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Will Summoner Be a Class in DD:A and DD:III

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Hey everyone! I've been a big fan of dungeon defenders for years and back when it was released I played it very thoroughly and when summoner was released I was overjoyed with the playstyle it added to the game. When I heard it wasn't going to be released in DD:II in a similar fashion to the original I found little reason to play the game. All that said I was wondering how or if summoner would be introduced to DD:A and DD:III with mobile units like in D;D:1 before I go further with this series?

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DD:A — Not on release. No guarantee, but definitely not with release.

DDIII — That is too far down the road, as we haven't even started work on that project. One at a time.

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I loved the Summoner. It is all about that unique playstyle that really changed things up and added more life to the game. So I would love to put my vote in for bringing them back in the game, as an update or DLC.

In fact, I am all for any unique playstyles that you can come up with. It was always part of the charm. You had characters with a bit of FPS, Hack and slash, Towers, Traps, RTS, RNG focus... then there are the pets that had different focuses and unique weapons like the portal gun mixing things up.

Each class felt unique, but you blew it out of the water with the Summoner. If you can come up with anyone else that changes the way you play, I am all for it.

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I would also like to put my vote in for the summoner. I felt the Abyss Lord was a bit lackluster in comparison to the summoner. Whether or not the minions have a separate resource or not doesnt make much difference to me personally, I liked being able to summon and control "enemy" units especially ogres xd. With what Mark said it seems stats will be similar to DD1 so I dont see a reason why the summoner or another hero similar couldnt be implemented. I am also interested what other familiar heroes will be included in the future. If we get the EV which version there are some differences between EV and EV2. With the additional backing from pre-order store will we get this "rift walker" hero or is that still up in the air?

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I would also like to express my interest in the summoner as a playable character in DD:A.

I played the Abyss Lord in DD2 but, as expressed by dizzydiana , it missed some of the more interesting mechanics the Summoner had to offer. The summoner brings a lot to the table and I would love to see him come back. The same goes for all the DLC characters from the original DD. I enjoyed EV, Barbarian and the Jester. They offer real alternatives and change up the whole game.

I'm with LemonyNebula: As long as you come up with something amazing, I'm all for it, but simply bringing back beloved characters is always a possibility. And I really loved that summoner XD

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TFW thinking about if the original heroes were instead Barb, Jester, Summoner and they added Huntress, Squire, Apprentice and Monk as DLC heroes and people would say the same thing about them being game changing etc. Since you know, they would also change how you could play the game.

I'm also down for new heroes with the small requirement of absolute balance. No more DD1 summoner required kind of thing or this is the only defense(s) you can use to play endgame. I'd much rather have less heroes and have everything viable than more heroes and only some things are viable. Makes no sense to have 50 heroes if only 3 are useful. 

Edited by Exglint
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7 hours ago, Exglint said:

TFW thinking about if the original heroes were instead Barb, Jester, Summoner and they added Huntress, Squire, Apprentice and Monk as DLC heroes and people would say the same thing about them being game changing etc. Since you know, they would also change how you could play the game. 

I'm also down for new heroes with the small requirement of absolute balance. No more DD1 summoner required kind of thing or this is the only defense(s) you can use to play endgame. I'd much rather have less heroes and have everything viable than more heroes and only some things are viable. Makes no sense to have 50 heroes if only 3 are useful.  

Well the original four are your standard tower defence fare. Each one has static 'towers' and basic attacks at heart.

The DLC characters are more experimental to the genre itself.

The summoner brought RTS gameplay in the mix with direct control of the summons that can move, the Babarian was combat only with stances instead of towers (rare in a tower defence game), the jester brought in random elements adding a sort of gambling aspect in place of the usual tower tactics.

Series EV was the only DLC character (other than counterpart heroes) that I would consider closer to the original play style

Not saying there is anything wrong with the originals, I love them too. Just saying that there is a difference to the DLC ones beyond just coming after the first.

I never experienced balance issues either, but I never hero swapped and generally only played with friends. I would rather rid hero swapping as I like the risk reward of sticking with one hero instead of being able to do everything. I honestly never felt one character was much stronger than another.... okay slight lie, it does depend on the mode/challenge, but not so much normal play.

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1 hour ago, LemonyNebula said:

I honestly never felt one character was much stronger than another.... okay slight lie, it does depend on the mode/challenge, but not so much normal play.

First, which game have you played. Second, Summoner is a required buy in DD1 for endgame play. Third, Monk and Barb are very obviously outperforming all other heroes in DD2.

In conclusion, derp wut?

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28 minutes ago, Exglint said:

First, which game have you played. Second, Summoner is a required buy in DD1 for endgame play. Third, Monk and Barb are very obviously outperforming all other heroes in DD2.

In conclusion, derp wut? 

I only play DD1

In my play I never 'needed' Summoner. What makes you need them?

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6 minutes ago, LemonyNebula said:

In my play I never 'needed' Summoner. What makes you need them?

So you played him but never realized that he has his own unit pool that allows you to build all the defenses you want then place all the minions you want as well, effectively doubling your DU pool?

