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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Jaws_420 said:

That is an intensely bigoted and rude thing to say. I find that highly offensive. Help your fellow person instead of knocking them down. It's just a freaking game. No need to kick people in the teeth just because they can't do things as well as you. There is zero shame in seeking accommodations for one's disability, and the world would be better off if more people did so. 

id say stuff about me but this isnt about me, its about the quality of the game. i can sit here all day and say a LOT bout my problems and reasons why i cant play games as well but id rather have a conversation about the game, not my problems

and dont call me bigoted lol, just because im not going to spill my guts out and tell you my problems doesnt mean im a perfect individual that hates people below me. thats a bold assumption ya have there

Edited by Bonnabelle
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To be fair, Jaws isnt in discord so he missed all of that and has no reference point for what you are talking about. So it may have sounded rude or like an attack towards people with disabilities to him or others who dont know where it came from.

Also I didn't intend to make it about me, it was about adding accessibility options to encourage more gamers to come play the game and help grow the community. I also love heavy skill base challenge and do actively encourage them to put very difficult tasks into the game with great rewards. I do understand the need to have something that only a few can do. This can easily be achieved with additional game modes and endgame grinds, the base progression of difficulties already have more hp more dmg and more speed for each difficulty you go up. 

There was a difference discovered betwee the first two games that may be leading players to see different things.

In DD2 we have modes like Mastery, which heavily limit what defenses you can use and how many of them. Included was a 30 second timer for build phase and a 180 second timer for combat phase. These both were very strict and many were forced to deal with it to get the rewards because they were needed for further progression. (Which was hated because they were so strict).

The next game mode was Onslaught where each floor was 1 map and each lane was random enemies from anywhere in the game, including hard counter enemies, which alone made progression a bit harder. On top of this each lane had 1 to 2 mutators which gave enemies benefits or disadvantages. Of these mutators there were things like,

  • Cursi-kaze - Kobolds that die lay down a curse that lowers range and dmg to any tower nearby and stacked with each other if there were multiple
  • Controlled Burn - Enemies are invulnerable unless they are poisoned, oiled, chilled, stunned, drenched or frozen
  • Spellbreakers/Armored - enemies took half dmg from the respective dmg type and a small bonus for the opposite dmg type
  • Headstrong/Unstoppable - These two made enemies immune to stun (any form of stun) or slowing effects (or even being targeted by slow effects)

Just a sample of mutators but these add additional time to consider what to build and swapping heroes in and out to accommodate those builds. I have 17 defenses setup to handle Onslaught and most are just general use which will need to be made into more specific situation based builds eventually if I want to continue climbing beyond a point. One of the maps even benefits you for deleting everything you placed and rebuilding the entire map to replace your mass enemy killing defenses with boss killers. Which alone takes a long time because the map is huge.

tl;dr - I think in general the two communities have different viewpoints because we "Currently" have different games and combining them into one is going to be a headache for us and the devs as we all try to debate on mechanics that would affect the two different games in different ways and we still have little idea about how DDA will be played or what will be in it.

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I played a lot of both DD1 and 2, and I definitely wouldn't miss the build timer. Especially since there are likely to be at least a few issues with multiplayer connectivity, among other things. I do trust Chromatic games, as I wouldnt7have given to the kickstarter otherwise, but I'm not enough of a fool to assume that the game will be flawless upon release. I'd much rather a game mechanic with so much potential to be problematic simple not be implemented in the first place. 

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Posted (edited)

Also, now that I've seen some of the discussion about people "pushing their disabilities". No. You should be ashamed of yourself just for saying that. This is a gaming community. It is usually a very friendly community. But since when did the desires of the "hardcore fans" trump the need to make the game fun and accessible for everyone? Losing a relatively small feature, something even the people who WANT it in the game insist isn't a big deal, is a small price to pay. By your standards it would make the game a tiny bit easier, to which I respond, so what? The meat and bones of the game, which is the actual combat phase, would remain completely unaltered as a result. Don't make this into an "us vs. them" argument, there is absolutely no call for being so elitist. In the end, people who don't want a build timer are just asking for something to change, and will likely still play the game regardless. Why on earth would you want to alienate other players by accusing them of pushing their "disabilities" on the community when all they're doing is listing a preference that has nothing to do with a disability in the first place? Whatever is best for DD:A isn't even a known factor yet, they're going to be attempting to mash together the best features of both games, so we have yet to see how it'll function at all. Even my own previous post above is just idle speculation. So let's not start getting all elitist and dividing the community when we don't even know all there is to know about DDA. 

