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brokenwoody4

Guilding Hypers

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I'm totally glad that we have CG's confirmation on this issue! Thanks Dani! :)

20 hours ago, brokenwoody4 said:

So why are people saying the power creep would be an issue?

While I'm aware that a gilded Hypers might be lackluster. There is also the point of "what if I don't want to gild them because I want to use them separately."

That's still seven Mass Destructions and Viscious Strikes.

Edited by Paloverde zfogshooterz
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Power creep to me... If the game continues to raise the amount of attack power that you can gain, but fails to raise enemy levels at a proportional rate - an imbalance is created. One where the game becomes easier to the point of breaking it if left unchecked. People desire challenge, and a lack thereof is a disservice to new and veteran players alike. 

Wanting more power, or to even by OP is not a bad thing. Heck, it's probably why a lot of us play the game. But as you gain all that power, the game makers need to keep finding new ways for you to use or not use it, to make things interesting. The challenge. As you gain that top level, they need to inch the top line a few notches further up. Power creep is when you are way up above that line (and so is everybody else). The game is then out of balance, and that is usually when people tend to stop playing. 

Eh, just my theory...

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So I understand the points about power creep, but I do have one issue with it.  

First, my plan is to get some really good gear and shards.  Make an initial push to floor 300 or so and AP reset.  After that I'll max as much of my stuff to chaos 8 and make a floor push hopefully into the 700's.  This is why I would be motivated to do the AP resets and get additional Hypers if they would allow it.

My issue with power creep is there is a built in system for countering it, and that is onslaught.  I have the feeling that we should be able to obtain as much power as possible and then go to the highest floor possible.  The differentiation of higher floors will show skill and placement.  Allowing the Hyper shards would not be unfair, as everyone would have access to them, and it actually would require more maps than Mastery to obtain.

I do not believe anyone can say they are so overpowered right now or ever, because of Onslaught.  We will always/eventually meet a floor that is more powerful.  What content are people worried about being too overpowered for??

Expeditions are a joke, I did the primes at ascension 800...the challenge is onslaught in my mind.

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2 hours ago, brokenwoody4 said:

So I understand the points about power creep, but I do have one issue with it.  

First, my plan is to get some really good gear and shards.  Make an initial push to floor 300 or so and AP reset.  After that I'll max as much of my stuff to chaos 8 and make a floor push hopefully into the 700's.  This is why I would be motivated to do the AP resets and get additional Hypers if they would allow it.

My issue with power creep is there is a built in system for countering it, and that is onslaught.  I have the feeling that we should be able to obtain as much power as possible and then go to the highest floor possible.  The differentiation of higher floors will show skill and placement.  Allowing the Hyper shards would not be unfair, as everyone would have access to them, and it actually would require more maps than Mastery to obtain.

I do not believe anyone can say they are so overpowered right now or ever, because of Onslaught.  We will always/eventually meet a floor that is more powerful.  What content are people worried about being too overpowered for??

Expeditions are a joke, I did the primes at ascension 800...the challenge is onslaught in my mind.

That's not quite correct. Onslaught is not a counter to the creep issue, and AP resets are part of the problem. You can beat absolutely everything in DD2, including climbing hundreds of Onslaught floors, without ever AP resetting. That makes all gains you get beyond that are the power creep. You don't need to gild. You don't need Hypershards. You don't need to reset. Sure, they help and are a ton of fun - but wholly unnecessary, and only serve to erode the challenge of the game.

Now, don't interpret that as a call to remove those features. That is more of a slam on CG for not continuing to nudge the top bar up to give any of that power meaning. There is no end game in DD2. Onslaught? Unique benefits stop at like fl 85 or so, and there is nothing at the end of the rainbow. No special title, flair or ending for reaching 999. You just reset....again. Primes? Mutiple threads on how easy they are. C7? Don't make me gut laugh. And what happens if you do push for 999 talent caps? A game so easy, it bores you to tears. That's power creep. 

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I left this game after hitting ascension 150 back in 2017.  I returned in August of 2019 and I saw quite a bit was done.  After returning, I thought there was clear end game in Onslaught, as it is a mode that scales up, and there is an objective leader, or strongest player.  I would not call climbing hundreds of Onslaught floors, beating onslaught.  To beat Onslaught, that's something each person has to decide on their own, which is a pretty good end game.

