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VillainousTaco

Mana is too similar to DD2

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I liked how in DD1 you were given an abundance of mana and could hit your carrying capacity of mana several times over in a single wave. It always gave you something to do as you would constantly be upgrading defenses as you were running around fighting. The mana in DDA is unfortunately very similar to the way it was in DD2.

I just finished a survival run and towards the end the waves had 1200 enemies and yet I was only getting 700 mana from the entire wave. I might be alone in this but I really didn't care for the mana system of DD2 and it would be a shame to see it repeated in DDA.

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Agree 100% especially in survival I sometimes found myself in the middle of round with not enough mana to repair.   

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Mana in late DD1 was honestly too generous- and the bug with genies that the community blocked the CDT from fixing didn't really help either. I think we need more mana than we have now, but it's certainly a good thing that it isn't also the currency for the game anymore.

(essentially, mana was *supposed* to be a limiting factor, and it wasn't, pretty much the moment you finished the main campaign)

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DD1 ended up with several mechanics such as tower stacking, minions walls, buff beams and mana genies that were so powerful the game had to be balanced around them, blocking out all other similar tactics from use because they just weren't as strong

For instance, you couldn't use squire walls or apprentice walls anymore because the maps added late in the update cycle were made with the intent to break through the waaaay more durable and auto-repairing minion walls

Similarly, the genie pet was so powerful that you had to have one for a majority (if not all) of the waves on any given map, because the maps were made with an infinite amount of mana for upgrades in mind

I won't miss these things, as I'd prefer more variety in my strategies, although I do have a soft spot for balancing stuff on top of buff beams (prior to tower stacking becoming mandatory as well)

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I am not looking for mana drops like you could get from a genie pet, but it would be nice to get more man during waves in general. In survival at least it should be possible to max all defences before last wave and have some spare for repairing. This might not be too bad while we can only play up to insane but I can only imagine how restrictive the current mana would be for Nightmare or massacre once we get to full release. Avoiding pets like genie who gather mana from mobs could help with problems stated and avoiding abilities like jesters wheel of fortune. If there is no fast way to obtain mana from mobs or upgrade a defence cheaply I dont see an issue with increasing the mana dropped from enemies. I understand the desire not to repeat cheesing strategies, but there is more than one way to tackle it. 

Edited by dizzydiana
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I havent gotten onto the beta yet but will leave my 2 cents. Dd1mana was a joke although you wouldnt hit max du on wave 1 youd surely hit it wave 2. Also you could fully upgrade several things. Dd2 atleast made you upgrade strategically. 

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11 minutes ago, vosh said:

I havent gotten onto the beta yet but will leave my 2 cents. Dd1mana was a joke although you wouldnt hit max du on wave 1 youd surely hit it wave 2. Also you could fully upgrade several things. Dd2 atleast made you upgrade strategically. 

i not sure if your making a good point or not to be honest. In DD2 u can max du on most maps on wave 1 before combat phase, you can fully upgrade at lease 2 defences regardless of map by third or fourth wave. In DD1 without a genie pet you would not always max du on second wave many maps required to finish building during second or even into third wave, you might max a defence by the end of last wave maybe more in NM but again not guaranteed. The problem with DD1 was not the mana dropped as much as using pets like the genie. With mana only being for upgrading repairing and building towers I would not expect the same amount of mana per enemy like DD1, but just more than what drops atm. I dont think anyone is looking to have mana drops  like we could get from using genies with lupine bows, just more flexibilty than there is currently.

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First of all I think the split of "DD1 Mana" into "Mana" and "Gold" is a good thing. Having a separated currency will make balancing and handling of the economy much easier.

I did not like the second split of Mana into "Ability Mana" and "Defense Mana" in DD2 that much, although I can definitely see the benefits. This allows you to use your abilities without having to worry about wasting pressures Mana for your defenses. So maybe it was more the amount of Defense Mana, which I did not like in DD2, because I was used to upgrading everything much faster (even in early DD1 without a genie).

16 hours ago, RebulTv said:

Agree 100% especially in survival I sometimes found myself in the middle of round with not enough mana to repair.    

