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hajum023

Balance changes: Less massacre, more defense

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Posted (edited)

I miss using walls. I miss actually fortifying a lane for the onslaught of enemies that didnt die instantly to my dps defenses. I suggest:

 

1. Reduce ALL dps aspects of all defenses and heroes by like 50-75% (edit: more like 90%) (also super nerf mods/shards/abilities like frostfire remnants, turn the tides/barb heal and monk boost)

2. Remove the damage scaling of enemies in onslaught

3. Adjust number of waves, number of mobs, the reward system, reset floors, etc. to balance the time investments as this will most likely lead to longer waves (maybe make each wave a bit more rewarding instead of just mostly the final one)

4. Adjust some bosses like the yeti and drakenlord shatter combo so that your walls doesnt get instantly rekt

5. Make it so that blokades stops cleave/explosion damage. Does not include for instance pierce, emp and aoe from bosses, only cleave/explosion from regular enemies so that towers like flame throwers can be viable in these sorts of builds as a somewhat general setup

(Edit: 6. Also change tenacity servo as suggested below, so that traps, auras and nodes can be utilized on all lanes if built for it.

)


I am probably just a bit nostalgic towards my early experiences with the game during nm4 (not pdt meta) and then again when trials first came, but I am quite sure that lower dps , actually chunky bosses and menacing enemies building up on the walls would make this game a lot more engaging and challenging, compared to a "I only need to kill bosses, otherwise its an afk-snoozefest" type of game

 

Yours truly

Hajum

Edited by hajum023
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well man i am not sure what you mean, you can still use barricades today in expeditions and lower onslaught. Nobody blocks you and even game allows it.

It is not meta - but you can do it.

I used blockades happily until floor 50 basic c7 - no issues.

Also in DD2 do not expect any big changes anymore - all effort goes now to DDA.

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Barricades are still used in many builds. If. You're OP for the level you're playing, of course you won't need barricades or much towers and it'll be an afk fest. Just play content your level?

You can't expect them to completely rebalance the game at this point. It's easier for them to start over and make a new game.

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Man really?

"I only need to kill bosses, otherwise its an afk-snoozefest" type of game

Tell me what floor you are with your afk snoozefest?:)

Also try this challenge and tell me how snoozefest it is:)

 

 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Ryzours said:

Barricades are still used in many builds. If. You're OP for the level you're playing, of course you won't need barricades or much towers and it'll be an afk fest. Just play content your level?

You can't expect them to completely rebalance the game at this point. It's easier for them to start over and make a new game.

Really, walls are being used in many builds?  (just a bit suprised here) I have seen slight usage of the electric fingers orc blockades and ofc Juice doing some onslaught floor with spike blokades pretty recently. However I have yet to see anyone using blockades as one of their main defenses. I am also familiar with using them as decoys for enemies like throwers. I just find the number of ways I have seen them usedto be a little too niche to really say they are common for endgame players. Of course I am always up for suprises. 

 

I could always push a couple of hundred floors to make it exciting, but the problem is that the way there is pretty unengaging. I pushed to floor 203 and watched netflix or yt on every single floor, then stopped cuz I got way to burnt out just sitting there, only moving when I saw bosses come out and occassionally just to check that everything was going smooth. 

There is also the problem that in order to get materials and xp, c7 expeditions, which is even less engagin, is kind of a must-farm mode. 

 

For the last part though. Of course, I completely understand that they are busy with DD:A, but when it comes to completely warping the game, it has been done multiple times before. I believe they said that they will keep working on DD2 even after DD:A is out and I am quite sure that "only" doing this, would be way more influential and time-efficient than producing new content, at least as far as providing a breath of fresh air goes.

 

9 hours ago, atharix said:

well man i am not sure what you mean, you can still use barricades today in expeditions and lower onslaught. Nobody blocks you and even game allows it.

It is not meta - but you can do it.

I used blockades happily until floor 50 basic c7 - no issues.

Also in DD2 do not expect any big changes anymore - all effort goes now to DDA.