Edited by Thorgonator
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Build timers have never really been an issue. I find I often had plenty of time to know where my placements should be and don't have enough points to put many more towers that take up the time. Only multiplayer did it slow people down as communication takes up most of the time. Keep it or don't though, doesn't really bother me personally.

In fact, I never even considered them as a way to adjust difficulty, just a way to make sure public games start without someone time wasting in the build phase. Then again, I didn't hero swap or destroy and replace turrets much, so never had much to do in the build phase.

If it has to be included, an option to have one or not is good. Have it as a difficulty modifier like you would hardcore mode, and make difficulty affect it so you have all the time in the world earlier and less later. It shouldn't be something you miss out on not doing, but something to challenge those who find it makes it difficult. That way people can play their way and you really can please everyone.

When in doubt, make it optional.

As for people who have to have that challenge. Even if timers don't exist, just time yourself. Get a stopwatch, limit your options. You can make a game as hard as you want that way. It is better to make a game appeal to more and challenge yourself in it, than to remove the fun for those who struggle just so the game tells you to do what you can do yourself.

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I feel that this topic is becoming somewhat toxic and I hope that I have not played any part in that. i just have concerns with how the game plays on console/controller compared to keyboard and mouse. I understand this is a subjective point and others may not be experiencing the same issues as myself or may of found a better way to deal with the issues than I have. I have no issue if timers were optional and added better gear like what the hardcore option did in DD1. I dont want to bash on those players looking to challenge themselves or actually like build timers. I just prefer if this mechanic is not forced on everyone. In my opinion a game should not be built around the 5% of hardcore players constantly needing challenge or for the 5% of players who struggle to even plan their defenses. Adding in options to alter how difficult it is like hardcore and mixed mode felt right it allowed those looking for challenge in those ways to be suitably rewarded. I would like build timers to be the same if indeed present at all. I am happy to have my loot drops lower if I option out of build timers, just like if I am fighting a boss I opt out of hardcore mode until I feel confidant enough to try again with the option turned on. 

I cannot stand onslaught in DD2 so I can simply opt out of that mode and have fun elsewhere,, there is no requirement to get to floor 300 or whatever, it may mean I have less of the game to enjoy, but I am allowed to make the choice, I simply want DDA to offer choice to all players regardless if they are in the top 5% or bottom 5% or inbetween. I want it to be regardless of platform of choice that the game is just as fun/diffiicult and that not just geared to one specific platform. I dont see why that is causing so much negativity in this community.

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Posted (edited)

With playing both games around the same amount of time I can see where some changes improved the overall feel of the game and some made it feel worse. When DD2 changed from NMIV to Choas it vastly altered the gameplay experience with cyborks and the like being added. We were forced to play in a certain way or fail to some extent, many players resented this and eventually MODS were introduced which did allow players to play more how they wanted to. If iI want to play only on a ranged hero I was no longer punished for doing so by Geodes with the right MOD. If I wanted to stubbornly use Flame auras with cyborks again I could do so if I was bothered to farm for the MOD that allowed me to do so. I had CHOICE I was overjoyed that I could play the game in a way I wanted to if I was prepared to grind for the MODS I needed to. I could use the hero(s) and defenses I wanted to. Sure I had to spend time to farm for specific MODS that would allow this, but I was prepared to spend the extra time involved. I was "rewarded"for my grind. This to me was a positive move by the developers and I simply want them to not abandon that thought process. 

During my initial completion of maps in DD1 I woud run through maps without hardcore until I felt I was confidant that my hero could survive throughout the wave (especialy in boss fights) then go back and complete the map in hardcore. I would do the same with regular survival compared to mixed mode once i was confidant that my build would hold throughout survival I would go back and repeat it in mixed mode. I would like the same opportunity where timers are concerned. Let me try and hone my build in Nightmare without a timer first and go back and try it with a timer. Why is that such a difficult thing to ask for? I know it means I will have to play the map more often than those who have no issues with timers, but I am prepared to spend the extra time involved so where is the issue exactly?

