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gigazelle

Drakenfrost keep needs to lose the dragon.

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The frost dragon is a very interesting and unique mechanic. It requires players to stay attentive and to work together to keep all torches lit. It's a fantastic feature that breaks conventional map rules and introduces an additional challenge on top of what the map alone offers.

But guess what? There's a dedicated place for that - it's called incursions.

Having to deal with the frost dragon while pushing onslaught floors is not fun, not rewarding, and I can't work as a team because pushing onslaught floors is more often than not a solo thing.

I would like to see the frost dragon moved to its own incursion, allowing us play the map in chaos and onslaught without needing to worry about what is quite literally an incursion game mechanic. It has no place on standard maps, and is straight up unfair when you already get to deal with mutators in each lane.

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Posted (edited)

I'm still waiting for this map to be removed from onslaught. I've stopped playing for now.

Edited by CrusadeR@DD2
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Some people likes the dragon I like the dragon it’s fun, if you haven’t figured it out yet keep trying I play this solo it’s the way to go more players means more mobs and stronger mobs. If you have automation you have nothing to worry about draken frost

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as neoneo said, as soon as you have automation or tenacity its like another afk map. so go for it first and ignore the dragon latter.

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Agreed on removal. It's an annoying mechanic that only keeps you from playing the rest of the map apart from torch repairing. To do away with the frost issues, you must once again have very specific things in place to counter...which sadly once again removes more choice from the game. More hard counters... Drakken included for Burning Strikes. Why have free slots if we are forced to fill them with specific boosters? It's the illusion of choice. If the frost map and boss had a much more robust selection of ways to counter, then this could be a much more fun map IMO.

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4 hours ago, Jaws_420 said:

removes more choice from the game. More hard counters... Drakken included for Burning Strikes. Why have free slots if we are forced to fill them with specific boosters? It's the illusion of choice

This part caught my attention. Do you really feel like the game having you put in Burning Strikes to counter Drakenlord is limiting your options for shards in your weapon?

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Exglint said:

This part caught my attention. Do you really feel like the game having you put in Burning Strikes to counter Drakenlord is limiting your options for shards in your weapon?

An example would be on my ability Apprentice, there are certain core/fun shards that's needed for his abilities and they do fill up all of his weapons slots which makes no space for Burning Strikes. So if I hit DK or Drakenlord, that takes my apprentice out of the option even if I feel like playing him at the time.

Or if I load up burning strikes, I would have to miss out on some fun/core shards to mess around.

Edited by Paloverde zfogshooterz
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Remove the Dragon , then Torches are useless. this maps becomes the easiest map in the game .Back to 6 yr old play and more reason to wait for DDA 

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13 hours ago, Exglint said:

This part caught my attention. Do you really feel like the game having you put in Burning Strikes to counter Drakenlord is limiting your options for shards in your weapon?

Of course i do, which is why i made the comment. I never used that shard before the boss came along. By using it, the power and DPS of my fighting hero decreased. All i got out of it was weak fire DOT and Drakken insurance. I don't want BS in my build, but i feel that i have no choice. 

fire DOT is pretty underwhelming IMO as well. Of all the elementals you can inflict, i feel its the weakest. Seems to do little damage, does not seem to do 2X to frost units (correct me if that is wrong), usually cannot be applied without oil as well which was only recently given to most heroes as a chip, but no servo yet. And fire removes Oiled staus, which loses the slow effect and takes away the abity to damage units on CB lanes. 

Now if there was some way to swap out BS on the fly, so that it was only applied when Drak came out, i would totally acquiesce. And i don't want to have to build a Drak only hero.

If there was a reliable tower solution, I'd go with that, but Drak can come from any spawn point in almost every game mode, plus open map drops on his stage. That means having to reexamine the spawns and your layout every wave...which is more time than i am willing to constantly give one miniboss.

Sad thing is that we already have a frost miniboss whose mechanism is one that adds some uniqueness and not a soft/hard counter issue in defending against. Drak is like a Frost Ogre gone wild, an enemy that overrides pretty much every CC in the game, much to the frustrations of most new players against frost lanes. 

To each their own i guess. If you like BS, more power to you. I just feel its weak and forced on us. I'd love to hear arguments for it to see if i am missing any great properties about it. 

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Posted (edited)

I think I found an easy solution to all above :Emoji_GobHuntress::Emoji_GobHuntress::Emoji_GobHuntress::Emoji_GobHuntress::Emoji_GobHuntress: so smart :Emoji_GobHuntress::Emoji_GobHuntress::Emoji_GobHuntress:

What if, instead of needing to equip BS to light torches in keep, the mechanism becomes, "20% chance to un-freeze nearby defenses, by hitting the torches" :Emoji_GobHuntress: ikr 

As far as for Draken Lord, I don't mind it. Since we do have 4 heroes hot-swap available, I just put BS on a builder with any fast-fire weapon.