I dont want to do floor 50 and c7 expeditions to challenge myself. Presumably I am not the only player that is too proud to nerf myself like that. I want to be able to say I can beat the most challenging aspects of the game because of superior strategy, experience and pushing what can be achieved in the game, not that I was able to beat something that almost all experienced players could beat with their eyes closed because I wanted to try something random.

I said I think this would also make the game more engaging. That does not only apply to me. It applies to all players. I recently tried farming some c7 in public and well, I almost started feeling uncomfortable because no-one except the person building (me) was actually playing the game. They just sat there with their macro G buttons and moved occasionally just to clear their bags. The only reason they even bothered to log in and join on this lobby was so that they could free loot and xp while someone else built and then afked with them.

I dont know if I am just being stupid, but people playing together and at same time not really playing together seems pretty weird to me. As much as I think this would be fun for me, I also feel like it would be good for the community to be more engaged and actually play together. This is just my opinion though.

Cool challenge btw, seems interesting, if I get too burnt out one day and nothing changes, I think I might try it ( even though it goes against everything I just said xD ).

Edit: btw, flame throwers can be quite useful in certain situations. Obviously not without shards or anything, but did you know that you can reach the range cap with just a range mod leaving you with tons of options to customize them. They can be quite mean in high roller lanes.

Edited by hajum023
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Posted (edited)

A change like this would be the final nail in the coffin for me. Climbing higher in onslaught is enough of a challenge and I don't want to nerf more aspects of the game. Personally, I'd prefer if they incrementally gave us more power (e.g. Petrify /w taunt) than to make the game more 'challenging'. I had way more fun during the Petrify+Taunt shenanigans than a whole lot of time before.

Personally, I'm not looking for this game to be a 'job' or a test of my 'epeen'. I just want to unwind and progress through the gear treadmill.

Edited by malf
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3 hours ago, malf said:

A change like this would be the final nail in the coffin for me. Climbing higher in onslaught is enough of a challenge and I don't want to nerf more aspects of the game. Personally, I'd prefer if they incrementally gave us more power (e.g. Petrify /w taunt) than to make the game more 'challenging'. I had way more fun during the Petrify+Taunt shenanigans than a whole lot of time before.

Personally, I'm not looking for this game to be a 'job' or a test of my 'epeen'. I just want to unwind and progress through the gear treadmill.

Technically there are clicker/incremental games that already do this, also passively for most. Start game and your number goes up, the more time you play the higher your number. You can run the treadmill as long as you want and it never ends, then when you are done you just stop playing. DD2 is a Tower Defense, where you plan out a build based on what you have in stock and what enemies you will be facing and change it along the way to optimize. The goal of the enemy is to make it past those defenses and to keep that from happening you use blockades to hold them back a bit longer. Gear is only relevant up to c7 and then its forever climb in Onslaught, there is no treadmill, it is a staircase, which does end.

The unfortunate part so far is we have been given so much power in the recent times that blockades are useless and stacking more and more dps is the way of things. If they give us more power to balance out the lesser used things then do it again and again, its called power creep. In most games this is bad but in DD2 it is basically death because the game engine can only handle numbers up to a point. If the power we have gets over a certain limit then things breakdown and become irrelevant. For an example of this look at Incursions or Mastery, these are no longer relevant because of how much power we have given. Back when Mastery was released the best players in the game had struggles, now, anyone at c7 can complete them with the right defenses with fairly decent ease. Incursions are just played once, if that, to unlock weapons then forgotten. Onslaught on release it was hard for the best players in the game to get to floor 200, then Mods came and Marcos showed it was possible to max it out. CG then re-scaled Onslaught to what it is today and we again had/have players pushing far too deep showing that we still have vastly more power than we should.

There is a saying that I believe is very common, "What goes up, must come down". We are at the peak of power, the next logical move is down. The higher up we go the harder and faster we go down. 

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Goin down in power is a quick trip to a lost player base.

Shafting the mid-tier players because the the top few% can reach OP levels is yet another way of potentially alienating the player base.

