to make the grind a little less tedious. This of course means playing in multiplayer isnt beneficial, you are losing out on grinding a hero. so you wont see public matches anywhere like you would otherwise. Having 4 heroes leveling up at the same time in a hero deck is not that much different from loading in 3 heroes by controller or emulator if you are playing solo. If we are being realistic about things being able to lvl 4 heroes without emulators and the like actually increases the desirability to play with other people. We all can level 4 heroes and have 4 ACTUAL players in the map not one player on FOUR heroes.

Where the mana is concerned , I agree on the style of it with you. I much preffered DD1 mana and how it looked. That though would not make any difference to whether a mana chest was present or not. Some people prefer to run around and gain mana from each chests others quite like having their mana given to them. With chests both ways have advantages and disadvantages and I wouldnt really mind which way was implemented. I do prefer not having to remember where all the chests are, but its not a huge deal if they came back. 

Edited by dizzydiana
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1 hour ago, Xurtan said:

I enjoy grinding.

Everyone here enjoys grinding. It's the entire point of a gear based game like DD. I doubt many people are backing and pre-ordering just to play through the short storyline one time and be done with the game, especially when DD games aren't exactly lore-driven masterpieces. 

The issue with DD1's leveling system isn't "omg I have to grind!!!". 

1 hour ago, Xurtan said:

I go back to the Risk of Rain example again--where every single run is fresh and you're forced to level up and get powerful again

The thing is, as far as I'm aware at least (haven't actually tried out Risk of Rain) your runs on it aren't gated at the mid point by you needing to basically afk-leech your current character with your previous for 2-3 hours to hit a breakpoint before you can progress. You're comparing apples to oranges because they're entirely different types of grinds and scenarios. 

Leveling a single character at a time may have been perfectly fine during the vanilla game when you only really "needed" one character to succeed and the exp curve was fairly small but the DLC's definitely changed that, and we'll likely see the same with DDA. 

DD games just aren't "set up" correctly for DD1's leveling system. If you're trying to level a new character past a breakpoint when progressing or even just leveling a builder you're basically not even playing the game because there's nothing you can do during the waves. While I'm all for being lazy and "afking" through maps now and then a grind should never be forced on you that's so non-engaging that your only option is to essentially do nothing for a few hours until you have the desired results. 

I do admit that every character gaining full exp is a bit much but the concept is definitely sound. 

2 hours ago, Xurtan said:

Very rarely does that come down to 'let something play the game for me'.

No but it does come down to things that damage the game overall like emulators in DD1 and the vast period of DD2's life where people played pretty much only alone.

 

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5 minutes ago, Cuddles said:

 

Leveling a single character at a time may have been perfectly fine during the vanilla game when you only really "needed" one character to succeed and the exp curve was fairly small but the DLC's definitely changed that, and we'll likely see the same with DDA. 

Even on consoles (which never got any dlc heroes) other than just running campaign maps you needed more than one hero. If you call running once through the campaign and thats you done then you dont understand DD. Survival even on easier difficulties would always work better with more than one hero. It was always optimised for you to use multiple heroes for building. Even then you needed a second one to DPS on the boss fights. To level your heroes (especially building heroes) was a matter of -

set up survival in highest wave you can do to get enough mana to build map

build the full map with the mana 

start combat and hide in the safety of SDA while trying to grab mana to upgrade defences

Plug in extra controllers or load up emulator and load in 3 other heroes place them in safe spots then leave them

once defences upgraded find a spot near core to repair and stay there until the end of survival (most likely for 3 or 4 hours)

Rinse and repeat.

I am sorry I fail to see where the fun is.

 

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2 minutes ago, dizzydiana said:

Even on consoles (which never got any dlc heroes) other than just running campaign maps you needed more than one hero. If you call running once through the campaign and thats you done then you dont understand DD. Survival even on easier difficulties would always work better with more than one hero. It was always optimised for you to use multiple heroes for building. Even then you needed a second one to DPS on the boss fights. To level your heroes (especially building heroes) was a matter of -

set up survival in highest wave you can do to get enough mana to build map

build the full map with the mana 

start combat and hide in the safety of SDA while trying to grab mana to upgrade defences

Plug in extra controllers or load up emulator and load in 3 other heroes place them in safe spots then leave them

once defences upgraded find a spot near core to repair and stay there until the end of survival (most likely for 3 or 4 hours)

Rinse and repeat.

I am sorry I fail to see where the fun is.

 

If you level that way it's not fun...but you could level up very fast in a group of good people doing throne room.   Bosses gave tones of xp on higher difficulty.  Also having built your towers on a toon you aren't on made them 25% weaker.  In the original you were much better off getting a team of players you like to play with in vent or something like it and not all playing the same thing.   The only reason you needed more than 1 class was if you were running random pugs and got a bad draw like no builder or all builders.    

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28 minutes ago, fluffycalico said:

If you level that way it's not fun...but you could level up very fast in a group of good people doing throne room.   Bosses gave tones of xp on higher difficulty.  Also having built your towers on a toon you aren't on made them 25% weaker.  In the original you were much better off getting a team of players you like to play with in vent or something like it and not all playing the same thing.   The only reason you needed more than 1 class was if you were running random pugs and got a bad draw like no builder or all builders.    