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you dont need summoner in builds per se, but for survivals it does make things allot easier with the auto heal walls and double du (not doubled in DDE). The summoner being tower only (well ok u could equip 2 dps pets but not ideal) brought about something unique. The real time strategy achievements were pretty fun (only minions damaging mobs), you could cheese them with using buff beams, entangle auras, strength drain auras and gas traps though. The summoner could be implemented using the same resource of DU like DDE we wont know until if and when it comes into DDA. I like the premise of tower only heroes in DD2 we have 2 dps only but no tower only sigh, I hope we will get some hero who uses towers only whether its the summoner or not.

Edited by dizzydiana
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18 minutes ago, Exglint said:

So you played him but never realized that he has his own unit pool that allows you to build all the defenses you want then place all the minions you want as well, effectively doubling your DU pool?

I am well aware yes, but I never swapped heroes, so if I chose him, I never had turrets. Also most late game stuff I did solo tbh. As I said, 'I' never experience balance issues.

But I usually play for fun and mostly with just my friends and don't even bother with ranked so it never really concerned me. Neither does simply making him share the same pool as everyone else if they chose to. I'm just not as hung up on it.

He was my favourite character because it was a unique way to play. If they can bring him back, it would be great.

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30 minutes ago, LemonyNebula said:

making him share the same pool as everyone else if they chose to.

That would be called balancing, regardless if you choose to use all available resources or not, allowing it to have its own pool is imbalanced because you can double down on defenses. If the enemies are scaled with that in mind then summoner is required, if they are not then summoner makes the game twice as easy and therefore required in almost everyone's eyes.

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:Facepalm: you said you didnt see any balance issue and there most definitely is a huge balance issues. Why not just agree in the first place

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11 minutes ago, Exglint said:

:Facepalm: you said you didnt see any balance issue and there most definitely is a huge balance issues. Why not just agree in the first place

I said I never experienced it because " I never hero swapped and generally only played with friends."

I made no comment on them balancing new characters. As I said, I don't really care either way as it doesn't affect my playstyle.

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it seems a slight arguement over semantics where summoner is concerned. Having separate DU did make summoner  "must have" like jester e with the OP kill % of enemies etc. You could also save DU with a builder Jester with presents even though I didnt see this utilised much. the same can be said for some DLC heroes on DD2, where we could argue that without them content is many times more difficult. If they keep the focus on the main 4 and keep DLC heroes unique but not over-powered I dont really care too much. I also dont want to be forced into buying a dlc hero to unlock difficulties etc. Balancing is important but this relies also on what enemies they have eg spiders, sharkens, cyborks etc if defenses are useless against a certain type then one hero will always end up being "required" to buy.

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I would still be happy with whatever balancing they do or don't do, I just want the summoner back as he was fun to play.

I was just stating that I liked the character due to the unique playstyle, not due to him being overpowered or any other balance aspects as I never really experienced it anyway as it never got to the point it affected me due to how I play.

The fact I mentioned removing hero swapping (I never did it anyway) should say I am not against balancing and I even mentioned that I was aware that in certain modes/challenges, a character may be outright better.

But in the end all I want are those, or more, unique characters like them, as they really added to the game.

I play for fun, and Dungeon Defenders was some of the best fun I have had from a game.

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A quick note on the Summoner being "OP"

Summoner is not really a "must have" class in DD1 anymore now that Apprentice has been buffed. It's nice to have minion walls for the extra security on lower stats, but there are builds for endgame maps like Tinkerer's Lab and Embermount Volcano that simply do not have minions period, and they make the maps move significantl;y faster. Around 2012-2015, when most people stopped playing DD1, Summoner was one of the "holy trinity" of Monk + Summoner + Series EV that most people remember being necessary for endgame maps. The clear times for Akatiti Jungle and Tinkerer's Lab at this point in time was anywhere from 23-28 minutes. Nowadays both of those maps do not use summoner at all and take anywhere from 12-15 minutes to finish.

tl;dr having its own DU pool does not make summoner a "must have" in DD1, as you can now make builds that are better than summoner builds.

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The only maps you wouldn't use minions on are maps you already can beat easily though, and the builds you make for those maps are with the intent of farming them as quickly and efficiently as possible

The summoner being required on all maps where you're having difficulty, where you can only beat them by also using a summoner, makes the summoner eligible for the title of "must-have" if you ask me

Edited by Crombell
typo
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Not "needing" and having a considerable advantage are 2 different things. As I said you dont need summoner, many builds without him work pretty well, for running maps. However once you want to do NMMMHC survivals esp on end game maps try a build without him and its an entirely different story. Its not impossible but your just giving yourself a headache for no reason. This to me is what makes him a "must have" hero.

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In which case you will also need a Monk, Series EV, and Apprentice. I don't see why we are cherrypicking summoner as some abnormally strong tower class.

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Mainly because it's DLC and because summoner can improve any build as a result of having seperate MU units

I wouldn't say Series EV is any better that Summoner when it comes to being a must-have

Edited by Crombell
grammar
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1 hour ago, Crombell said:

Mainly because it's DLC and because summoner can improve any build as a result of having seperate MU units

I wouldn't say Series EV is any better that Summoner when it comes to being a must-have

 I would much rather pay to have the summoner however unbalanced, than not have them at all.

I don't play to be the most effective player, I play for fun. I usually limit myself if I find something is overpowered.

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