I personally no longer have any affinity for building walls (even though I did at some point in the past). I'm completely fine with them being a niche utility, if that.

The entire Incursions game-mode is basically a joke from day-1. The only incursion that was mildly engaging was the c5 Bazaar map (where defenses despawn but can be placed instantly). It's replayability lay in it's completely unique playstyle coupled with the OP reward it gave back then (legendary gear and monk staff afair). THIS is the model that worked, imho. Boss Mode incursions could've played a similar role but were never realised. Instead we got these mildly tweaked maps which didn't require a massive change of playing the game to achieve success.

Mastery is brilliant. It was hard as %@$# back in the day, and through power creep has got successively more accessible to the wider player base. IMO, this is exactly how it should be.

// 2cents

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3 hours ago, malf said:

Goin down in power is a quick trip to a lost player base.

Shafting the mid-tier players because the the top few% can reach OP levels is yet another way of potentially alienating the player base.

I personally no longer have any affinity for building walls (even though I did at some point in the past). I'm completely fine with them being a niche utility, if that.

Just to get a bit of context, how do you define mid-tier players? I`m gonna assume something like players with none/few gilded shards and 10/10 mods, but for the most part has pretty good builds and defenses. I dont really see how these players would get "shafted" as I personally would find a build using blockades far more intuitive and easier to wrap my head around, when the build you are currently trying to copy (and many times, not fully grasping) will stop being effective.

I feel like new players especially would benefit from this, as now, endgame builds would look more like the way you are thaught to build during the campaign and just the way one would think made the most sence in general.

I think what is way more alienating is new player discovering that most of what they knew about strategy in this game was not even close to what the reality of how the best way to build is.

The only ones that would really get shafted would be the top players that have invested far too much time into their maxed relics and specific builds used to spawn camp enemies. Even so, I think these players would adapt after a couple of hrs into the new patch and I think that even their maxed relics would prove to be close to the perfect relics anyway, so its really just a matter of figuring out which defenses works well together and ofc finding a descent totem for your blockades (which most of us would have done in preparation).

To me, this would be like a breath of fresh air. There is nothing so fun to me as trying to come up with the most "OP" builds possible on patch day and the following days.

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So, completely change the game, alienate almost the entire player base... Just because you like to use walls more than others are using them?

Sounds reasonable. 

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10 hours ago, Rentard said:

So, completely change the game, alienate almost the entire player base... Just because you like to use walls more than others are using them?

Sounds reasonable. 

Are you trying to be funny or did you just not read my comments explaining how I dont think this would alienate the player base, but in fact bring it closer together by bringing top players closer to the strategies of newer players and imo a more intuitive way of thinking about the tower defense aspect.

Not trying to hang you out or anything, I would just be very happy for some sort of reasoning of your perspective rather than throwing out accusations like that.

Just a sidenote, but I would also like to stress the fact that this is an action tower defense game, lately I feel like the action part has been a bit lackluster - hence this post. It has nothing to do with me liking walls, just missing the action part as I can remember it from before.

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Posted (edited)

I too think about the sadness around losing walls from chaos 6 on-wards. But then I attribute that more towards walls themselves than looking to nerfing the hell out of everything else just to make a single defence viable. Afterall, there are a ton of defences that are underused or not used at all because they're just bad.

I'm only on floor 235 and find myself doing plenty of action to support my defences, not that anything but Barbarian or HD Monk do much, poor poor AP heroes :(

Edited by Little Magic Hat
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IDD; 'rebalancing' everything just to 'enable' one type of defense is without a doubt  a strange proposal, IMO.
Buff walls and leave existing defenses intact. If walls were buffed to be a completely viable primary strat for Hardened / Unstoppable / Boss lanes then I can get behind that change. Changing the entire current playstyle and setup of existing defenses to make walls viable everywhere seems ridiculous.

Whilst not optimal, walls are completely viable (read: effective) until floor 50ish - at least they were prior to their DU buffs and usage of dedicated wall mods. (source: I used them). They would most problably be viable now till even higher. Note: not efficient, just viable. Unless you're pushing floors, viability is all that counts for variety. Anything else is just an argument for catering to laziness.

