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giux

Make PRIME VI - Betsy good. Please.

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I understand your struggle CG, you are working on making DDA great and we are all hyped about it.

If I can be honest though Prime incursions so far feel easy, mostly afk and with underwhelming rewards which makes them not worth farming.

The rewards are the literal same from PRIME I to PRIME IV so far, which makes me think why would anyone run more difficult primes? For a different skin? For a little added chance on c8 amps which are worth close to nothing at this point? I don't think so.

This endgame content doesn't drop any mats or shards which are pretty essential for making money/progressing at endgame stage (things like clusters for c8 5/5 progression or motes for resetting).

The skins are nice but the drop rate it's low and again it's only the weapon, having a c8 5/5 weapon doesn't really make me progress or make me clear any harder content (also there isn't any content I can't clear, but that's another story). Gold/exp wise c7 draken is still better and faster so again no reason.

What I'm asking is PLEASE make PRIME VI - Betsy hard content and with GOOD rewards. DON'T make it a floor 400 scaling with the same rewards as Prime I because in that case why would anyone farm Betsy over Prime I ?!

Betsy is the final boss, it should have broken rewards and be hard/ not afkable even for the current endgame players.

 

This is my advice of what Betsy should be:

Scaling at floor ~900 + need to fight boss manually (Towers don't work on Betsy), only solo mode (no carries allowed), always legendary chest

Chest with: 

50% 5/5 c8 weapon 

20% jackpot of 5mil gold 

30% 10/10 random mod from curated pool 

100% 50x stack of a curated c7 mats (amps or clusters or motes) 

100% c8 shard

Obviously this is just an advice, but it would be something. It would give reason to farm it over lower Primes and make it some sort of true endgame content.

It would also be something to strive for all the players that aren't at that endgame level yet, which I think it's always an healthy thing in a game. Not everything should be easy and accessible because that makes gearing up pointless.

Hope is last to die, thank you all.

 

Edited by giux
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I fully agree that this is the right difficulty for the final Prime. There is still time to adjust the numbers; I will put my hope into signing under this post and making a difference.

As for rewards listed above, they look really well-balanced except for the material drops. 50 clusters is a lot, I'd change that from having either of those to 20 Clusters and 30-40 Motes per game.
 

I like the idea of preventing carries - it's actually necessary for last Prime (wish it was like that for all Primes).
It would be best to force players into beating it solo only on first playthrough, while allowing them to play/farm together afterwards.
I have a few random ideas for such a system and its components, but since I don't know how the game is written, some options will assume the way certain mechanics are made, that's why I'm dropping as many alternative ideas as I can think of into subsections a-d.

  1. Steam Block. A way to block players from joining through Steam.
    a) Change player limit from 4 to 1.
    b) Mark session as unjoinable as it is created - similarly to Expeditions after Combat Phase 3 and Mastery after Warmup Phase.
    c) Set gearscore requirements of the game to an unreachable value like 12,000 (maximum is 11,381 or 11,382) after the player loads into session. Any joining players will be kicked (would require for the current gearscore requirement system to be fixed).
    d) Additional script that kicks players as they try to join.
  2. Anti-Carry.
    a) Forced solo on first playthrough. Have 2 identical copies of the map in War Table - Map A and Map B:
        A has Steam Block enabled.
        B is unlocked after Map A is beaten - the same way Campaign and Adventures work. It shows normally in the War Table allowing anyone who has it unlocked to join.
    b) High gearscore requirement. Setting it to 11,000+ will prevent a large majority of players from being carried (and give some more meaning to gearscore, haha).
    c) Limited rewards. The map won't drop full (or any) rewards for players who dealt less than 5% of total damage dealt by all players counting either heroes and defences. Or counting both heroes and defences, that way if only one person builds no one else will get the special rewards (including hyper shards).

For both of these there's one more option - it can be done already with 2 lines of code and the developers are laughing while reading this ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

I hope this helps to develop some form of anti-carry system and/or to convince Chromatic to implement it. Endgame content really needs it.

