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Fatheredpuma81

Controller Emulation/Split-screen rewards

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Posted (edited)

Let's sum up my opinions on Split Screen rewards: I hate it. But we need it.

 

Not sure what to type here. I have lots of mixed feelings about Controller Emulation. 

1. I dislike losing 75% of my FPS to split screen for extra items.

2. I dislike plugging in 3 controllers or finding an emulator to get extra items.

3. I dislike getting extra items for having extra players I am not playing.

4. I like getting extra items for having friends splitscreen with me.

5. I like how it speeds up getting a specific items.

6. I dislike how it's required to get a good items.

 

So what could be done? A logarithmic slider that ramps up difficulty and ramps up rewards. Essentially meaning if you're strong enough and farming a specific item you can set the amount of drops(/players) to 12x for a 40x (random example number) difficulty increase.

 

But i'd like to know the communities thoughts on this as a whole. They said they'd be adding tons of QoL improvements so I thought i'd bring this up as it's a pretty big part of the game.

Edited by Fatheredpuma81
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Posted (edited)

Yeah, the increase in rewards from emulating splitscreen is kinda mandatory in DD to get enough rewards for running maps to be worth it, but I think that's at least partially due to *everyone* doing it. The market is overflowing with high quality items as a result of splitscreen giving the players with high stats four times as many items.

Another issue it's posing is that it makes actually playing with people a bad thing because you'd be getting less rewards.

Just from a basic game design point of view, it's really terrible that you need to download a set of third party files in order to play the game efficiently. The controls for emulators are super unintuitive as well, because of course they are when they have to make the controls for four players fit on a single keyboard.

Overall I sincerely hope that splitscreen rewards won't be a returning feature. I'd be fine with the difficulty thing you suggested, just please, I want to actually play with people and introduce the game to my friends without needing to go "...Yeah so first you're gonna have to download these random files off the internet, if you don't want to gimp yourself"

Edited by Crombell
fixed hyperbole
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My main problem with such features is that it openly discourages playing with others in regards to loot farming because you'll suddenly be getting less loot due to the fact you've now got to share it. I would prefer a method of loot scaling that encourages actually playing with other people as opposed to multiple controllers on the same account. Especially since DDA's loot will be instanced, and you don't have to worry about whoever happens to be closest to the drop site ganking that one great item.

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2 hours ago, Thorgonator said:

Especially since DDA's loot will be instanced

I dont believe they have said how loot will work yet. I would like reference for this part.

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7 hours ago, Exglint said:

I dont believe they have said how loot will work yet. I would like reference for this part.

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I believe this was mentioned in one of their update posts during the kickstarter.

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8 hours ago, Thorgonator said:

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I believe this was mentioned in one of their update posts during the kickstarter.

Yes it will be instanced they mentioned that when they were first talking about the QoL improvements. 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, mordyo88 said:

Yes it will be instanced they mentioned that when they were first talking about the QoL improvements. 

An update on the kickstarter or on a stream? I just searched the KS updates and they never said it.

Edited by Exglint

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They have mentioned on stream that loot will be instanced. If memory serves it was one of their first streams talking about DDA where they also promised that it wont be "inventory management the game".

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To go back to the topic at hand split screen and loot . Do we punish genuine split screen players in order to catch those looking to cheese the system? On console at least it is easier since there it is possible to log into multiple accounts on the same device and for DD2 2 players can use this to play split screen together. It would seem quite fair to implement only one reward per account there at least. The problem is what about PC players it is almost impossible to have multiple accounts running on steam at any one time even more so if you are looking to be online with them. Unless you think every player will have their own computer what will happen is most will share one account and split screen there. My son and I did this for the original game since we have different strengths he might dps while I built or repair while I took down the boss etc. He had his own heroes and I had mine. It felt to me at least fair that we got our own loot. That being said loading in extra screens just for loot using emulators or whatever is cheesing the system. I am not sure if it would be possible to prevent the use of an emulator to help reduce those looking to cheese loot drops. If there is a way to allow multiple accounts to play together on PC then fine restrict it to one account one reward else I cant see how its fair to those genuinely using split screen.