Regarding the action part: I find myself needing to be intensenly active past floor 100 (note: no Ancient Power resets so far), and more so in the following scenarios:

  • Lost Temple / Drakenfrost
  • Multiplayer

Post a few gilded shards and semi-optimal modding, you may bump that up to post floor 160 instead.

I fully expect that the threshold to where I need to be more action-oriented will increase once I:

  • AP reset and unlock higher talent caps
  • AP reset multiple and activate defense Powers
  • optimize the mods on my relics more (RNG/resources permitting)

I may / may-not also not strictly adhere to 'pure' meta build strategies; as I care more about having fun via a combination of variety and build setups that I create myself. This can totally lead to making the game feel more action-oriented for me than you. YMMV.

TL;DR: $#@$#@ massive rebalances and/or power nerfs. I'd rather they buff than nerf.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Little Magic Hat said:

I too think about the sadness around losing walls from chaos 6 on-wards. But then I attribute that more towards walls themselves than looking to nerfing the hell out of everything else just to make a single defence viable. Afterall, there are a ton of defences that are underused or not used at all because they're just bad.

I was thinking the same thing for a long while, but then I started thinking of how I would buff blockades. I think that either way, one thing that has to happen is removing/severely nerfing the enemy damage scaling in onslaught if blockades are to be viable at any point in the game and not be too strong or too weak at any point because its not balanced around that point of progression.

At this point, I thought that was about all we needed, and honestly, if you only want blockades to be viable, this would be it, and I think that in itself would be a welcome change especially if you need something for omega waves.

It just turns out its not really about making walls viable, its about changing the playstyle from afk to engaged and that requires nerfing dps defenses. Thats why we need all the suggested changes to really make it happen.

Of course this is just what I want, I respect it if you like the current game and only want to see walls viable in the same way flame auras are.

1 hour ago, malf said:

IDD; 'rebalancing' everything just to 'enable' one type of defense is without a doubt  a strange proposal, IMO.
Buff walls and leave existing defenses intact. If walls were buffed to be a completely viable primary strat for Hardened / Unstoppable / Boss lanes then I can get behind that change. Changing the entire current playstyle and setup of existing defenses to make walls viable everywhere seems ridiculous.

Whilst not optimal, walls are completely viable (read: effective) until floor 50ish - at least they were prior to their DU buffs and usage of dedicated wall mods. (source: I used them). They would most problably be viable now till even higher. Note: not efficient, just viable. Unless you're pushing floors, viability is all that counts for variety. Anything else is just an argument for catering to laziness.

Same as the above: Its not about making walls viable its about changing the afk playstyle that too many players (inculding myself) has adopted. I just tried playing through campaign again where it felt very much like I imagine it will after such a balance change as suggested. It was a blast compared to anything else this game has to offer. Obviously we are all different so I think its good that you enjoy the game as is. I have just had a bit too many impulses compelling me to think that the community in general could benefit from these changes. So as you see, I am not specifically encouraging variety, I am encourging a more engaging playstyle for those of us that have grown a bit unengaged by all the ways to basically afk.

Edited by hajum023

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Topic has come up many times. 

Challenging content is there. There's 0 people at 990+, 5 people at 900+. They are absolutely not afking, and struggle to climb even a few floors over a long period of weeks even months. 

Don't get why people keep playing tutorial content and ask for nerf or call the game no strat afk.

Frankly, this almost feels like watching a college student do 1+1 all the time and call math worthless, asking for nerf to IQ so everyone can think 2+2 is hard. ( I honestly don't mean to be offensive lol, this is genuinely how I'm feeling rn...)

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3 minutes ago, hailminion said:

Topic has come up many times. 

Challenging content is there. There's 0 people at 990+, 5 people at 900+. They are absolutely not afking, and struggle to climb even a few floors over a long period of weeks even months. 

Don't get why people keep playing tutorial content and ask for nerf or call the game no strat afk.