I personally want to climb high on the leaderboard.  I intend to reach a point where the Power Creep issue is irrelevant.  What are you doing in this game if you are not pushing or intending on pushing Onslaught Floors?

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Enjoying myself and not letting CG or anyone else telling me how to enjoy the game. I hate Onslaught mode and i almost never play it. If that tickles your fancy, go for it. That's how YOU enjoy the game.

But that has no bearing on the creep issue. No one should be expected to play thousands of hours just to reach floor 900+, and for what? Pride? Again, benefits stop round 85, so you are not gaining anything on floor 900, that someone else is getting on 90, other than a massive loss of your time. Unless you enjoy the hamster wheel. Then run in it all you want. Being in a high floor does not necessarily make you a good player though, because of the creep. With enough time, and youtube, anyone can achieve the same. This is not a skill based game. It's a patience one. With gilded shards, Hypershards, level 10 c8 mods, and 999 talent caps (all achievable by time, except maybe HSs) - all you need to then know is how to counter mutators. That's it. That's all of Onslaught - countering mutators. No thought needed, no unique builds required. See setup A, then build def B. For 900 floors. That's why i do not like that mode. 

To each their own...

If you really want to thumb your nose at power creep, see if you can reach 999 in Onslaught without relying on meta builds, ap resets, c8 gear, or Hypershards. That would eliminate much of the creep and be a challenge. But self control and self imposed limitations? That is more rare in this game than fri dev streams and CG updates 😉

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"See setup A, then build def B. For 900 floors. That's why i do not like that mode." Jaws

That's exactly why I do not use Youtube and do not use the META. I'm still swapping out shards, traps, relics and am having a fun time doing it. AP resetting and the use of META builds would have killed my interest long ago. How I approach Onslaught  floors requires thought and consideration; it keeps my appreciation for DD2 alive.

Edited by ArchaicLotus
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I guess I don't understand what content you are playing.  If you aren't playing onslaught, where are you trying out these builds?  

The benefits on floor 90 versus 900 in regards to materials is way better, takes less time and the drop rate is the same as I understand.  The difference is reaching 900 would be a challenge.  I suppose you are using fun builds and such to clear easier content?  I stated above each person would have to decide when they beat Onslaught, but in reality each person tries to define their own end game.  From the way I see it, achieving maximum floor shows your power "as a defender" and in my opinion would be the end game per design.  It literally never ends right?

People keep referencing META builds, and I really do not know what that means.  I don't have  legacy WM's, so i feel like i'd be at a disadvantage while climbing, which I do like, and I can understand the draw to not AP resetting or using the META builds you refer to.

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1 hour ago, Jaws_420 said:

 

To each their own...

If you really want to thumb your nose at power creep, see if you can reach 999 in Onslaught without relying on meta builds, ap resets, c8 gear, or Hypershards. That would eliminate much of the creep and be a challenge. But self control and self imposed limitations? That is more rare in this game than fri dev streams and CG updates 😉

I'd like to see if I can reach 700 in Onslaught using AP resets, C8 gear, Hypeshards, guilded Shards, and everything at my disposal.  Why would I handicap myself before that?  Why would you suggest that to anyone?

The self control and self imposed limitations are not needed and "That's how YOU enjoy the game", maybe...

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I'm not sure what the acronym M.E.T.A. stands for; something synonymous with "mass appeal." Currently, DD2 has a mass appeal build of refelect wall, proton beam (with poison so reflect wall and beam together petrify), built with a boost aura with lightning strikes, flame aura, lava fissure all next to the spawn. It is cut-and-paste and requires no thought. I get it, I just don't use it. My instinctive self-imposed control is to resist what most everyone is doing and find an alternative way.

"I'd like to see if I can reach 700 in Onslaught using AP resets, C8 gear, Hypeshards, guilded Shards, and everything at my disposal.  Why would I handicap myself before that?  Why would you suggest that to anyone?" BrokenWoody

exactly.

Lotus

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Oh, well I have that as an option.  It definitely doesn't take care of every lane.

You have to modify or abandon that setup for headstrong, unstoppable, spell breaker, cursi-kaze, high rollers or a heavy frosty lane.  You can also get away with less on Just Timmy lanes and game Ogre.

 

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"You have to modify or abandon that setup for headstrong, unstoppable, spell breaker, cursi-kaze, high rollers or a heavy frosty lane."