Edited by Random Persson

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i agree only 1% or less should be able to complete it because the casual players who don't have the time to play 12 hours a day  because of work and other things don't deserve great items from the game  [ sarcasm  ]

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12 minutes ago, playertt said:

i agree only 1% or less should be able to complete it because the casual players who don't have the time to play 12 hours a day  because of work and other things don't deserve great items from the game  [ sarcasm  ]

This is exactly the opposite. All of the rewards listed are obtainable in the game already, just require an absolute ton of time to farm due to very low drop rates. This kind of system would allow players who are most skilled and/or have prepared a powerful build to get those items quicker as opposed to taking a break from the game, because farming them is too boring - this happens to be my case.
Counterpoint 2: The only thing semi-exclusive to Primes are hyper shards. Instead of having to spend 40 hours going through Mastery you can now get those with just a few games, just on much higher difficulty.
Counterpoint 3: Primes are supposed to be a top endgame update. At least one of them should be beatable only by the 1%, don't you think? That's the whole point of adding endgame content. You already have all the other Primes accessible by the majority of players. Let us endgamers have at least one fun challenge in this game.

So far everything in the game was based on how much time you can pour into it. Let's make this update a change in the right direction.

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inb4 they do this but also include a balance pass to petrify and SR/Water :kappa:

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I find funny how much some stuffs can reach both extremes in this forum..

Your idea of crazy setups is good in a sense but fall offf when you think of a challenge way.Especially beat without defenses help..I dont know if you want to get 1ko constantly or betsy have no real counter attacks against heroes to think than this is doable fast.

A challenge to be consistent always need to receive a increment/get harder or become just a hard thing lol.Will become just a repetition after some time (grind)

The big thing is also than a guy that beat a 900 floor most likely wont need those kind of rewards because he is pretty much set for everything than he think that is needed.Hyper shards offers something than he doesnt have already but other than that is all ordinary.

Something than they should had done imo was to bring three difficulty with the actual being wht its is (medium) and having a hard (2x hp) and lunatic/nightmare (3xhp) and offering for beating those two some kind of extra reward like you propose but lowered down depending of the prime lv.(one time only rewards)

I hope as well than betsy is stronger than 400 floor but with your setups i dont think than they will even think considering the way is getting handled right now. 

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I don't think it matters whether defences can or cannot hit Betsy when you're actually playing the map - not afking. Your heroes should do at least 5x the DPS your defences do. Also, I personally like that you need to stay alive to damage Betsy - otherwise you could just wait it out even if you can't play the game and copied someone's overpowered build. Being not dead is a skill many new players don't have.

6 hours ago, DanielMenezes2 said:

A challenge to be consistent always need to receive a increment/get harder or become just a hard thing lol.Will become just a repetition after some time (grind)

That's how this game works though, it's a grind game. We're not talking about endgame players having a hard time trying to beat it - it's about making the map fun (at least on first playthrough). When the difficulty is way too low having fun becomes hard.

6 hours ago, DanielMenezes2 said:

The big thing is also than a guy that beat a 900 floor most likely wont need those kind of rewards because he is pretty much set for everything than he think that is needed.Hyper shards offers something than he doesnt have already but other than that is all ordinary.

It's not for people who beat floor 900. It's for people at floors 200+, who can just give this a shot without spending 300 hours on grinding through Onslaught and maybe getting repetitively bullied by Lag Temple. For those players the 2 hyper shards will be a great reward, while all the other rewards are for the endgamers able to grind that map.

6 hours ago, DanielMenezes2 said:

Something than they should had done imo was to bring three difficulty with the actual being wht its is (medium) and having a hard (2x hp) and lunatic/nightmare (3xhp) and offering for beating those two some kind of extra reward like you propose but lowered down depending of the prime lv.(one time only rewards)

I do agree that's a great idea, but that would require much more work and time which CG doesn't have right now. That's why we are talking about applying fast and easy changes in hopes of having something interesting from this update for the time being, so that we have this content for the next 6+ months while they finish up the DDA.