I have not played the beta yet, but if this is really the case, the repair skill should definitely be changed to using "ability mana", which is self-regenerating. It would also make more sense, because the repair skill is an ability.

Edited by The Ich

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As a little side not not directly in respect of the OP, but if the jester is to make a return in DDA the wheel of fortune NEEDS seriously re-worked. Being able to fully upgrade a defence with 150 mana or heal all towers and heroes for 150 mana just made the hero broken imo. The ability with a couple of jesters on the map to just kill every mob on the map if they time the wheels right is just too over powered. The jester is one hero I would not care if it didnt return at all unless a complete rework of the hero is done first.

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I agree, the current mana situation is unplayable. I'm thoroughly enjoying the game, but I'm at the point where I think I'm going to stop playing until this gets looked at. When you go from a decent amount of mana wave 3 to literally nothing wave 4 you aren't really playing the game. What is the point of being able to upgrade defenses if it's mathematically impossible to do so? I'd love to play survival, but you can only upgrade a handful of defenses 2-3 times, and that's it. Something not working? Guess you have to restart your run, because you can't rebuild it due to lack of mana.

It's not enjoyable gameplay.

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On 11/21/2019 at 5:42 AM, VillainousTaco said:

The mana in DDA is unfortunately very similar to the way it was in DD2.

Eh. The mana in DD2 was at least properly "balanced" and allowed you to fully max most non-spam builds in a regular run.

The mana in the beta honestly seems like it's either bugged or just not properly sorted out yet. Seemed to me like I was getting less mana on wave ~20 than wave 3 or so despite the fact you're killing like 100x the amount of mobs. It can't be right.

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On 11/21/2019 at 3:54 AM, Crombell said:

 

Similarly, the genie pet was so powerful that you had to have one for a majority (if not all) of the waves on any given map, because the maps were made with an infinite amount of mana for upgrades in mind
 

And in fact, the genie was so broken because of a bug that the community blocked us (in the CDT) from fixing. It was a legitimate bug in the code but the community was used to having it so we couldn't change it.

However the part about getting little mana later in survivals I do agree with and that needs to be bumped up. You can play through most of a survival and still not fully upgrade all your defenses.

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46 minutes ago, Alhanalem said:

However the part about getting little mana later in survivals I do agree with and that needs to be bumped up. You can play through most of a survival and still not fully upgrade all your defenses.

Any chance this will happen in beta? It feels pretty miserable to not be able to upgrade your defenses

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I think the mana might be a little borked at times one wave (14) gave 205 mana total. With upgrades being same amount as dd1 and not dd2 (needing 700 to get to  tier 4) it took me 2 or so waves to save up enough mana to upgrade ONE defence to tier 4. other times I have had more than enough mana, which makes me think it could be a bug.

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10 minutes ago, dizzydiana said:

I think the mana might be a little borked at times one wave (14) gave 205 mana total. With upgrades being same amount as dd1 and not dd2 (needing 700 to get to  tier 4) it took me 2 or so waves to save up enough mana to upgrade ONE defence to tier 4. other times I have had more than enough mana, which makes me think it could be a bug.

Seems like the first 3 waves I can end up with an abundance of 1500+ mana, then after that it just falls off. Sooner or later you need to go 4 waves to get the 4th tier upgrade if you account for repairing everything as well.

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Agree! I also miss the mana crystal physics, sucking up all that mana.

Not having a mana cap is a weird one, not sure how I feel about it yet. It was strange to have the mana to upgrade something and not the level required, unlike DD1.

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3 hours ago, xarta said:

Agree! I also miss the mana crystal physics, sucking up all that mana.

Not having a mana cap is a weird one, not sure how I feel about it yet. It was strange to have the mana to upgrade something and not the level required, unlike DD1.

It is weird, but I think the reason for this is so if you have say one hero at level 80 and another at level 75 for example you wont lose mana when changing heroes. This was an issue at times in Dd1 when not all heroes were the same level. Not having a mana cap lets you switch heroes without worrying if you will lose mana. You are still restricted in what you can upgrade up to level 60 (which is also what u needed to fully upgrade a defence in DD1). I see reasons where it can help but it does seem weird if you are sitting with like 3000 mana and nothing to spend it on.