Many people argue that having these options means its the only way to play, that playing a map without hardcore is pointless due to the lower loot. But i argue that it allows an extra step to get used to the map and difficulty for those of us who benefit from it. It does not stop us from playing in hardcore or force us to do so. It allows us to play at our own pace/ skill level and work up to the highest difficulty presented which is why its an OPTION and not an implemented mechanic. Since we are aware that these modifiers will give us better loot the aim is always to complete the map with these modifiers present. But we are never forced into playing with them always turned on from the very start. It was widely known and accepted that if you wished to get the best loot from survival you would run it with both mixed mode and hardcore turned on, but if all you wanted was the pet you could just run it without the modifiers. This to me was the best approach as it allowed players to choose and were rewarded for adding in difficulty

Give players a choice on if they want to make it more difficult by adding in options like hardcore, mixed mode or whatever. Dont make these things compulsory and force them on everyone. Make challenges have strict timers with great rewards where it feels worthwhile to do so. Challenge rewards always felt lackluster compared to regular farming and although off topic is another part of the game I have strong feelings about. Players should be rewarded for challenging themselves by specific gear or just general better loot. Risk should equal reward and giving better loot would be a fair and suitable compromise to those who still wish for the inclusion of timers.. Would it be possible for us to agree that this would be suitable and leave it at that and not continue to have this "us versus them" mentality.

Edited by dizzydiana
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Think an other reason for the divide : 

DD2 players are used to having 1 hero per defense they use 
Personally I have 4 monks that are all builders just for perfect ascension allocation (equivalent of xp) ( I use at least 10 heroes in a normal onslaught match ) 
That makes a lot of switching to do. Trying to place the perfect killbox while having to switch through the whole hero deck takes time. Add to that a timer and it's a nightmare.
It's doable. We have a 30 sec timer in mastery. I completed it no problem. But it's far from fun. I won't ever do it again. 

Now in DD1 ...
I see the argument in this thread that for a majority of maps you have enough time to build without being pressured.
If there is so much time - > timer serves no purpose whatsoever. (in multiplayer g up and you have a timer) 
(Imo) It could be useful in some map in form of a challenge or as an option to  ever so slightly increase loot quality.
 
We understand that you guys love DD1 since you are still playing it !
But DDa is supposed to be a new game , not just DD1 with new graphics.
Taking the core of DD1 and making it better with elements that worked well in DD2. 

Hero swaping, lane schedule , wisp , etc 
People don't want DDa to be a PARKOUR simulator to keep going to forge to swap hero (at least vast majority of players on the official DD discord) 
People usually like having information to work with as a basis of their build (lane schedule, pathing, etc ) 

DD2 has that pretty cool feature where you don't have to fail a map over and over to finally know the waves you need to prepare against. (or look at a guide online)
You can launch any map. Create a build on the spot. Have fun. 
Later on you analyse what worked well ...and what didn't work so well. 
Then you come up with the perfect build. 
If you fail a couple of times in the process. No problem . The ride was enjoyable.
Oh and IT IS possible to have  infinite build time and a combat phase being challenging and requiring strategy. 

In DD2 lanes are also evolving , you don't just spend your DU ....then call it a day with a few upgrades 
Exemple -> wave 3 of certain lanes will have frost orcs appearing (will need to change your build accordingly) 
                -> some lanes change every wave (specific one) 
Because of that timers don't work that well .... but it adds a strategic element to build phase that DD1 doesn't have at all.
I've seen the argument of added difficulty to build phase a lot .....can't we pursue strategic difficulty instead of parkour difficulty ?!

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, Zombiewookie said:


 We understand that you guys love DD1 since you are still playing it !
But DDa is supposed to be a new game , not just DD1 with new graphics.
Taking the core of DD1 and making it better with elements that worked well in DD2. 

Hero swaping, lane schedule , wisp , etc 
People don't want DDa to be a PARKOUR simulator to keep going to forge to swap hero (at least vast majority of players on the official DD discord) 
People usually like having information to work with as a basis of their build (lane schedule, pathing, etc ) 

DD2 has that pretty cool feature where you don't have to fail a map over and over to finally know the waves you need to prepare against. (or look at a guide online)
You can launch any map. Create a build on the spot. Have fun. 
Later on you analyse what worked well ...and what didn't work so well. 
Then you come up with the perfect build. 
If you fail a couple of times in the process. No problem . The ride was enjoyable.
Oh and IT IS possible to have  infinite build time and a combat phase being challenging and requiring strategy. 