Edited by hailminion

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, hailminion said:

I think I found an easy solution to all above :Emoji_GobHuntress::Emoji_GobHuntress::Emoji_GobHuntress::Emoji_GobHuntress::Emoji_GobHuntress: so smart :Emoji_GobHuntress::Emoji_GobHuntress::Emoji_GobHuntress:

What if, instead of needing to equip BS to light torches in keep, the mechanism becomes, "20% chance to un-freeze nearby defenses, by hitting the torches" :Emoji_GobHuntress: ikr 

As far as for Draken Lord, I don't mind it. Since we do have 4 heroes hot-swap available, I just put BS on a builder with any fast-fire weapon. Good thing DL walks so slow xD, so never need to worry about having to kill them fast right at spawn, can deal with assassins first b4 switching to an un-geared hero. 

While it's a solution to the burning strikes problem, I'm afraid to say that it's not really a solution to the map mechanic itself.

I honestly don't mind the mechanic, it's a pretty neat idea. The problem me and others are having is that it's very out of place as most of us who played incursions in its glory days felt that the DK mechanics should belong that gamemode that is incursion which differs heavily from the regular Onslaught and standard Expedition playstyle.

As for Drakenlord, again I don't mind him to a certain degree too. But I still don't like him and Dreadbones being in expeditions as it blurs the line that is Onslaught being a mash-up mode.

I still think having an Onslaught balanced Betsy replacing DK would be the better solution as it can be similar to lost temple where we get to focus more on our defense instead of running around everywhere.

4 hours ago, uzar said:

Remove the Dragon , then Torches are useless. this maps becomes the easiest map in the game .Back to 6 yr old play and more reason to wait for DDA 

I could argue too that without spectral knights, altar assassins, and demon lord - the Sword of Unholy fire shrines, The dark altar, and the Lava balls are useless too. And I don't see any complaints on those too.

Edited by Paloverde zfogshooterz
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Well put Palo. Great post.

Agreed about Incursion. If this map was there, no issue. And Betsy would make waaaaay more sense to me as well. 

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On 6/28/2019 at 3:05 AM, gigazelle said:

The frost dragon is a very interesting and unique mechanic. It requires players to stay attentive and to work together to keep all torches lit. It's a fantastic feature that breaks conventional map rules and introduces an additional challenge on top of what the map alone offers.

But guess what? There's a dedicated place for that - it's called incursions.

Having to deal with the frost dragon while pushing onslaught floors is not fun, not rewarding, and I can't work as a team because pushing onslaught floors is more often than not a solo thing.

I would like to see the frost dragon moved to its own incursion, allowing us play the map in chaos and onslaught without needing to worry about what is quite literally an incursion game mechanic. It has no place on standard maps, and is straight up unfair when you already get to deal with mutators in each lane.

I think i saw this type of topic on this forum like three times..In different time lines.

I personally see some problems with this maps with the fact that affect up to three braziers and is insta freeze on towers making a need to watch always..Pile this with some situtations that make you unable to interfere in time and you are screwed..If at least was a big rate reduction regardless of tenacity would feel fine..In the end even with all that LT is worse as you with lag have 0 control over the outcome of things.

The problem of this map goes around the game itself..The balance of def,grindness, the reset aspect makes you play in the same way and something that is taked as challenge by the game is just a repetition..You cant call something challenge after beat a lot of times..Wht left is the annoyance that is provoked.

If the game had a good ballance, less grindness, no reset feature to get ap powers but just climb floors to get those and others boosts, and different bonus/cons each map (like a mutator for your defenses) they could port almost every incursion that have a unique feature and place in onslaught with some tweeks(ex:spectral assault,demons lair) and a map like drakenfrost because of the big amount of map rotation would feel fresh in like 1 every 120 floors or so.

 

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32 minutes ago, Paloverde zfogshooterz said:

it can be similar to lost temple where we get to focus more on our defense instead of running around everywhere.

Loved ur post until... com'on man...  :huntress_small:

I have to not only focus on running around everywhere on Lost Temple; I also have to focus on unreliable mob paths glitching thru defenses, running around everywhere; while I'm lagging everywhere; and even when I focus on running, I still can't get there cuz map too big to cross and too many walls to go around lol 

I honestly think my patience and running skills for Keep come from Temple.... no glitched mobs, no 30-s parkour with Assassin sniper, no 20s-gap between lanes, no stuck rollers/ogre; instead I get 5s run, 1s light torch, 3s-gap between lanes, 1 potential stuck boss lane instead of 5. 