When you are needing tens of Millions of XP maps like throne room are not worth while.. Leveling my heroies which I am doing atm from 95-100 even with NMPS Tavern defence which is the easiest way to do it takes me 6 hrs a run for maybe one or 2 levels. Or I guess I could do 20 runs of the map normally with a timer and have bosses i cant kill and constantly fail for the same xp? Neither way gives me any loot but at least with survival or PS I at least get a pet. Running in Multiplayer again means you can only level 1-3 heroes at any given time. Glitterhelm give good xp per run (in vanilla) but unless you afk the map/hide where you wont get hit as a builder there isnt much you can do in hardcore mode If you are basically forced to afk/hide then you are not contributing to the game. Not many people appreciate having to carry a builder who has t o hide and gingerly grab mana or constantly dies because their resistance is not enough for Nightmare. Even more so where in hardcore mode means they are basically out for the whole wave if they die. At least with DDA you dont have negative resistances which were every common on gear that added the best building stats. So I see an advantage there over DD1. even with better resistance in difficulties where you have to dps down mobs while upgrading a building hero will still be a disadvantage over suing a dps hero. You will still be better off staying close to towers or quickly running out to grab mana then run back to upgrade not really able to kill anything. 

Edited by dizzydiana

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1 minute ago, dizzydiana said:

When you are needing tens of Millions of XP maps like throne room are not worth while.. Leveling my heroies which I am doing atm from 95-100 even with NMPS Tavern defence which is the easiest way to do it takes me 6 hrs a run for maybe one or 2 levels. Or I guess I could do 20 runs of the map normally and have bosses i cant kill and constantly fail? Running in Multiplayer again means you can only level 1-3 heroes at any given time. Glitterhelm give good xp per run (in vanilla) but unless you afk the map/hide where you wont get hit as a builder there isnt much you can do in hardcore mode If you are basically forced to afk/hide then you are not contributing to the game. Not many people appreciate having to carry a builder who has t o hide and gingerly grab mana or constantly dies because their resistance is not enough for Nightmare. Even more so where in hardcore mode means they are basically out for the whole wave if they die. At least with DDA you dont have negative resistances which were every common on gear that added the best building stats. So I see an advantage there over DD1. even with better resistance in difficulties where you have to dps down mobs while upgrading a building hero will still be a disadvantage over suing a dps hero. You will still be better off staying close to towers or quickly running out to grab mana then run back to upgrade not really able to kill anything. 

Strange that your builders keep dieing... in original my builder never had any issues staying alive.   Also if you built towers and switched I would ask to replace them with mine and if you would not let me I would just never group with you again as why would we want your super weak towers out there from you switching when we could actually have full power towers out there...

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hmm towers killing no issue having resistances like 22% to fire in NMHC is a different story unless i use weak towers and go for resistances? One or 2 hits from an enemy can kill you if you focus on towers first for builder esp since resistances are lowered in NM. This is an example of the stats I have on one of my builders as it would appear in NM difficulty notice the physcial resistance. I think you suggest I should stop adding points into my towers to increase my resistance which seems counter intuitive for a hero who builds.

download1.jpg

 

Edited by dizzydiana

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44 minutes ago, fluffycalico said:

Strange that your builders keep dieing... in original my builder never had any issues staying alive.   Also if you built towers and switched I would ask to replace them with mine and if you would not let me I would just never group with you again as why would we want your super weak towers out there from you switching when we could actually have full power towers out there...

Am i correct that when we need 5 different heroes defences heck even just 4 you would not run the map because you can only have 4 heroes on the field at any time? If you are facing the Pheonix or other bosses where it is IMPOSSIBLE to kill the bosses without switching to a dsp hero also wouldnt run the map??? I am confused. For maps where towers do all the work I can see your point if you only need 4 different  heroes defences and nothing else. Since those heroes will boost their own defences. building with a monk +  an apprentice would mean either 2 players build separately or you afk one of those during the combat phase. And if you want to fight the dragon on summit hmm well I suppose you i could put towers where he might land and reduce towers on other lanes??? Then proceed to run around dodging his fireball until he finally dies??? I would love to see u do boss rush in NMHC with only 50 du and no dps hero or the olde one fight. 

Edited by dizzydiana

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59 minutes ago, dizzydiana said:

Am i correct that when we need 5 different heroes defences heck even just 4 you would not run the map because you can only have 4 heroes on the field at any time? If you are facing the Pheonix or other bosses where it is IMPOSSIBLE to kill the bosses without switching to a dsp hero also wouldnt run the map??? I am confused. For maps where towers do all the work I can see your point if you only need 4 different  heroes defences and nothing else. Since those heroes will boost their own defences. building with a monk +  an apprentice would mean either 2 players build separately or you afk one of those during the combat phase. And if you want to fight the dragon on summit hmm well I suppose you i could put towers where he might land and reduce towers on other lanes??? Then proceed to run around dodging his fireball until he finally dies??? I would love to see u do boss rush in NMHC with only 50 du and no dps hero or the olde one fight. 

Almost none of that is true.    Please explain to me how DDA with 4 hero classes will need defenses from 5 classes?   Also none of that is true for any of the announced maps for DDA.   And most of what you mentioned didn't exist for years.   It's like someone saying how wow was and you go not uh 12 years later they x y and z

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boss rush and Summit were in the vanilla game so....? im still failing to see your point. even on the PS3 which never had any dlc heroes I needed 5 builders  and hardest difficulty was Insane+ - 1 for walls, apprentice magic missiles/deadly strikers for wyverns (harpoons had issues with height and trying to hit through floors) , squire for harpoons and bowling balls,  Monks for auras and Huntress for traps as well as a dedicated DPS to help on bosses or to complete vanilla challenges like No towers on Deeper Well, Assualt and Moving Core. It does feel like you are suggesting I build the full map on one hero and then dps on the same hero. As I said form some maps this is fine. In survivals even in hard try building a map with spiders,goblin copters genies and sharken with just one hero. These WILL be in from the start with DDA. 

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