Edited by dizzydiana
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I just miss the DD1 mana design. They looked better than DD2's ever managed. The different shapes/sizes/colors/glow as far as the gems was objectively better to me + the general physics and the way it acted. As far as the amount given, yeah, it's hard to tell in the beta. Right now it certainly seems like we're getting rather low amounts for things such as Survival. Which might be intended, admittedly, forcing more thought as far as what you upgrade when, but I don't know that for sure. 

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I think a lot of the changes here will be based around the fact that Mana is no longer a currency. It's going to be a reversal of what DD1 players are used to. Mana as a currency means you need enough to place defenses, upgrade stuff, use at shops, level gear/pets, trade other players with. Mana as just for playing maps means you don't need anywhere near as much.

This then becomes a problem of peoples need for big numbers. The bigger the number the better you feel about it whether it changes the outcome or not. In most people's minds, it doesn't matter if you do 10 damage to a mob with 100 hp or 1,000,000 damage to a mob with 10,000,000 hp, these are doing the exact same thing but people want to see the bigger numbers. If they increase the amount of Mana you get by 10 or 100 times, to balance everything out the cost of everything will go up by 10 or 100 times.

Now if balance is off then that's an entirely different issue, though after playing past most of the beta and getting into the end survivals I don't feel this is the case. I think the real problem with lack of Mana is the floor limit being hit so easily which then deletes older Mana from the floor making it feel like you get less if you are unable to get to it all in time.

The solution is less Mana in greater values or increasing the floor limit. Right now Green is worth 1, Blue is 5 and Yellow is 50. They should increase it to Green is 5, Blue is 25 and Yellow is 50, then drop less so the floor doesn't reach its limit as easily.

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47 minutes ago, Exglint said:

I think a lot of the changes here will be based around the fact that Mana is no longer a currency. It's going to be a reversal of what DD1 players are used to. Mana as a currency means you need enough to place defenses, upgrade stuff, use at shops, level gear/pets, trade other players with. Mana as just for playing maps means you don't need anywhere near as much.

This then becomes a problem of peoples need for big numbers. The bigger the number the better you feel about it whether it changes the outcome or not. In most people's minds, it doesn't matter if you do 10 damage to a mob with 100 hp or 1,000,000 damage to a mob with 10,000,000 hp, these are doing the exact same thing but people want to see the bigger numbers. If they increase the amount of Mana you get by 10 or 100 times, to balance everything out the cost of everything will go up by 10 or 100 times.

Now if balance is off then that's an entirely different issue, though after playing past most of the beta and getting into the end survivals I don't feel this is the case. I think the real problem with lack of Mana is the floor limit being hit so easily which then deletes older Mana from the floor making it feel like you get less if you are unable to get to it all in time.

The solution is less Mana in greater values or increasing the floor limit. Right now Green is worth 1, Blue is 5 and Yellow is 50. They should increase it to Green is 5, Blue is 25 and Yellow is 50, then drop less so the floor doesn't reach its limit as easily.

While I somewhat agree with you about things like number size, not being able to upgrade your defenses (or replace them if they die) is a serious flaw in design. I feel like it's more bug than design problem though. I wish we could get a response on it :(

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Well I was constantly running around the map shooting wildly so I just had all the Mana I needed. I don't think it should be like that so I agree that something needs to be looked at to make sure the Mana that does drop is used/picked up and not just evaporated into the void making it feel like we just never have enough.

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I might be wrong but i found some survivals felt wrong with mana. gaining 200 mana in  wave where u need 700 to get a defence to the next tier or even 1220 to max it just felt restrictive. I assumed there was some bug somewhere as also there were times there was no additional mana given out at the end of the wave from a certain point. When I actually took time to notice if my mana increased during building phase is when i noticed this. When I saw others with similar issues unable to upgrade a defense for a few waves I presumed it was intentional. It is only after finding a few runs where I ended up with more mana than I could spend I started to think perhaps there i s a bug with mana and people were just being unlucky. Unless i know what is intentional for mana the lower amount with none at end of wave or gaining larger amounts of mana I dont think I can comment on the amount that drops.

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