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, hailminion said:

Loved ur post until... com'on man...  :huntress_small:

I have to not only focus on running around everywhere on Lost Temple; I also have to focus on unreliable mob paths glitching thru defenses, running around everywhere; while I'm lagging everywhere; and even when I focus on running, I still can't get there cuz map too big to cross and too many walls to go around lol 

I honestly think my patience and running skills for Keep come from Temple.... no glitched mobs, no 30-s parkour with Assassin sniper, no 20s-gap between lanes, no stuck rollers/ogre; instead I get 5s run, 1s light torch, 3s-gap between lanes, 1 potential stuck boss lane instead of 5. 

Of course, peeps have tasted different experience regarding both map so they have different opinion on it. But...the running around aspect has stuck on me for DK far more than temple ever did. That's how it was for me.

And also to me it's similar to playing Power Surge and Spectral Assault which is also running around and doing things with your hero.

Edited by Paloverde zfogshooterz
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People actually play incursions?. Petrify combo no need for BS shard. 

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I have no idea what HD build would not use Burning Strikes since its best in slot for one of those but skipping past that I saw a much better suggestion. "What about Betsy, she would be better for Onslaught." Honestly I love this, mainly because I dont think people really remember her since Campaign is more one and done than Incursions are.

Betsy has a few things about her, the first is she can flap her wings and make all enemies faster. This is like Dreadbones but every enemy on the map and at higher hp levels this is problematic because enemies would run through defenses faster. Her map has 5 ground lanes, 2 of these have short straight areas and are very curvy. Starting you have 2 air lanes with 2 that open up, thats a lot of chances for DA or bad mutators on air (They also get sped up by Betsy).

The big thing is her curses, this is what I bet people remember the least. Jumping into campaign to just check them out and get actual numbers, the Betsy curse area is permanent, covers a big area and reduces Defense Power by 75%. If she places that over your setup then you're boned, move the whole thing. If you cant get a better location then reroll is your only option to change the lane that couldn't have defenses moved. Cursi-kaze reduces defense power by 50%, reduces range by 25%, and reduces speed by about as much as a single frost orc (not that much). The best part, Tenacity at 100% protects from Cursi-Kaze, it does nothing to protect you from the Betsy Curse.

This sounds much less fun than a freeze I do have an option to get rid of by just shooting a torch or using Tenacity at 100% and a boss who is just a miniboss (there is a chip/servo for him), can be stunned, and wont just fly off at a moments notice to go hit the cores. I'd say if anything Betsy would be more problematic than DFK by far.

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I'd rather have Inspiring Strikes, Overwhelm, and/or Life Leach, not to mention a bevy of hero specific ones. Heck, I'd even prefer Drenching Strikes over BS, as you setup CC from it. I play as GW mostly, and her ability restoration shards are also very powerful. Don't see how BS is best in slot. If no Drakken, id remove all of them today. 

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On 7/10/2019 at 7:45 AM, uzar said:

Remove the Dragon , then Torches are useless. this maps becomes the easiest map in the game .Back to 6 yr old play and more reason to wait for DDA 

It is by far from the easiest map in the game. Yes, torches are useless, and that's exactly the way I'd prefer it. Drakenfrost keep should be nothing but another map in the rotation, similar to other DD1 remake maps.

  • Forest Biome, the Mistymire remake, is in onslaught rotation. Do we deal with the blood moon or Eye of Cthulhu? Nope - just the regular map.
  • Molten Citadel, the Magus Quarters remake, is in onslaught rotation. Do we deal with the giant lava demon? Nope - just the regular map.
  • Crumbled Bulwark, the Ramparts remake, is in onslaught rotation. Do we deal with slow invincible assassins? Nope - just the regular map.
  • Plunderer Paradise, the Endless Spires remake, is in onslaught rotation. Do we deal with Dreadbones constantly teleporting in on the map? Nope - just the regular map.
  • Unholy Catacombs, the Foundries and Forges remake, is in onslaught rotation. Do we play color matching spirits to swords? Nope - just the regular map.
  • Buried Bastille, the Glitterhelm Caverns remake, is in onslaught rotation. Do we have to blaze through the map to complete it in time? Nope - just the regular map.
  • Drakenfrost Keep, the Royal Gardens remake, is in onslaught rotation, every 10 maps without fail. Do we have to deal with the frost dragon constantly freezing our defenses and running around lighting torches? YES, AND WHY?!