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I hope DDA takes a fresh approach. 

in DD1, i tired of always waiting for a 4th to play any map for max benefit, or having to play on half my screen size so i can cheat the bonus.

In DD2...what multiplayer? Seriously. I have better chances at seeing and ice cream stand in the Sahara than getting 4 players on your average DD2 map. Played almost the whole game alone...sad. 

I'm all for better drops, but unless someone's butt is literally next to me, than i never want to see split screen again. But, i would like to play DDA with others. Cheers on finding a hybrid that will appease all!

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Posted (edited)
Quote

I would prefer a method of loot scaling that encourages actually playing with other people as opposed to multiple controllers on the same account.

@Thorgonator I don't want to feel like I'm being inefficient playing alone and feel forced to play with other people though.
 

Quote

On console at least it is easier since there it is possible to log into multiple accounts on the same device and for DD2 2 players can use this to play split screen together. It would seem quite fair to implement only one reward per account there at least.

@dizzydiana I don't get what you're saying. You say on consoles it's easy to use multiple different accounts so there it would be fair to limit rewards to one per account. You can still easily log-in on 4 different accounts if you have enough controllers, like I do and would still get 4x1 rewards no?


I recently went back to DD1 and started over to have a fresh experience. But now I knew about split-screen for better rewards unlike when I used to play back then. I'm not gonna talk about leveling too much since they said XP will be shared in DDA but I was trying to level my characters to 74 on my own and boy is it faster if you split-screen your other characters.

I ran a survival map to try and get a pet. Got a pretty crappy one and decided to try and split-screen multiple characters for the first time. Grabbed a ps4 controller and an xbox360 one and played the map for the first time and proceeded to get 3 pets. Immediately after I felt like I had just wasted an hour soloing that same map. Now I just feel like I'm wasting so much time soloing stuff compared to split-screening. I thought "they really have to prevent that in DDA from being so much better than everything else". After giving it a few thoughts, I came up with absolutely nothing that wouldn't heavily penalize the legit split-screen players.

I really wanted to try and find a good solution but I figured I'd need to think about it for a while. I'm not sure it's worth it, I don't feel like the devs are taking anything we suggest in consideration. I really don't want to feel forced to use my 4 controllers on ps4 to split-screen or feel like I'm wasting my time if I'm not though.

Edited by Windex
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Posted (edited)

Ah ok I should elaborate, what I was trying to say that for console you could make it that regardless of how many screens you are running it might be fair to limit end game rewards to one per account. I base this soley on the fact that it is possible for multiple accounts to be logged in and playing together on the same console. Although many players may not be aware there was some restrictions made for loot on console for DD1. If you were running a challenge in split screen with one account you only got one reward however if you had 2 accounts logged in each account would get the reward. For some reason this was only for challenges and not general loot it shows that similar restrictions are at least possible for DDA. For PC I am not sure it is as fair as I dont know if there is any simple way to allow multiple accounts to be logged in one the same computer and play together. If there is a simple fix to allow genuine split screen players to be distinguished from others I would see no problem in limiting end game rewards to one per account for PC. I really dont want it different for console players than PC as what currently happens with DD2 where only console players have the option to be able to split screen at all. I would like some overall policy to be maintained regardless of the platform you play on. What I dont want to happen - lets say my son and I want to play together through the campaign if we play on PC we have to run through each map  twice because we can only get one reward at a time. If we decided to use console we could log into different accounts and each get our own rewards  for running each map once thereby halving the amount we need to grind.

Edited by dizzydiana
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On 8/18/2019 at 4:59 AM, Fatheredpuma81 said:

Let's sum up my opinions on Split Screen rewards: I hate it. But we need it.

 

Not sure what to type here. I have lots of mixed feelings about Controller Emulation. 