In DD2 lanes are also evolving , you don't just spend your DU ....then call it a day with a few upgrades 
Exemple -> wave 3 of certain lanes will have frost orcs appearing (will need to change your build accordingly) 
                -> some lanes change every wave (specific one) 
Because of that timers don't work that well .... but it adds a strategic element to build phase that DD1 doesn't have at all.
I've seen the argument of added difficulty to build phase a lot .....can't we pursue strategic difficulty instead of parkour difficulty ?!

This to me says it all there are many other ways to add in difficulty spikes that the presence of a timer. Although build timers do add pressure to complete a build in time. I never saw them as adding actual strategic difficulty, they seemed nothing more than a speed check. How quickly can u run around the map etc. You were still restricted by having only enough mana to pick what you felt was the best to get you through each wave that where the strategy was for me. Once you knew what was best where how quickly you did that didnt make much difference in reality. This is why i feel they removed timers from survival (on PC only).

Let me just add this for some that may not of played DD2. Currently in DD2 if you join a multiplayer map and start the timer while someone is building you are not met with a thankful attitude in fact you are more than likely to be kicked just for starting the timer. You are met with anger and sometimes hostility and toxic language even if you starting the timer was accidental. Let that sink in for a minute. The strict timers in Mastery mode are so widely hated by the majority of the community that most will refuse to help others complete Mastery simply for that reason. Many players who have only played DD2 will have vastly different impression of any added value that timers may bring. As stated above DDA is NOT some HD remake of DD1 its a Different game with many elements drawn from DD1 and with QOL improvements from DD2. Please try to remember both communities and not turn this into one community versus the other.

Edited by dizzydiana
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i realise to some people bringing up Dd1 on console is a moot point, especially since they were basically abandoned within a YEAR of release, but I want to make sure this will not happen in DDA. Strength drain auras and darkness traps were NEVER adjusted on console. Other than including the 4 shard maps the consoles never got any real update after October 2011. Additionally Playstation players outwith NA never even got the fourth shard map. Even in Dd2 although content is kept as similar as possible between all 3 platforms Playstation and Xbox players still have crashes and bugs which have existed unfixed for months or longer. You can look at the DD2 forum section here for examples. Console players have always felt that they are an afterthought where developers are concerned. Possibly I should of took those concerns elsewhere as they are not entirely reliant on if there are build timers or not. I just felt it would help illustrate why with different platforms some mechanics are way worse for some of us.

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1 hour ago, Zombiewookie said:

If there is so much time - > timer serves no purpose whatsoever. (in multiplayer g up and you have a timer)

This is only the case after you have beaten the map, know the build, and have better gear that allows you to place less towers. When I first started running Winter Wonderland, I would finish the build with ~5 seconds left. Sometimes I would mess up the swap to Jester and have to restart. Nowadays all my characters have diamonds (40% movespeed bonus), I know the map inside and out, and builds have gotten a lot more streamlined, so I have a full minute left even if I goof up a buff beam somewhere. The effect of timers is only irrelevant after the map is below your gear level or too long.

 

1 hour ago, Zombiewookie said:

We understand that you guys love DD1 since you are still playing it !
But DDa is supposed to be a new game , not just DD1 with new graphics.
Taking the core of DD1 and making it better with elements that worked well in DD2.

1. DD:A's goal is to keep the soul of DD1. This is stated in the opening sentence of the kickstarter.

2. Build timers are essential to what makes the endgame difficulties unique

Therefore...

1 hour ago, Zombiewookie said:

Hero swaping, lane schedule , wisp , etc 
People don't want DDa to be a PARKOUR simulator to keep going to forge to swap hero (at least vast majority of players on the official DD discord) 
People usually like having information to work with as a basis of their build (lane schedule, pathing, etc )

Whether any of those are an improvement is subjective. I will die on the hill of telling you that build phase hotswapping dumbs down build phase significatly, but that's irrelevant now because we know for a fact that it will be in DD:A (same with this discussion now that we know timers will be in too).

People on the "official" DD discord are mostly DD2 players. Who haven't played DD1 since 2013 if at all. I don't give a shit about their opinions because most of them haven't played in 6 years and don't remember what the game was at that point.

