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Balance changes: Less massacre, more defense

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Why have an entire category of walls, that are all now worthless. As updates changed metas and power creep kept coming, walls should have been redesigned to stay up to pace, but instead were left behind as cc metas took over. Since i began playing DD2, walls have been one of the most disappointing implementations in the game apart from pets. Enemies have constantly had issues going around, appearing behind, and now easily killing all of the walls. 

I really hope DDA has these better figured out in initial design, or remove them. 

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20 hours ago, Jaws_420 said:

Why have an entire category of walls, that are all now worthless. As updates changed metas and power creep kept coming, walls should have been redesigned to stay up to pace, but instead were left behind as cc metas took over. Since i began playing DD2, walls have been one of the most disappointing implementations in the game apart from pets. Enemies have constantly had issues going around, appearing behind, and now easily killing all of the walls. 

I really hope DDA has these better figured out in initial design, or remove them. 

Indeed. The power of the enemies have become quite strong that pure blockade strat is just not viable. It's to the point where damages couldn't be afforded to defense or it's game over that CC is quite integral to keeping enemies at bay and it's way better that walls as they get shattered in mere moments.

I'm seeing even if the enemies get scaled down in damage, the sheer force in high onslaught would still call for CC strategies.

Now that I think of it, perhaps it's better to have a new gamemode with new enemies and mechanics where blockades would be more viable?

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2 minutes ago, Paloverde zfogshooterz said:

Indeed. The power of the enemies have become quite strong that pure blockade strat is just not viable. It's to the point where damages couldn't be afforded to defense or it's game over that CC is quite integral to keeping enemies at bay and it's way better that walls as they get shattered in mere moments.

I'm seeing even if the enemies get scaled down in damage, the sheer force in high onslaught would still call for CC strategies.

Now that I think of it, perhaps it's better to have a new gamemode with new enemies and mechanics where blockades would be more viable?

Considering how many wall defenses are in the game, it seems to me that TE wanted them as an integral part of the game. Heck, we have air lanes on almost every map and only 2 AA defs! I really wish walls evolved along the way. They need to be wider (looking at you Dyad Tree), have better aggro programming on enemies, and health needs scaled up by a factor of 10 at least IMO. Also, they need a way to protect against ranged units so that one Hex Thrower cannot take down a wall on its own. I also think they either should do zero damage, so that you can focus on def stats, or the ap points need to be divided so that you don't have to choose between def and off stats and can do both simultaneously. 

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2 hours ago, Jaws_420 said:

Considering how many wall defenses are in the game, it seems to me that TE wanted them as an integral part of the game. Heck, we have air lanes on almost every map and only 2 AA defs! I really wish walls evolved along the way. They need to be wider (looking at you Dyad Tree), have better aggro programming on enemies, and health needs scaled up by a factor of 10 at least IMO. Also, they need a way to protect against ranged units so that one Hex Thrower cannot take down a wall on its own. I also think they either should do zero damage, so that you can focus on def stats, or the ap points need to be divided so that you don't have to choose between def and off stats and can do both simultaneously. 

I played this game untill floor 273 without resets or ch8 amps and to my experience in specific situations the orc blockade with the hyper shard automation was better as decoy than wm to stall..I would assume than a max blockade would have maybe 2-3x of my and would be viable for much longer but the problem is how is the nature of this game with increase in dmg/hp and grind to up things and cheer amount of anti wall mutator than they put on onslaught..wall leach,vampiric,abominable,phase and some others in certain situations.

The anti air problem seems more urgent than this, with flyers all over the place and people resorting to use auras instead of the proper defense(maybe natural bonus dmg against flyers for them)

 

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Power creep is not a wholly bad thing. If there was no power creep, and everything stayed the same difficulty level no matter how much you leveled, that would be a completely boring game. It is a game, not reality, and people need catering to their egos to appreciate the game. 