1. I dislike losing 75% of my FPS to split screen for extra items.

2. I dislike plugging in 3 controllers or finding an emulator to get extra items.

3. I dislike getting extra items for having extra players I am not playing.

4. I like getting extra items for having friends splitscreen with me.

5. I like how it speeds up getting a specific items.

6. I dislike how it's required to get a good items.

 

So what could be done? A logarithmic slider that ramps up difficulty and ramps up rewards. Essentially meaning if you're strong enough and farming a specific item you can set the amount of drops(/players) to 12x for a 40x (random example number) difficulty increase.

 

But i'd like to know the communities thoughts on this as a whole. They said they'd be adding tons of QoL improvements so I thought i'd bring this up as it's a pretty big part of the game.

It's very difficult to do multiplayer scaling. There's the idea that more heads are better than one, so one would naturally expect things to be easier with mroe players, but more players also need more loot, and it doesn't completely make sense to give more loot when the game gets easier. At the same time, if there's no benefit to doing multiplayer, most people won't do it outside of couch coop fun. This is a tricky beast.

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Posted (edited)

I am not sure how to balance out multi player i a way thats fair. Multiplayer in Dungeon defenders doesnt really give all 4 players a defined role and it is relatively easy for one or more players not to do anything and still complete the map. The main issue I find is not so much multiplayer but Public matches. In both DD1 and DD2 trying to find a match at my current level of play outside of easier difficulties was an impossible task. The main problem for a game like this is there isnt any real reward to going back and helping others out from a loot perspective. People get less willing to help random people when they dont see any benefit from it. This leads to less public matches and discourages new players fro sticking with the game.A typical new player  when they do manage to get into a public match tends to find one of 2 things - 1 there is one fully geared player insisting they do all the building and you follow everything they say or 2 nobody seems to have a clue what to do and you dont even get past the first wave. Once you get to around mid game you just stop seeing public matches or they are so rare they may as well not exist. I think this happens due to how frustrating the experience was for people as a new player to get a decent public match. Even when you do see  public matches others expect you to be already fully geared, know the map and only there for the reward. I am not sure how or if it is possible to make public matches a place people actually want to engage in.

Edited by dizzydiana
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Alhanalem said:

At the same time, if there's no benefit to doing multiplayer, most people won't do it outside of couch coop fun.

I don't think that's necessarily true. If multiplayer is as rewarding as solo, I still think most people will like to play multiplayer. But if multiplayer is annoying and frustrating to play, people will avoid it. There was no reason for me to play DD1 multiplayer except to get carried in harder maps since you would get all the drops if you played solo. I would have loved to keep playing multiplayer but the downside was too big. Playing with people is more fun and more practical since you don't have to do all the repairing and upgrading by yourself if you were to be building all by yourself. I intend to play most of DDA in multiplayer if it's not actually penalizing.

One other thing I've experienced playing DD1 is that it was always up in the air on who joined your game. The only restriction you could apply as to who could join your games was their level. (I just launched DD1 to double check that was an actual thing and I just realized that setting a minimum level to join in your tavern, actually hides your game to anyone logged on a character below that.) Although having a high level character doesn't mean they're well geared. So I was always scared that people not strong enough or don't know what they're doing would join. But they've already announced we would have an option to start a wave over on defeat along another feature which I think has a good chance to be save-able defense presets. So losing will actually be a lot less penalizing. The only problem I still see is that personally, I always felt like I needed the perfect defense setup in order to beat a hard map. I'd like to feel different about that when playing hard maps in DDA as I see that being the main reason I would avoid playing multiplayer aside from solo being more rewarding. With split-screen as it will most likely be, I can't see that not being the case.

Edited by Windex
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6 minutes ago, Windex said:

I don't think that's necessarily true. If multiplayer is as rewarding as solo, I still think most people will like to play multiplayer. But if multiplayer is annoying and frustrating to play, people will avoid it. There was no reason for me to play DD1 multiplayer except to get carried in harder maps since you would get all the drops if you played solo. I would have loved to keep playing multiplayer but the downside was too big. Playing with people is more fun and more practical since you don't have to do all the repairing and upgrading by yourself if you were to be building all by yourself. I intend to play most of DDA in multiplayer if it's not actually penalizing.