Frankly, this almost feels like watching a college student do 1+1 all the time and call math worthless, asking for nerf to IQ so everyone can think 2+2 is hard. ( I honestly don't mean to be offensive lol, this is genuinely how I'm feeling rn...)

Fair point. Its just that it takes too long before the challenge hits so that people (including me) gets burnt out way before we even get there. Its not like we choose to do 1+1 all the time bc we want to, but before we are allowed to do something more difficult, we just have to do it too many times. Its not a nerf to IQ, its a nerf to the how long it takes before something more challenging comes around.

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6 minutes ago, hajum023 said:

Its not like we choose to do 1+1 all the time bc we want to, but before we are allowed to do something more difficult, we just have to do it too many times. Its not a nerf to IQ, its a nerf to the how long it takes before something more challenging comes around.

I surely second that... for a long while players have requested an option to choose which floor we can directly go to if we solo (prevent carry). But I guess CG either just doesn't have the time or wants it to be the absurdly grinding we have now.... sadly

Guess too many things to consider for em too, such as how will that effect AP, will player quit faster due to reaching limit sooner, etc. If they can figure out a way to solve the problem, I think the majority of players will be very happy. 

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27 minutes ago, hajum023 said:

Fair point. Its just that it takes too long before the challenge hits so that people (including me) gets burnt out way before we even get there. Its not like we choose to do 1+1 all the time bc we want to, but before we are allowed to do something more difficult, we just have to do it too many times. Its not a nerf to IQ, its a nerf to the how long it takes before something more challenging comes around.

now we're getting to the real issue. I too agree wholeheartedly with this.

The journey to get to the point that is fun is itself not optimized for a large variety of the playerbase (IMO). It's also possibly a hard problem to solve.

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On 5/10/2019 at 2:18 AM, hajum023 said:

Are you trying to be funny or did you just not read my comments explaining how I dont think this would alienate the player base, but in fact bring it closer together by bringing top players closer to the strategies of newer players and imo a more intuitive way of thinking about the tower defense aspect.

Not trying to hang you out or anything, I would just be very happy for some sort of reasoning of your perspective rather than throwing out accusations like that.

Just a sidenote, but I would also like to stress the fact that this is an action tower defense game, lately I feel like the action part has been a bit lackluster - hence this post. It has nothing to do with me liking walls, just missing the action part as I can remember it from before.

Read the other posts. It's pretty much spelled out for you. 

Let me summarize - the changes you are suggesting will nullify the countless hours most people have put into the game grinding to get the right combination of gears, shards, mods, etc to fit the current meta. If your suggestions were implemented, we would need to spend hour and countless hours regearing. That is THE number one way to alienate your player base. 

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3 hours ago, Rentard said:

If your suggestions were implemented, we would need to spend hour and countless hours regearing. That is THE number one way to alienate your player base. 

What hours regearing? He suggested a dps reduction and removal of enemy scaling in Onslaught. That does nothing to setups except you build up a single blockade type defenses and keep going. You make it sound like he asked for specific defenses to be nerfed and not all defenses.

Now I may not agree with the numbers proposed I do think one of the biggest problems with DD2 atm has been the never ending increase of damage output, I haven't even reached my full ascension yet and my FA are literally 8-10 times stronger than they were before Protean Shift not counting anti mods or controller or any other mod that super boosts output by a percentage. We went from 400-450k dps FA to what is now possible 4m dps at tier 1 before percentage based mods are considered.

This is a problem called power creep and it needs to be addressed, which has only been made worse by the next problem, total control that never ending CC has given players. In my honest opinion, if players feel like their hard work is wasted when devs try to balance things out then they were the ones looking for the easy way out of any possible work or effort to beat the game. This game has never been easier to play, all it is now is a time sink. Whoever has the most time gets the furthest but it doesnt mean they are any better than the next person. Its honestly a very sad state of the game, right now its no better than Cookie Clicker, just click and you win.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Exglint said:

What hours regearing? He suggested a dps reduction and removal of enemy scaling in Onslaught. That does nothing to setups except you build up a single blockade type defenses and keep going. You make it sound like he asked for specific defenses to be nerfed and not all defenses.