Not sure what "lane schedule" is but I assume it has something to do with what mobs are going where and when, which DD1 does as well. (not very well, mind you)

1 hour ago, Zombiewookie said:

In DD2 lanes are also evolving , you don't just spend your DU ....then call it a day with a few upgrades 
Exemple -> wave 3 of certain lanes will have frost orcs appearing (will need to change your build accordingly) 
                -> some lanes change every wave (specific one) 
Because of that timers don't work that well .... but it adds a strategic element to build phase that DD1 doesn't have at all.
I've seen the argument of added difficulty to build phase a lot .....can't we pursue strategic difficulty instead of parkour difficulty ?!

In Temple of Love the entire enemy set changes each wave, and that map has the most restrictive build timers in the game. In Temple of Water which crystals can be damaged change from wave to wave and also affects your build in different waves. The Warping Core map pack and Portal Defense challenges entirely changes the location of the crystals every ~30 seconds or so. In Etherian Holiday Extravaganza and Silent Night you have a randomized crystal location every time you run then map. The "Mix Mode" option in survivals randomizes enemy spawns per door per wave. "Strategic difficulty" is not a phenomena unique to DD2.

Remember what I said about the people on the official discord talking about DD1? There is one map in the previous paragraph that wasn't in the game as of 2013, and apparently you remember none of it. I don't mean to be offensive but a lot of people who talk about what is good and bad parts of DD1/2 simply don't know much about the other game and it leads to situations like this where someone can be embarrassingly wrong about basic facts about the other game. (example: I know literally nothing about DD2 Mastery)

 

Take your "parkour" garbage elsewhere. It's not even bad bait at this point, it's genuinely dishonest crap that you're using to try to imply a higher difficulty than it actually is.

 

1 hour ago, dizzydiana said:

This to me says it all there are many other ways to add in difficulty spikes that the presence of a timer. Although build timers do add pressure to complete a build in time. I never saw them as adding actual strategic difficulty, they seemed nothing more than a speed check. How quickly can u run around the map etc.

But none of those affect build phase. You have really only 3 options: DU, mana, and time. Also as I said before, none of those ways of changing difficulty are exclusive to DD2.

 

1 hour ago, dizzydiana said:

TThe strict timers in Mastery mode are so widely hated by the majority of the community that most will refuse to help others complete Mastery simply for that reason. Many players who have only played DD2 will have vastly different impression of any added value that timers may bring.

The same thing happens in DD1 when you pre-emptively G in survival. This isn't new. I can imagine that this is more exaggerated in DD2 since increasing your movespeed and the ability to navigate the map is lacking if not entirely absent.

Like I mentioned above, I know less than nothing about Mastery. In that mode, do you still have the pre-buildphase downtime before you do the first G?

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Posted (edited)

In DD2 you have what I would call 3 phases one where you can survey the map and work out where lanes are, one you activate to start the buiding phase at which pint you are given enough mana to cover DU. Unnlike DD1 defense cost is completly tied to DU so where a spike barricade is 3 DU in DD1 its just 30 (mana cost) out of a total of say 1000 mana u can build with. this second phase is usually akin to that up to hard in DD1 with no timer. then finally the combat phase. You should of already have your full build done before even attempting the first wave unless in onslaught where maps can dynamcally change with extra lanes and new mobs.. Orginally the game had build timers and I am not sure exactly why they were removed. In Mastery you still have your intitial phase where you can survey the map and plan before being able to build. In the maps where you are given a timer it starts the second u press G and recieve your mana. you are given 30 seconds to place your defenses sometimes they must be 10 different defenses or no more than one of each type as well. You are also instructed that each combat phase must not take longer than 180 seconds. Although both games have the same premise use a combination of heroes and defenses to stop the onsluaght of enemies from destroying your crystal they are quite different games entirely. In DD1 you are punished for spawn camping in D2 you are activiely encouraged to spawn camp. In DD1 you rely mostly on your defenses and ralrely dps once your defenses are built except on boss maps in DD2 your hero have a way more active role unnless your defenses are overpowered for the difficulty. In DD1 you concentrate heroes on building or one ability in DD1 you have to specialise each defense separately and without a very high ascension have one hero for each defense you use.

my personal examples - Dd1 tower boost monk, hero boost monk and aura inititate 

DD2 pole smash monk, nuke monk, lightning aura monk, flame aura monk, skyguard monk.

DD1 tower Adept, mana bomb apprentice

Dd2 -Earthshatter Apprentice, barrier+ hero damage apprentice, tornado apprentice, mana bomb apprentice, Flamethrower apprentice, arcane bubble thing Adept, Hailstorm Adept, Arcane volley Apprentice

I could go on but I feel you have the main idea.