This is more or less my stance as well. I enjoy multiplayer as opposed from solo as i want to engage with others. I like to get together with others in games i enjoy I hate solo play. This is why I try to separate Private matches from Public ones. If you are in something like a Discord server, facebook group or whatever it is pretty easy to jump on and say "Hey i'm looking to play this map at this level who wants to join in?". These matches more often than not are actually pleasant experiences unlike than the minefield of Public matches. So most players are either solo or using such tactics to get a multiplayer experience. If we want a better multiplayer game we have to focus on Public matchmaking and how best to encourage players to use it instead of private matchmaking. How can we make it a place we are willing to go to?

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Posted (edited)

You guys respond too fast :D I think of new stuff to add but sometimes I can't even add it before people have responded xD.

Quote

A typical new player  when they do manage to get into a public match tends to find one of 2 things - 1 there is one fully geared player insisting they do all the building and you follow everything they say or 2 nobody seems to have a clue what to do and you dont even get past the first wave.

That's so true. :P

Quote

Even when you do see  public matches others expect you to be already fully geared, know the map and only there for the reward. I am not sure how or if it is possible to make public matches a place people actually want to engage in.

I feel the same way. Even making multiplayer even more rewarding wouldn't be a good solution if it's not enjoyable to play. Then you feel forced to play multiplayer which you don't enjoy and have the feeling you're wasting your time if you play solo.

Edited by Windex
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Posted (edited)

I was thinking about how hard it is in DD1 (I won't refer to DD2 since I almost only played solo for the average amount of time I played it) to have players successfully build a map together and thought of a couple ideas that could be interesting to explore. Although, this wouldn't be a solution to the split-screen reward problem and would only be realistically do-able in tailor made maps.(DLCs?)
 

I'm just gonna pitch in two ideas.

Idea one :
A map divided in four separate parts. At first I was thinking of a map like a mine with 4 layers but it would probably be a better idea to have it be more or less flat and have all players be able to see what everyone else is doing if they want. Each part should either be identical or very similar in spawns/difficulty. At the start of the map the DUs would be divided equally among the players. Each player would spawn in their own part. I was thinking every single part would be isolated from each other and everyone would have to handle their own section. Or maybe they should be connected in some way so people can go help others if they need. But I was thinking there would be some kind of portals/jumps to travel to the other parts when missing players to handle the parts with no one in them. So if there were 2 players in the game, both players would be able to go back and forth between their 2 respective parts. With 3 players, 1 player would have 2/4 the DUs and half the map to take care of. Yes a player that joins halfway through wouldn't have DUs to build but did players who joined 2 waves late really ever get to build? Maybe there could be a pregame to let time for people to join where everyone has to ready up to spawn in their lane and have the DUs split. Or the host could just set the map in their tavern and wait for the amount of people they want to play with.

This wouldn't guarantee that you beat the map but it would be much easier for everyone to know what they have to do and this would incite all players to build. Also keep in mind that they said we would be able to restart at the wave we just lost on. So failing is gonna be a lot less punishing. This would also fix the possible leaver issues since upon losing on a wave because someone left we would be able to retry that wave and probably have the game redistribute the DUs.

This would involve each players killing less enemies individually so a possible fix would be to let each players able to roam the entire map at the end to loot. Another option could be to have all the drops from other parts that's theirs, actually appear in a special spot in their own part of the map.
 

Idea two:
The map could be very similar in design to my first idea or it could even be the same map, as it would involve players dealing with their own sides again but it would pit each players against one another instead. The concept is pretty simple. Each players would try to outlast everyone else in a very fast paced and quickly ramping survival. Since everyone would individually have less ground to cover than a regular map there would be much less time, if any, to prepare at any given point. I think there should still be waves, to give you a bit of time to fix what needs to be fixed in between waves. But the waves would be more intense and much shorter than your average survival map. The difficulty would ramp up way quicker too. I was thinking on how the drops should work and just thought that it would be pretty funny if some kind of goblin appeared on your side at specific time intervals and dropped you items.(If you're still alive) I think having the number of goblins showing up to give you items depend on how many players are still alive would be a great way to incite players to play together. This could be made really hard to abuse with fake split-screen if every side required active play from the very first moment all the way to the end. The winner should be rewarded more to make the map even more thrilling. For those that don't like to build and prefer to play a damage hero, there could even be a boss rush version where you can't build and have to use a DPS hero and it could reward DPS based items.