Incorrect. That is why the META is so popular. With the right mods/shards it clear/stuns all lanes. Especially if coupled with legacy weapon's manufacturer (water shard/shocking revelations combo). I watched a companion clear any lane and every ruleset with this a while back. They quit as of now. You're forgetting c8 tenacity 10/10.

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Also overcapping defense rate allows it to ignore Frost Orc slow. It literally strips Onslaught of any skill or challenge just like the Water Servo/SR build before it which is why that mod combo was disabled.

Onslaught is also not infinite, floor 999 is max and CG had to put up a massive HP wall on the enemies to stop people from effortlessly progressing towards it. This HP wall is the integer limit for the game so they cant go any higher, which means the game cannot get any harder, so if we get more powerful and continue progressing then there is nothing CG can do to make it a challenge anymore. In order to reverse this they need to deal out some nerfs which the playerbase has voiced hatred about and will probably always hate the idea of.

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37 minutes ago, Exglint said:

Also overcapping defense rate allows it to ignore Frost Orc slow. It literally strips Onslaught of any skill or challenge just like the Water Servo/SR build before it which is why that mod combo was disabled.

Onslaught is also not infinite, floor 999 is max and CG had to put up a massive HP wall on the enemies to stop people from effortlessly progressing towards it. This HP wall is the integer limit for the game so they cant go any higher, which means the game cannot get any harder, so if we get more powerful and continue progressing then there is nothing CG can do to make it a challenge anymore. In order to reverse this they need to deal out some nerfs which the playerbase has voiced hatred about and will probably always hate the idea of.

Great post. I did not know about the integer max. That explains a lot.

DD2 really has capped out then...in terms of full power. Sounds like their best bet would be to create a new mode like mastery that can baseline stats how they see fit, or universal nerfs across the game. Otherwise our elusive true endgame mode doesn't seem physically possible based on this info... If that is the case though, why wouldn't CG explain that on the forum to us? 

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You know, I have advocated wide range nerfs across the board to bring us back to the shinning days of early Onslaught when floor 200 was pretty much the best you could get, but the community seems to just get rowdy at the idea. CG might be afraid of the unyielding backlash such a balance pass would bring. Players have just gotten so comfortable with the concept of doing very little to nothing and winning that they refuse to go back to actually playing the game when they had the taste of AFK city.

Bringing some defenses down a peg and buffing ones that we dont use much or at all would bring back some of the most interesting parts of the game like walls. Though that does mean that the game will no longer be AFK able which will be the hangup spot for players.

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11 minutes ago, Exglint said:

You know, I have advocated wide range nerfs across the board to bring us back to the shinning days of early Onslaught when floor 200 was pretty much the best you could get, but the community seems to just get rowdy at the idea. CG might be afraid of the unyielding backlash such a balance pass would bring. Players have just gotten so comfortable with the concept of doing very little to nothing and winning that they refuse to go back to actually playing the game when they had the taste of AFK city.

Bringing some defenses down a peg and buffing ones that we dont use much or at all would bring back some of the most interesting parts of the game like walls. Though that does mean that the game will no longer be AFK able which will be the hangup spot for players.

I'd be in favor of that. Big time. Cut all power by a digit and break up all the metas! Be like DD2:Reawakening ha ha. Or just a complete reroll on power, like they did when they switched out from all crit builds to rate builds. Was basically a brand new game in many ways... 

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If anything there is also the problem of the onslaught wall. 

Looking at leaderboard everyone gets stuck around 947-948-949 because scaling goes up way faster then. 

Not sure why they had to have a scaling of around 172 level per floor suddenly change to 402 500 level per floor after 945. Would have made more sense to have an higher and progressive scaling. 

Well I know actually ...they wanted to stop onslaught climbers from beating the game without turning the general population against them. 

Back when they nerfed tube and oreck set-up (that wasn't even op) they clearly showed that they just wanted people to stop climbing.

Just to give the illusion of difficulty... 

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This all really started with Mods when people wanted counters , to things like cyborgs. Remember the day people thought those where hard and Geo actually stopped stuff???? Careful what you ask for .....

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1 hour ago, uzar said:

This all really started with Mods when people wanted counters , to things like cyborgs. Remember the day people thought those where hard and Geo actually stopped stuff???? Careful what you ask for .....