Also, most non-endgamers will move to DDA completely - while most of the update was dialed towards a larger playerbase than just top endgame players, just this 1 map could be different without hurting anyone. That is all we ask for. Personally, I don't even care about rewards - I just want a fun map that won't get obliterated the moment I place a few defences.

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As mentioned in another thread, CG does not mean for this to be the only or final endgame content...we hope. To that end, Betsy should not be a 1% prime IMO. Why? Extremely rude to allow others to get some extra HS's, but if you want that last 1, you gotta be a master or 900 flr reset able? Way too exclusive for how Primes are being rolled out. Obviously this content was meant to be accessible to a bigger range.

That being said - i still think DD2 desperately needs a true 1% gamemode. One that scales to player levels and is never easy. A true test that rewards no gear, because what would you play with it on? Should give titles, flair, and all the mats you need to reset like crazy. 

My point is that a 1% mode would be better as a separate release geared towards that end, and not shoehorned in on the end of something that intially was quite accessible. 

Edited by Jaws_420
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10 hours ago, Random Persson said:

I don't think it matters whether defences can or cannot hit Betsy when you're actually playing the map - not afking. Your heroes should do at least 5x the DPS your defences do. Also, I personally like that you need to stay alive to damage Betsy - otherwise you could just wait it out even if you can't play the game and copied someone's overpowered build. Being not dead is a skill many new players don't have.

That's how this game works though, it's a grind game. We're not talking about endgame players having a hard time trying to beat it - it's about making the map fun (at least on first playthrough). When the difficulty is way too low having fun becomes hard.

It's not for people who beat floor 900. It's for people at floors 200+, who can just give this a shot without spending 300 hours on grinding through Onslaught and maybe getting repetitively bullied by Lag Temple. For those players the 2 hyper shards will be a great reward, while all the other rewards are for the endgamers able to grind that map.

I do agree that's a great idea, but that would require much more work and time which CG doesn't have right now. That's why we are talking about applying fast and easy changes in hopes of having something interesting from this update for the time being, so that we have this content for the next 6+ months while they finish up the DDA.

Also, most non-endgamers will move to DDA completely - while most of the update was dialed towards a larger playerbase than just top endgame players, just this 1 map could be different without hurting anyone. That is all we ask for. Personally, I don't even care about rewards - I just want a fun map that won't get obliterated the moment I place a few defences.

It matters a lot.i dont exactly recall wht is the pattern movements of betsy or if she has immunity to status like stun but giving such a rough restriction cripples support heroes like dryad,mages, the female monk and mystic and others than cant really be even this (which is debatable if even have a roll in this game) like lavamancer is unplayable.

Ps:Maybe female monk is just as good or better to dish dps than a monk and also i know for my own cause than a mystic has very lowavg dmg alone..i constantly used dark torment to focus on a boss when i played onslaught.

About the 2st you may are underestimating the lv with the mechanic of betsy works..if tenacity doesnt work its way harder to deal with the ground curse of betsy.Fun for a game is a abstract concept. maybe the only legit moments that i have that with the game was when i played the content new with my weak starter defenses with my brother which was untill floor 56 of the old system i believe..It's part of the game to grow but come to a point which get stalled.

The problem of fun of this game is taked by me atleast for now is: the big lack of ballance between tower vs tower, towers vs mobs and the fact than the only objective for every map is to simple win in any mode on this game with the exception of mastery which maybe was the reason than i didnt feel bitter about playing like some players may let it be thought.

It was my initial thinking about those prime and why i got disappointed for wht is the hp for primes now.Simulate in a lower standards wht would be a higher lv mobs but if you are legit 200+ you wont win solo a 900+ because is probably a cap hp scale by then..Onslaught have a huge problem which is not enable players to instantly go back to his highest floor achieved if not the game mode would feel way less like time sink.The grind is more about playing constantly one at one floors that got just slight harder further killing your motivation of playing by repetition.