-------------------------------

While writing this I was trying to come up with split-screen abuse possible solutions or ones that could apply only to my ideas and I came up with a new one.

When playing on the hardest difficulty only, have the split-screen players share the same loot instead of having each of their own instanced to only them. That way all split-screen players would still have access to items to loot. Or maybe increase the amount of items dropped by 50% per player. Quadruple the amount of map rewards while dividing the rolls by 1/4 so that you would have the same chance as before to get a strong item. In split-screen, divide the amount of rewards to give a player by the amount of players in split-screen. If 2 players, 2 each instead of 4 // if 3 players one would have to get 1 more than the others only 1 // if 4 players, 1 for each. The split-screen players could share with each other.

This is the "least penalizing" way I can see. Anyway, I highly doubt CG will put in any extra work on solely trying to fix the split-screen abuse issue as this isn't actually something that affects the regular player.

Though I really like how my second map idea could potentially prevent the abuse when playing such a map/mode.
 

Edited by Windex
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Im not so familiar with dd1 split-screeen, so Im kinda wondering how it works? Do the different accounts have separate inventories and characters? If so, and with the change over to instanced loot and shared xp, there would be an easy way to fix this, just dont allow trading and there would be no way to get more items/currency on your main acc. Alternatively there could be a limit as to what, and for how much, could be traded. If not I definetely see how this could be tricky to balance, unless of course by some chance we had separate stuff in dda.

 

I do however have some thoughts on how we could balance this. (And coincidentally fix a few of the public match struggles.);

Make a system to track certain activities for each acc like dps from both heroes and defenses, upgrades, repairs and/or perhaps some other ones, and set up certain thresholds for each. Then make it so that if the thresholds for maybe 2 or 3 of n number of activities or whatever are not completed by the end of each map, no special rewards, less (or no) gold/mana and xp, and potentially less (or no) of some other rewards.

[This would only come into effect when there is more than one player and only effects the person who did not meet the requirements, not everyone else.]

Coincidentall note: I think this would be quite an efficient method of preventing afk-ing in public matches. Aditionally, it would be a great way to force players to build on their own wich hopefully creates more interactivity and balanced parties in public matches since weaker players would not be able to meet the required thresholds and thus get less rewards. (Assuming we let dps from both heroes and defenses stay as an absolute measure.)

Note: Yes this could work for better or worse depending on the balance and yes it would be a demanding task, but it could in theory fix a lot of issues people have with the previous games.

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, hajum023 said:

Im not so familiar with dd1 split-screeen, so Im kinda wondering how it works? Do the different accounts have separate inventories and characters? If so, and with the change over to instanced loot and shared xp, there would be an easy way to fix this, just dont allow trading and there would be no way to get more items/currency on your main acc. Alternatively there could be a limit as to what, and for how much, could be traded. If not I definetely see how this could be tricky to balance, unless of course by some chance we had separate stuff in dda.

 

I do however have some thoughts on how we could balance this. (And coincidentally fix a few of the public match struggles.);

Make a system to track certain activities for each acc like dps from both heroes and defenses, upgrades, repairs and/or perhaps some other ones, and set up certain thresholds for each. Then make it so that if the thresholds for maybe 2 or 3 of n number of activities or whatever are not completed by the end of each map, no special rewards, less (or no) gold/mana and xp, and potentially less (or no) of some other rewards.

[This would only come into effect when there is more than one player and only effects the person who did not meet the requirements, not everyone else.]