Speaking to your point of being boring, I actually wouldn't mind incursions tossed into the onslaught mix. Having to fight Betsy, or the Harbinger, or chrome enemies without any other mutators, or any other incursion mechanic... that actually sounds like a ton of fun and a way to spice maps up. Something like this:

  • Every XX9 map would be a random incursion from a given chaos tier. For example, wave 9 would be a random c1 incursion, wave 19 would be a random c2 incursion, etc. After c7, we would have a boss fight (Betsy, Harbinger, etc).
  • As much as I dislike Lost Temple, it does has its place in onslaught. I feel like it serves as the gatekeeper to the next 10 onslaught floors. Given its random nature, I wouldn't mind Lost Temple mutators reduced to 1 per lane instead of 2 per lane. That seems like a good trade-off, given all the other crap Lost Temple throws at you. I also wouldn't even mind spreading out Lost Temple to every 15 or even 20 maps to make room for incursions.
  • If we do have incursions in onslaught, lane mutators would need to be disabled entirely on those maps, as incursions already provide their own unique mechanic and challenge. Since the frost dragon is explicitly an incursion mechanic, this would make the frost dragon much more tolerable. Who knows, maybe this would even venture into 'actually enjoyable' territory.
  • Drakenfrost keep would be tossed into random maps, WITHOUT THE FROST DRAGON. Just let me occasionally play the Royal Gardens remake map in peace.

I don't hate the frost dragon - it is fun when played in the right context. Fighting the frost dragon in onslaught with lane mutators every 10 waves is about the worst and most un-fun context I can possibly imagine. If onslaught was revisited to include other incursions, and incursions didn't include lane mutators, I could see the frost dragon being so much more fun to fight against. Plus, we wouldn't be doing it literally every 10 floors.

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Sorry that sounds even more boring, or rather just like Chaos tiers. Hope Endgame games brings some challenge while i watch my kids Ap for me. 

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On 7/12/2019 at 4:01 PM, gigazelle said:

Speaking to your point of being boring, I actually wouldn't mind incursions tossed into the onslaught mix. Having to fight Betsy, or the Harbinger, or chrome enemies without any other mutators, or any other incursion mechanic... that actually sounds like a ton of fun and a way to spice maps up. Something like this:

  • Every XX9 map would be a random incursion from a given chaos tier. For example, wave 9 would be a random c1 incursion, wave 19 would be a random c2 incursion, etc. After c7, we would have a boss fight (Betsy, Harbinger, etc).
  • As much as I dislike Lost Temple, it does has its place in onslaught. I feel like it serves as the gatekeeper to the next 10 onslaught floors. Given its random nature, I wouldn't mind Lost Temple mutators reduced to 1 per lane instead of 2 per lane. That seems like a good trade-off, given all the other crap Lost Temple throws at you. I also wouldn't even mind spreading out Lost Temple to every 15 or even 20 maps to make room for incursions.
  • If we do have incursions in onslaught, lane mutators would need to be disabled entirely on those maps, as incursions already provide their own unique mechanic and challenge. Since the frost dragon is explicitly an incursion mechanic, this would make the frost dragon much more tolerable. Who knows, maybe this would even venture into 'actually enjoyable' territory.
  • Drakenfrost keep would be tossed into random maps, WITHOUT THE FROST DRAGON. Just let me occasionally play the Royal Gardens remake map in peace.

I don't hate the frost dragon - it is fun when played in the right context. Fighting the frost dragon in onslaught with lane mutators every 10 waves is about the worst and most un-fun context I can possibly imagine. If onslaught was revisited to include other incursions, and incursions didn't include lane mutators, I could see the frost dragon being so much more fun to fight against. Plus, we wouldn't be doing it literally every 10 floors.

Incursions would mean more variety of maps for retain the repetivity of things..those two maps are boss fight but in campaign..Would make zero sense to not port if so with all enemies avaliable and could become unbearable very easilly or too simple if there is gimmick or check point..Chrome enemies i believe that take 50% dmg and would be a nightmare at some point..Without mutators would be a empty thing.

Every 5 with the 20 being Lt would be ok..Ch6 incursions and the griblock is quite simple and if is not locked people would just skip to those..As you mentioned random from the pool of chaos tiers would still have cherry pick but would be fine in general.

Lt is the worse map and you play like draken keep in x10 but other features like build every wave in new lane, mob path problem, lag, boss wave which become a shore rather than a challenge after some time and the flyers (which is mainly due to weak anti flyers option,the speed of them and the push)

Disable mutators doesnt make sense to onslaught..Is the essence of the game mode and is the small thing that make you not complete enter in auto pilot..I think than there is other ways to equally make harder as those two maps or just a breaking point by just playing..Increase du limit and mana gain from wave could be a option..Either way some incursions like both ch5 will need a revamp..If you want a option of no mutator is just the developers introduce a scale from enemies to a assigned floor for the incursions which i approve..Play in floor 250,600,900 or so would at min be a good lab test.

I agree in make as a normal map too but if appears as incursion would appear the torch thing, frost dragon as always.

Fun is hard to use on a context or as argument..The true imo is than most people seems to be sick of this map because this add a layer of rng, repeatability and there is a limit than wht you can do with your hero at given time..There is more pros in comparison to Lt in play this map like fast build phases, no siege roller lanes and the 6th wave is just kill one boss.

 

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I love it when my defences are frozen, I also love it when an assassins stabs me to death while I watch the enemy run past my defences and start whacking my crystal :( 

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