Although several of you have talked for a nerf quite eloquently I find it strange to turn a whole game upside-down just because of some wish to use the blockades. I don't understand why that would make the game any more interesting, and it seems like an extreme intervention for the sake of blockades. I'd rather they fix buff-beams, but that would probably only add fuel to your fire when it comes to power creep issues :)

I have not reset yet, and im currently beyond floor 100. I'm going to continue as far as I can before resetting. My FA do 600k dps tier 1, and I do nowhere near 2b dps on my hero (albeit it is a barb and not a monk). The game is providing me with an adequate challenge every wave, and I often have to retry. I find that enjoyable because it makes it a learning experience. I use blockades as a niche tool, and I'm glad it is there in my tool kit. I don't want it to be more prominent. 

Grinding materials in c7 and lower is of course a complete AFK-fest, but that is not the place I keep looking for challenges. It's like the beginner area (or end of it), and  the rewards are not great enough to justify making that content harder.

I suspect I will hit a wall in onslaught based on my stats and capabilities in not too long, and if resetting didn't make things easier for me down the line, why on earth would I do a reset in the first place? Ancient Power Reset is a wanted power creep put into a system. 

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The thing, with better HP scaling on health stat from walls, is that, no matter what we do, at some point they will get one shotted and will be excluded. and if we scale/balance walls around those high floors, walls will become way too OP at lower floors, and one would easily hold too long. 

I think it's prolly ezier for CG to scale down all mobs damage output down to c7 or mayb f100 level, where walls with current stat can hold shortly, and keep em there throughout all floors. Although that will likely post another problem where hero will never die regardless of difficulty level bcuz of low damage received. (mayb only scale down on walls?) 

This is a hard question that require a lota thinking & rework on CG's side. 

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Just now, hailminion said:

The thing, with better HP scaling on health stat from walls, is that, no matter what we do, at some point they will get one shotted and will be excluded. and if we scale/balance walls around those high floors, walls will become way too OP at lower floors, and one would easily hold too long. 

I think it's prolly ezier for CG to scale down all mobs damage output down to c7 or mayb f100 level, where walls with current stat can hold shortly, and keep em there throughout all floors. Although that will likely post another problem where hero will never die regardless of difficulty level bcuz of low damage received. (mayb only scale down on walls?) 

This is a hard question that require a lota thinking & rework on CG's side. 

Indeed, the problem will always persist one way or another as they can't be balanced for both sides.

Best to leave it alone and create another gamemode with new mechanics that does need walls as it's strategy.

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1 hour ago, Paloverde zfogshooterz said:

Indeed, the problem will always persist one way or another as they can't be balanced for both sides.

Best to leave it alone and create another gamemode with new mechanics that does need walls as it's strategy.

The problem is how much time is considered intended to resist a block in x floor against y mobs with the amount of def health of the blockade..

They could had implemented a natural armor stat for all blockade which would reduce by 50% the dmg for ex and scale for all blockades considering the du(colossus would have more than a tree for ex), anti mods to increase resistance to certain mobs, diversity mods to boost def hp and the armor.Tbh all the mods that was introduced for blockades are lackluster after mobs become too strong on hits.

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22 minutes ago, Paloverde zfogshooterz said:

Hey! I'm actually liking this idea! It seems pretty neat!

stop stealing muh ideas! (source: previously linked post from Nov '18).

j/k it's a fairly trivial idea to come up with and I love that you like it too! Ah, if only TE/CG had moar resources :/

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20 hours ago, DanielMenezes2 said:

I played this game untill floor 273 without resets or ch8 amps and to my experience in specific situations the orc blockade with the hyper shard automation was better as decoy than wm to stall..I would assume than a max blockade would have maybe 2-3x of my and would be viable for much longer but the problem is how is the nature of this game with increase in dmg/hp and grind to up things and cheer amount of anti wall mutator than they put on onslaught..wall leach,vampiric,abominable,phase and some others in certain situations.