There is nothing hard to implement from wht i suggest.Is just create a higher scale for hard and lunatic mode and offer as reward a certain cluster/mote reward in the end.

Its wht everyone want.Something little above the threshold of we have but sadly is simple hard because of multiple players in different stages..Is hard to catter a big audience (veteran players) when they already stablish the somewhat easy setups for wht is prime 4/1 now.The 3 different difficulty would be maybe the best solution.

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On 9/21/2019 at 8:12 PM, playertt said:

i agree only 1% or less should be able to complete it because the casual players who don't have the time to play 12 hours a day  because of work and other things don't deserve great items from the game  [ sarcasm  ]

:gobmas: I think u should only be able to beat Betsy after a total game playtime of 10000 hours 

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21 minutes ago, ColobelSpike82 said:

:gobmas: I think u should only be able to beat Betsy after a total game playtime of 10000 hours 

I think you should be able to start the game only after Steam stops asking you "Do you even play this game?"

Screenshot.png

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Why be so crazy. I understand people want a challenge, and for many Prime is a challenge. However, Prime as an incursion should be repayable. Instead it's just mastery without the effort.

Extending Mastery to c8+ and opening the floor cap would work to give the 1% something to get their teeth into without screwing everyone else. 

Edited by Little Magic Hat

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On 9/21/2019 at 7:51 AM, giux said:

I understand your struggle CG, you are working on making DDA great and we are all hyped about it.

If I can be honest though Prime incursions so far feel easy, mostly afk and with underwhelming rewards which makes them not worth farming.

The rewards are the literal same from PRIME I to PRIME IV so far, which makes me think why would anyone run more difficult primes? For a different skin? For a little added chance on c8 amps which are worth close to nothing at this point? I don't think so.

This endgame content doesn't drop any mats or shards which are pretty essential for making money/progressing at endgame stage (things like clusters for c8 5/5 progression or motes for resetting).

The skins are nice but the drop rate it's low and again it's only the weapon, having a c8 5/5 weapon doesn't really make me progress or make me clear any harder content (also there isn't any content I can't clear, but that's another story). Gold/exp wise c7 draken is still better and faster so again no reason.

What I'm asking is PLEASE make PRIME VI - Betsy hard content and with GOOD rewards. DON'T make it a floor 400 scaling with the same rewards as Prime I because in that case why would anyone farm Betsy over Prime I ?!

Betsy is the final boss, it should have broken rewards and be hard/ not afkable even for the current endgame players.

 

This is my advice of what Betsy should be:


Scaling at floor ~900 + need to fight boss manually (Towers don't work on Betsy), only solo mode (no carries allowed), always legendary chest

Chest with: 

50% 5/5 c8 weapon 

20% jackpot of 5mil gold 

30% 10/10 random mod from curated pool 

100% 50x stack of a curated c7 mats (amps or clusters or motes) 

100% c8 shard

Obviously this is just an advice, but it would be something. It would give reason to farm it over lower Primes and make it some sort of true endgame content.

It would also be something to strive for all the players that aren't at that endgame level yet, which I think it's always an healthy thing in a game. Not everything should be easy and accessible because that makes gearing up pointless.

Hope is last to die, thank you all.

 

I bet you 100mill you cannot afk power surge  prime and return of malthius prime, so brag with caution. I will also guarantee I’ll double my bet that you will back out on this bet. No worries it’s ok to back out on this bet.

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Posted (edited)

Return of malthius ? That one was afk .....

But yeah I couldn't afk power surge, I had to place 1 wm every 20 seconds 

 

As far as rewards go, defense skins would be nice, an upgrade to pet system, cool shiny flairs.

But I truly hope that Betsy will be somewhat engaging and not 100% afk like all other primes (beside power surge, but you know ...it wasn't hard , just slightly more annoying) 

Edited by Zombiewookie

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Yeah, I will definitely agree that there should be some cosmetic rewards (Tower Skins and Flairs is awesome enough!) as a more compelling carrot for completing the gamemode. Personally, while second hyper shards are nice, I don't really felt that compelled to get them as I've already experienced them in Mastery.