Coincidentall note: I think this would be quite an efficient method of preventing afk-ing in public matches. Aditionally, it would be a great way to force players to build on their own wich hopefully creates more interactivity and balanced parties in public matches since weaker players would not be able to meet the required thresholds and thus get less rewards. (Assuming we let dps from both heroes and defenses stay as an absolute measure.)

Note: Yes this could work for better or worse depending on the balance and yes it would be a demanding task, but it could in theory fix a lot of issues people have with the previous games.

As you not as familiar with DD1 I'll try to point out some things that may help you refine your idea. In DD1 basically its all about the towers more than heroes. This is more so once you reached NM with lower resistances (In nightmare your resistance is nerfed your health increases your dps is lower but Pets are just well OP) and beefed up enemies once you left the safety of aura stacks and your not geared for resistances etc needed you could be one shot by a goblin xd. . Just to add to that if hardcore mode was in effect and you die your hero was out for the rest of that wave and would not respawn until the building phase of the next. Heroes were most useful for maps with boss fights. Bosses tended to focus on heroes more than the defences in general. Some bosses were impossible to hit with defenses because of where they are placed or the specific mechanics of them (think incursion bosses and it will give you a better idea.). The enemies in general made turtle builds and staying closer to your crystal more prefarable to building next to spawns. Spiders could spawn next to your crystal and with the reach of enemy projectiles you have to build like you do for hex throwers in DD2. DD1 versions of assassins - dark Elves were kinda more like a combo of DD2 assassins and zerkers they would focus on your hero and jump over defenses and would also attack the crystal. Some defenses which dont attack were allot more important in DD1 than in DD2 eg Strength Drain Aura, Entangle Aura, Gas Traps and the Arcane barrier (if you want to include DLCs then Buff beams and Reflect beams which are basically in every NM build).  These things make it difficult to go on raw data deciding if any particular hero deserves a reward.

Given that i do like how you are thinking and trying to find a solution that is fair, with a little more thought it might just work.

Edited by dizzydiana

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, hajum023 said:

Do the different accounts have separate inventories and characters?

They don't. You can use all your player 1 characters in split-screen. So all map rewards go directly into your player 1 inventory.
 

Quote

If so, and with the change over to instanced loot and shared xp, there would be an easy way to fix this, just dont allow trading and there would be no way to get more items/currency on your main acc. Alternatively there could be a limit as to what, and for how much, could be traded. If not I definetely see how this could be tricky to balance, unless of course by some chance we had separate stuff in dda.

The fact that you can literally drop items from your inventory directly on the ground for anyone to pick up for free makes this impossible. Also I think a bunch of players wouldn't like not being able to trade with one another. If they were to not let you trade or drop items on the ground, they would have to somehow prevent split-screen players from sharing the same inventory. I feel like the most obvious solution is to just have the split-screen players share the same drops while everyone else is instanced.
 

Quote

Make a system to track certain activities for each acc like dps from both heroes and defenses, upgrades, repairs and/or perhaps some other ones, and set up certain thresholds for each. Then make it so that if the thresholds for maybe 2 or 3 of n number of activities or whatever are not completed by the end of each map, no special rewards, less (or no) gold/mana and xp, and potentially less (or no) of some other rewards.

The problem is that split-screen is not only abused to get map rewards but to cause more enemies to spawn, thus increasing the amount of items dropped on the ground. But I think being able to double/triple/quadruple your map rewards is a much bigger issue so maybe just find a way to only restrict that aspect. The main problem with forcing people to engage in a minimum of actions is that in survival once you've built everything you needed, you can let everything play out. You could just split all the builds across your fake split-screen players. And what about multiplayer game where the host uses 2 characters by fake split-screening an extra one and does all the building and the other public players barely even get to attack stuff. I had considered some way to auto-kick split-screen players that don't engage in any action for a certain time but there's still the fact that in DD1, you can simply have your fake split-screen characters join right before the wave giving special rewards and get all of them.

I think an option we came up regarding hosts kicking players at the end to add their fake split-screen which involved requiring you to have the split-screen players joined by wave 1 could be part of a solution.

Edited by Windex

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