I still play both games on PC, heck I still even play DD1 on my PS3 where there is no online server anymore. I prefer DD1 way more than the second one, but I am willing to see where improvements can still be made in overall quality of life. DD1 for me is superior in many ways, but it still has flaws and places it could be improved. I recently replayed through the full campaign from the start on a new account on PC just to remind myself what progression actually feels like for a newer player. This is forgotten by many who consistently played the game since release back in 2010. I will admit progression is allot easier with the changes implemented by the CDT than it was before, even more so when compared to the console version where even going from hard to insane is way more difficult than on PC.

Edited by dizzydiana

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Caimen0 said:

Not sure what "lane schedule" is but I assume it has something to do with what mobs are going where and when, which DD1 does as well. (not very well, mind you)

Not where and when. DD2's Lane Schedules in Onslaught means having a different roster of enemies with different twist or mutators in each lane. For example, one lane would be pouring an army of different goblins with some flurry of kobolds that leaves a curse spot that weakens your defense as a twist (Timmy's Revenge with Cursi-Kaze). While the other lane only spawns Ogres that is immune to stuns and slows as a twist (Game-Ogre with Unstoppable and Headstrong). And another lane would have a variety of mobs that's immune to damage unless it's electrocuted, oiled, chilled or poisoned. (Any schedules with Controlled Burn) And so on.

No lane is the same and will be randomized with different twist with each map you enter. You have to build accordingly to counter each lane.

Edited by Paloverde zfogshooterz
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27 minutes ago, dizzydiana said:

In DD2 you have what I would call 3 phases one where you can survey the map and work out where lanes are, one you activate to start the buiding phase at which pint you are given enough mana to cover DU. Unnlike DD1 defense cost is completly tied to DU so where a spike barricade is 3 DU in DD1 its just 30 (mana cost) out of a total of say 1000 mana u can build with. this second phase is usually akin to that up to hard in DD1 with no timer. then finally the combat phase. You should of already have your full build done before even attempting the first wave unless in onslaught where maps can dynamcally change with extra lanes and new mobs.. Orginally the game had build timers and I am not sure exactly why they were removed.

I have 30 hours in DD2 so I at least have some idea of how the game works. I'll admit that's not much but I know the basics

 

28 minutes ago, dizzydiana said:

In Mastery you still have your intitial phase where you can survey the map and plan before being able to build. In the maps where you are given a timer it starts the second u press G and recieve your mana. you are given 30 seconds to place your defenses sometimes they must be 10 different defenses or no more than one of each type as well. You are also instructed that each combat phase must not take longer than 180 seconds.

It interests me that build timers are a sore point for DD2 players as that is significantly more restrictive than DD1 limitations.

 

29 minutes ago, dizzydiana said:

 In DD1 you are punished for spawn camping in D2 you are activiely encouraged to spawn camp.

Spawn camping is highly encouraged in DD1 as it significantly speeds up clear times. the "spawn kill" builds mostly don't look like DD2 builds because Deadly Strikers and Lightning Towers are insanely broken and can spawn kill from map center.

 

Thanks for clearing up the Mastery stuff.

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Caimen0 said:

I have 30 hours in DD2 so I at least have some idea of how the game works. I'll admit that's not much but I know the basics

 

It interests me that build timers are a sore point for DD2 players as that is significantly more restrictive than DD1 limitations.

 

Spawn camping is highly encouraged in DD1 as it significantly speeds up clear times. the "spawn kill" builds mostly don't look like DD2 builds because Deadly Strikers and Lightning Towers are insanely broken and can spawn kill from map center.

 

Thanks for clearing up the Mastery stuff.

I am sorry if I caused any offense by mentioning the basics of gameplay phases in DD2 I was unsure if you played DD2 or how recently you played it as it has changed allot over the past year. I only have around 1500 hrs o DD2 between 2 platforms compared to well over 5k hours between all 3 platforms for DD1 so I am no means an expert with DD2. As you rightly pointed out spawn killing can be managed in DD1 with the insane ranges of some towers and the chain lightning from the lightning tower. Although in spawn camping is different entirely  - in DD2 you want all of your defenses placed as close to the spawn point as possible which in most instances would just be foolish in DD1. The smaller ranges of defenses in DD2 make it more difficult to turtle maps in general and with lower attack speed cope less well with larger amount of mobs at once. In DD2 defenses have a limit of 10 mobs that they can hit at any one time in DD1 you could have literally 1000 mobs in your aura and every single one would receive damage. not to mention the purely ridiculously small trigger radius on the huntresses traps, complete joke in my opinion.