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My only request is make it worth farming. It's a fun, nice looking map that I don't mind seeing occasionally when a new player asks for help on it, and would like to play more. Put a normal amount of motes, gold, amps, exp, and drops in it, make the drop from the dragon a random C8 weapon from any of the other Primes, and you're good to go. Just making the drops equivalent to C7 Draken plus a weapon and occasionaly a C8 amp should do that. Otherwise it will be like the rest of rhe incursions, farmed for a few weeks, then forgotton other than occasional once through for the hyper shard.

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On 10/2/2019 at 9:40 PM, Neoneo said:

I bet you 100mill you cannot afk power surge  prime and return of malthius prime, so brag with caution. I will also guarantee I’ll double my bet that you will back out on this bet. No worries it’s ok to back out on this bet.

Maldonis Prime was fully afkable, so there goes your 100M already.

As for Surge Prime.. I give it 90% probability of it being possible with a basic right-click+G autoclicker.

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21 minutes ago, Random Persson said:

Maldonis Prime was fully afkable, so there goes your 100M already.

As for Surge Prime.. I give it 90% probability of it being possible with a basic right-click+G autoclicker.

i believe he said and surge / also for maldonis i wonder just how many players could afk it not many my guess 

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On 10/6/2019 at 4:12 PM, Random Persson said:

Maldonis Prime was fully afkable, so there goes your 100M already.

As for Surge Prime.. I give it 90% probability of it being possible with a basic right-click+G autoclicker.

AFK

 

On 10/6/2019 at 4:12 PM, Random Persson said:

Maldonis Prime was fully afkable, so there goes your 100M already.

As for Surge Prime.. I give it 90% probability of it being possible with a basic right-click+G autoclicker.

Umm afk is the term use for not doing anything, like sleeping or doing no work so please go ahead post a video I’d be willing to give you the 100 m but do remember also that if you loose you loose 100m. Power surge cannot be afk. It’s 100% win it’s almost like I pour water onto a wood and you try to light a fire. So it’s not happening 

 

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3 hours ago, Neoneo said:

AFK

 

Umm afk is the term use for not doing anything, like sleeping or doing no work so please go ahead post a video I’d be willing to give you the 100 m but do remember also that if you loose you loose 100m. Power surge cannot be afk. It’s 100% win it’s almost like I pour water onto a wood and you try to light a fire. So it’s not happening 

 

Why so much technicality with AFK term? Its pretty obvious than is impossible to do power surge without doing anything during the battle phase because the defenses all disappear..Is pretty much a related term rather than specific.

Is more easy to refer the situation with players that already have a good bulk of stuffs in this game (probably him) like minimal necessary effort..You need to do the bare min to win, no change of strategy/rebuild or excessive hero work aside from the mechanic of incursion that could provide by itself..

Afk is generally a hyperbole as you need to sometimes interfere even by a little or atleast look if there is a boss to not be caught off guard..

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Wait, why can't return of maldonis be afk-able? Pretty sure the first time I finished that map I did literally nothing during combat phase.

I don't think power surge can be afk-ed though, since all defenses besides trees disappear. I'd be genuinely impressed to see someone manage to do it.

Also, the lack of motes and clusters in prime incursions really ruin it for me. Why would I ever play those maps more than once after I get the 2nd hyper shard from each group? A chance at a c8 weapon or ampoule, which the market is already oversaturated with?

Edited by gigazelle

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On 10/13/2019 at 6:01 AM, gigazelle said:

Wait, why can't return of maldonis be afk-able? Pretty sure the first time I finished that map I did literally nothing during combat phase.

Same here. I did nothing on combat phase too. Once I got crucial lanes upgraded when needed, it's all smooth. In fact, some lanes I leave totally un-upgraded. No idea why return of maldonis is *not* afk-able.

Edited by Paloverde zfogshooterz
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