The anti air problem seems more urgent than this, with flyers all over the place and people resorting to use auras instead of the proper defense(maybe natural bonus dmg against flyers for them)

I agree we should have more anit-air towers. Can't find it rn, but I do remember either posting or just crafting a thread about changes I would make to defenses. One of the main changes was changing a few defenses like angry nimbus or volcano to be anti-air defenses. Skyguards and hailstorm tower should really get a buff too, I haven't used a single anti-air defense in any serious build for a very long time now, kinda sucks with the monk, but he has other good tools, the worst is honestly adept that only has that one defense that makes her special. I don't even have an adept in my deck at all right now as I dont dps on her. 

 

6 hours ago, krsans78 said:

Power creep is not a wholly bad thing. If there was no power creep, and everything stayed the same difficulty level no matter how much you leveled, that would be a completely boring game. It is a game, not reality, and people need catering to their egos to appreciate the game. 

Although several of you have talked for a nerf quite eloquently I find it strange to turn a whole game upside-down just because of some wish to use the blockades. I don't understand why that would make the game any more interesting, and it seems like an extreme intervention for the sake of blockades. I'd rather they fix buff-beams, but that would probably only add fuel to your fire when it comes to power creep issues :)

I have not reset yet, and im currently beyond floor 100. I'm going to continue as far as I can before resetting. My FA do 600k dps tier 1, and I do nowhere near 2b dps on my hero (albeit it is a barb and not a monk). The game is providing me with an adequate challenge every wave, and I often have to retry. I find that enjoyable because it makes it a learning experience. I use blockades as a niche tool, and I'm glad it is there in my tool kit. I don't want it to be more prominent. 

Grinding materials in c7 and lower is of course a complete AFK-fest, but that is not the place I keep looking for challenges. It's like the beginner area (or end of it), and  the rewards are not great enough to justify making that content harder.

I suspect I will hit a wall in onslaught based on my stats and capabilities in not too long, and if resetting didn't make things easier for me down the line, why on earth would I do a reset in the first place? Ancient Power Reset is a wanted power creep put into a system. 

I dont think anyone is suggesting stopping people from progressing and getting upgrades. The intent is just to scale down a few numbers so that we dont hit numbers that the game can't handle and also change the playstyle a bit as, for me, the current playstyle of cc + dps has becomed a bit stale compared to what it used to be in previous iterations.

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well man i am not sure what you mean, you can still use barricades today in expeditions and lower onslaught. Nobody blocks you and even game allows it.

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6 hours ago, yrooks said:

well man i am not sure what you mean, you can still use barricades today in expeditions and lower onslaught. Nobody blocks you and even game allows it.

The thread was discussing the effectiveness of walls and why players choose not to use them, not any kind of actual prevention from using them. You can build walls anywhere the game allows, but spawn camping your defenes is typically much more effective in DD2. 

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On 5/10/2019 at 10:43 AM, hailminion said:

Topic has come up many times. 

Challenging content is there. There's 0 people at 990+, 5 people at 900+. They are absolutely not afking, and struggle to climb even a few floors over a long period of weeks even months. 

Don't get why people keep playing tutorial content and ask for nerf or call the game no strat afk.

Frankly, this almost feels like watching a college student do 1+1 all the time and call math worthless, asking for nerf to IQ so everyone can think 2+2 is hard. ( I honestly don't mean to be offensive lol, this is genuinely how I'm feeling rn...)

Spot on man 

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6 hours ago, gcstephen13 said:

Spot on man 

Except his post missed the entire point of the thread, like shooting a barn in broad daylight and missing. Do players in challenging areas use walls? No, which is what the thread is about, finding a way to make walls more part of the defense and not a complete waste of DU. This would also subsequently open up more of that hp limit that Chromatic cant use to make more content challenging for those who snoozed up the floors to 900 (and believe me it wasnt challenging at all for them until they hit that hp wall) so they would find what they want and still win rather than beat on the hp wall without ever having a chance.

Things that are not an answer to this problem are: Sleeping through 500+ hours of content to get anything challenging, using walls in lower floors even though they are completely useless and will only take one hit, creating a new game. None of these solve the problem, they just ignore it. Does anyone want to be labeled as ignorant for ignoring a problem?

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