Or when the berserker orcs could actually be slown by few traps/towers because it reads, "highly resistant to slowing effects", not immune. So Trendy allowed traps/towers to work on berserkers according to the descrptor until the community griped about having to use certain heroes. I remember the two poster children for that argument. Now, beware headstrong berserkers.

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On 11/15/2019 at 5:13 PM, ArchaicLotus said:

"You have to modify or abandon that setup for headstrong, unstoppable, spell breaker, cursi-kaze, high rollers or a heavy frosty lane."

Incorrect. That is why the META is so popular. With the right mods/shards it clear/stuns all lanes. Especially if coupled with legacy weapon's manufacturer (water shard/shocking revelations combo). I watched a companion clear any lane and every ruleset with this a while back. They quit as of now. You're forgetting c8 tenacity 10/10.

So this is ineffective against headstrong berserkers right, and spell breaker controlled burn lanes.  There's not many lanes mutators that can mess this up, but the combos of a frost lane with controlled burn or spell breaker would rough it up.

Also, the cursikaze lane will mess this up unless everything has a 10/10 tenacity.  Pair that with frost, spell breaker, headstrong.

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The META includes proton beams with Frosty Shard which freezes berserker orcs. Overclockwork of Defense Rate for Frosty lanes (ExGlint explained that). It is a META because it is effective against all rulesets. Every Onslaught, but one now, that I've joined is using it. I'm sure plenty of players have videos of the mod/shard combos that make it so effective. I cannot further educate you on this set-up. I don't use it. Research it thoroughly and all of your questions will be resolved.

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1 hour ago, ArchaicLotus said:

The META includes proton beams with Frosty Shard which freezes berserker orcs. Overclockwork of Defense Rate for Frosty lanes (ExGlint explained that). It is a META because it is effective against all rulesets. Every Onslaught, but one now, that I've joined is using it. I'm sure plenty of players have videos of the mod/shard combos that make it so effective. I cannot further educate you on this set-up. I don't use it. Research it thoroughly and all of your questions will be resolved.

Yeah this is meta its easy to setup and afk but does get boring / best for ap resets though 

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It seems that every game that does not balance builds, including Diablo, Helldivers, Assasin's Creed, etcetera, seem to get boring. Developers are so consumed with the "what's making money now" philisophy (I understand) that they forget the creative aspects that keep a game continuosly interesting. They also adhere to a META philosophy, so-to-speak.

Edited by ArchaicLotus

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16 hours ago, ArchaicLotus said:

The META includes proton beams with Frosty Shard which freezes berserker orcs. Overclockwork of Defense Rate for Frosty lanes (ExGlint explained that). It is a META because it is effective against all rulesets. Every Onslaught, but one now, that I've joined is using it. I'm sure plenty of players have videos of the mod/shard combos that make it so effective. I cannot further educate you on this set-up. I don't use it. Research it thoroughly and all of your questions will be resolved.

Headstrong

Instead of being immune to slows, Headstrong enemies are immune to stuns. You will want to use Frostbite Towers, Proton Beams, or Boost Auras with a Boosted Grasp shard to help control these monsters.

Air lanes usually don't benefit from being headstrong, as most flyers move very slowly. However, should you encounter a headstrong assassin, taking them off of you can be extremely difficult. Without the ability to stun, your only options are to either kill the assassin quickly with high DPS, or wait out the bind. If you have a Barbarian in your deck, Turtle Stance can prevent assassins from binding you in the first place.

If you're unlucky enough to end up with a headstrong Berserker Orc or Frost Enemy on a high-level floor, it essentially becomes impossible to control the lane, because the enemies will be too strong for any blockades to handle. You can try to distract these enemies with a melee hero, but at a high level, they can easily kill you with a single blow. If you aren't confident that you can defend against headstrong beserkers or frost mobs, your best option is to intentionally lose and re-roll the level

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That is the definition above.  I do not believe the frosty shard works on these lanes but I could be wrong, but even then it is not 100%. 

You also spent all that time telling people they shouldn't use this META, but then tell me to research it.  My apologies for not understanding the META build you hate so much.  The point I'm making that this build is not 100% efficient, but it may be very effective.

To clarify, this maybe a good general use build, but as you climb higher in onslaught, you will find there are more efficient or effective builds against certain mutators and enemy comps.

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