Edited by dizzydiana

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Posted (edited)

To me when I hear DD1 timer and read the above threads , know your  map know your build rinse repeat do it under so and so Time. Sounds very static and boring. I rather enjoy the same map in onslaught with random mobs every time, never the same build which will be hard for the know your build know your map game play.

Id like to have some thought in it rather then i have this amount of time to build the same thing.

Your not gong to build the same thing on the same map for Headstrong Ogre lane as you will with Controlled burn Ogre lane. ( now toss in a timer ) 

Again I will reserve judgment until i see the game play.

Edited by uzar
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well they need to announce their decision on this soon cause if they are just going to make this game for the hardcore top10% by adding mandatory timers than i would rather just skip this and cancel my preorders

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1 minute ago, Sneeze said:

nevermind youd probably just get angry at the paint for drying when you didnt want it to

there is no reason to add a timer. just time yourself with a stop watch

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Posted (edited)

Allot of these posts remind me of the multiple debates over hard counters. Some hated them, some didnt really care others insiting they added value to the game.   Players like me felt punished for playing ranged heroes as you could actually destroy the crystal with your own attack thanks to geodes as an example. Some players would answer just use Dryad or "git gud", insist that removing hard counters would make the game too easy.  Threads would get heated and sometimes toxic with no sign of any compromise. Eventually the Developers came up with MODS where you could further customise your hero to suit your playstyle and cope with mutators better in onslaught. For most players this seemed a fair compromise for everyone although perhaps not what people were looking for.  I would like to seek a solution before release rather than spend years debating it later.

Edited by dizzydiana
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, dizzydiana said:

Eventually the Developers came up with MODS where you could further customise your hero to suit your playstyle and cope with mutators better in onslaught.

Temporal Feather, Farmed at easy difficulty, equippable in an extra slot above the helm, has one effect and no stats: Removes timers from all game modes Kappa

Edited by Exglint
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2 minutes ago, Exglint said:

Temporal Feather, Farmed at easy difficulty, equippable in an extra slot above the helm, has one effect and no stats: Removes timers from all game modes Kappa

OMG I love it!!!! Even though I feel you are not being serious this post made my day thank you.

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6 hours ago, Exglint said:

Temporal Feather, Farmed at easy difficulty, equippable in an extra slot above the helm, has one effect and no stats: Removes timers from all game modes Kappa

Y'know, that would really actually make sense, since DDA has something to do with going back in time. So why not manipulate it? :squire_small:

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1 minute ago, Paloverde zfogshooterz said:

Y'know, that would really actually make sense, since DDA has something to do with going back in time. So why not manipulate it? :squire_small:

You have a point there! it will be interesting to see what changed by goinng back in time and if the heroes brought something with them to help inn some way. . With the premise that "the world is not how they remember it" using gimmicks like that might work. It will also be interesting to find out how are they going to get back to their own time? will the drastically alter the present etc? But perhaps that might be better speculated  on elsewhere.

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51 minutes ago, Paloverde zfogshooterz said:

Y'know, that would really actually make sense, since DDA has something to do with going back in time. So why not manipulate it? :squire_small:

I came up with a character in the turret ideas thread that could phase turrets and enemies, switching between two layouts for turrets, and phasing back targeted enemies through time to push them back in front of defenses they just past.

Time manipulation makes a lot of sense in this game. Now I'm also thinking difficulty modifiers that speed up or slow down time in game, not just the build timer.

I want this to be like DD1. sure, but I am all for new twists if they make sense and are fun.

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My honest thoughts for this thread regarding timers. 

I don't mind timers to a certain degree, but playing with timers every gameplay is another story. I'm one of those who dislike mastery due to that and quite glad to be done with it.

I will have to agree with the opinion with those who'd prefer timer being an option rather than mandatory. As for the aspect of remembering the pathing methods to race against the timer to build, it can get kinda boring eventually for me as I'd assume you have to build in that fashion the same way everytime you enter that map. I don't mind grinding with timers if there is great rewards in it but sometimes, I would like to chill around the map while building and I certainly would not want to chill in lower difficulties.

So yeah there's that.

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