Now I may not agree with the numbers proposed I do think one of the biggest problems with DD2 atm has been the never ending increase of damage output, I haven't even reached my full ascension yet and my FA are literally 8-10 times stronger than they were before Protean Shift not counting anti mods or controller or any other mod that super boosts output by a percentage. We went from 400-450k dps FA to what is now possible 4m dps at tier 1 before percentage based mods are considered.

This is a problem called power creep and it needs to be addressed, which has only been made worse by the next problem, total control that never ending CC has given players. In my honest opinion, if players feel like their hard work is wasted when devs try to balance things out then they were the ones looking for the easy way out of any possible work or effort to beat the game. This game has never been easier to play, all it is now is a time sink. Whoever has the most time gets the furthest but it doesnt mean they are any better than the next person. Its honestly a very sad state of the game, right now its no better than Cookie Clicker, just click and you win.

There's a fair bit of hyperbole here... Personally, I haven't reset yet, and above floor 200 i often have to retry every single wave. The challenge is there, if you want it. That said, it can be quite painful to get to that point of challenge (and mayhaps extremely so if you've already done certain things in the game).

Additionally, just because you CAN win with a simplistic setup, doesn't mean that's the only way to play the game. By virtue of making things easier, a lot more builds and variety of defense setups are 'viable' during the initial climb.

Caveat 1

Granted, once you start to hit the proverbial ceiling, you will more or less get pigeonholed into some sort of meta-build (revolving around heavy CC - but they're now opening this up further via different flavors of 'cc'). I'm glad that due to the power creep the game is not centered around catering to the top percent of onslaught climbers. I sincerely hope it never goes back to that.

Caveat 2

Just because a lot more variety is possible in the mid-game, it doesn't mean that the setup of the game or the mindset of all players will gravitate towards this. The way AP resets are structured (especially the first few), it forces players to try to focus on as few defenses as possible - the resource costs are otherwise quite prohibitive. Additionally, for those players that are lazy (and there's a fair few), it's easier to just adopt the meta that requires the least effort. Nevertheless, the fact that the choice exists in the mid-game, even if masses ignore the choice, is (IMO) a fantastic thing.

TL;DR: i disagree with wanting to make the game hard and reduce the power creep. I'd prefer more intelligent solutions for improving on gameplay variety, increasing the amount of content available, and making the challenging aspect of the game more accessible.

Edited by malf
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Had a thought. Change the functionality of walls to last X seconds under fire. That way, there is no scaling involved and they retain their individual unique abilities while being functional a walls 

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17 minutes ago, Little Magic Hat said:

Had a thought. Change the functionality of walls to last X seconds under fire. That way, there is no scaling involved and they retain their individual unique abilities while being functional a walls 

long time ago I already gave a random idea on how to achieve something similar: 

 :)

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1 hour ago, malf said:

I'd prefer more intelligent solutions for improving on gameplay variety, increasing the amount of content available, and making the challenging aspect of the game more accessible.

I agree with this but I see one small problem. Players have been able to kill 1-2 billion hp enemies, the integer limit of the game, where do you go from there? You cant make it any harder without introducing increased resistances to all dmg types. Which leaves the option of reducing both the enemy hp and our dmg opening up more of that integer limit to do the exact same thing with different wording.

As far as your caveat 2, I think players are jumping into climbing and resets far far too early and that creates the problem. I had no issue using as many as or whatever defenses I wanted. I didnt need to though because I was so powerful a FA in every lane was more than enough. Funny enough if you nerf dmg output so that a single defense cannot be used to do resets then players will be forced to use a couple to cover their bases. I was picking relics up off the ground and just tossing them into a defense for resets without even really looking at the mod on it, thats how easy resets are when you are prepared for them.

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4 hours ago, Exglint said:

Players have been able to kill 1-2 billion hp enemies, the integer limit of the game, where do you go from there? 

Incursions were a great game mode that they've abandoned for far too long. Public games were more fun and players were more engaged then.

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