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I really enjoy playing King's Game on DD1 and I know a lot of other people do too. One of the most important parts of the stage is getting the 10 bonus DUs. I think it would be cool if this was more common in DD:A. Maybe more stages could have a system for increasing DUs, or maybe there could be a different system for it. Maybe the "Riftwalker" hero could have some sort of ability for it. What do you guys think?

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Yes good thinking, I think thinking like you is good, I agree!

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Yeah, I think it is a bit annoying that the summoner is 100% necessary because he basically doubles DUs. So maybe they could give all heroes a chance to get more DUs.

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Not really sure that adding more ways to increase DU is a good idea, especially as an overall game mechanic. 

If the maps are balanced around their core DU value then you can basically make the game a joke by being able to place numerous extra defenses. (Or if it's only a tiny increase like on King's Game then it's not even worth thinking about).

And if the maps are balanced around the extra DU you can possibly get then you're basically forced into using it - at which point it isn't really "increasing" DU because it's the "intended" amount to be used. Might as well just stick to the original amounts and avoid the headache that such a system will cause new players.

DD1's Summoner showed off both of these things really. 

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2 hours ago, Cuddles said:

Not really sure that adding more ways to increase DU is a good idea, especially as an overall game mechanic. 

If the maps are balanced around their core DU value then you can basically make the game a joke by being able to place numerous extra defenses. (Or if it's only a tiny increase like on King's Game then it's not even worth thinking about).

And if the maps are balanced around the extra DU you can possibly get then you're basically forced into using it - at which point it isn't really "increasing" DU because it's the "intended" amount to be used. Might as well just stick to the original amounts and avoid the headache that such a system will cause new players.

DD1's Summoner showed off both of these things really. 

If balanced incorrectly then I agree with you completely, but I believe that it is possible to implement it in a way that it has a trade-off such as how negative stats dropping on items was implemented.   Couldn't a decrease in another stat (such as defense power/rate/range) in exchange for a lower DU cost balance in a way similar to how how negative stats was implemented in DD1.   Depending on how they implement the stat system, it is possible to implement a reduction in DU cost as an item stat while keeping it's use as a choice rather than a necessity.

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Posted (edited)

This is all assuming that the DU for the stage is perfect as is, which is something i am not so sure should be taken at face value. Many stages on DD1 and DD2 felt off on DU cost to me. Having a way to add more DU would be welcome on such a map, but proper balancing would be even better.

Edited by Jaws_420

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56 minutes ago, RustyCounterweight said:

Couldn't a decrease in another stat (such as defense power/rate/range) in exchange for a lower DU cost 

Well you'd have to look at more than just character stats to balance such a thing, at least how I see it. Especially if you're wanting to make the stat actually "useful" and not just "at hard cap you can place like maybe 2 more mid-DU defenses in a map".

You'd need to look at the design of the defenses themselves, how upgrades scale, types of mobs in the game, how fast mobs come at you, how many mobs will spawn at a time, mob caps on AoE defenses and probably a bunch of other stuff I'm not even considering. 

It certainly wouldn't be an easy task and considering CG has traditionally been bad at just balancing the defenses... Idk.

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Dynamic and unique aspect of maps is great for mixing up the game (obviously if done well ), increasing DU midway or changing map routes can get a sense of progression throughout the map itself. 

Once again, if done correctly.

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Posted (edited)

I like introducing any or all of the following ideas

- More heroes that can use minion units (so that it doesn't feel like just "one class" that uses them)

- Increasing DU gradually (only in survival based matches). This gives more a chance to people who aren't in end-game equipment. Winning survival was very hard in DD1 until your gear was very very good because of DU limitations.

- Infinite upgrades. Again this is primarily geared for survival. let us upgrade defense indefinitely. This would negate the need for more DU in most cases. Make all upgrades past triple star cost a lot (at least the same, 1220 mana). This also gives players more of a chance in survival with less than perfect gear. I would recommend keep the balance in survival the same though. Please don't balance the difficulty based upon the expectation that players will always get 10-20+ upgrades. that will make things super tedious. The purpose of this is to help out newer players only, not be a requirement to win. I will be annoyed if I have to micromanage 20 upgrades per tower every survival game even with good gear.

Edited by cirion0000
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37 minutes ago, cirion0000 said:

I like introducing any or all of the following ideas

- More heroes that can use minion units (so that it doesn't feel like just "one class" that uses them)

- Increasing DU gradually (only in survival based matches).

- Infinite upgrades. 

I wouldn't mind seeing another hero who has unique new minions and also a little extra DU to give slightly more flexibility in builds. However, I don't think infinite upgrades would be that great in anything other than a sandbox mode separate from survival, if in the game at all. Survival is meant to test your gear and builds to see how far you can go, up until completion if you finish all waves. If you could bypass gear progression by upgrading towers indefinitely, you would probably be able to beat survival while underleveled and undergeared simply by upgrading the towers past even a higher level character's stats. For example, say you would normally need to be level 70+ and have good upgraded gear, but with infinite upgrades a level 50 could just simply upgrade towers to rank 10+ and you would have equal stats or better than the level 70 that farmed and earned the gear necessary. This would make it diminishing to look for stronger gear for survival if you could just complete it with alot less work.

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, Legendary Dragonborn said:

I wouldn't mind seeing another hero who has unique new minions and also a little extra DU to give slightly more flexibility in builds. However, I don't think infinite upgrades would be that great in anything other than a sandbox mode separate from survival, if in the game at all. Survival is meant to test your gear and builds to see how far you can go, up until completion if you finish all waves. If you could bypass gear progression by upgrading towers indefinitely, you would probably be able to beat survival while underleveled and undergeared simply by upgrading the towers past even a higher level character's stats. For example, say you would normally need to be level 70+ and have good upgraded gear, but with infinite upgrades a level 50 could just simply upgrade towers to rank 10+ and you would have equal stats or better than the level 70 that farmed and earned the gear necessary. This would make it diminishing to look for stronger gear for survival if you could just complete it with alot less work.

I hear what you're saying, but infinite upgrades would not allow noobs to clear difficult survival matches that much easier for a couple simple reasons...

1. If all upgrades costs 1220+ mana, it's not like you can overnight upgrade like say 130 DU worth of defenses more than a few more times, even if you're using genies it will take a while.

2. Upgrades are based upon your base stats. If you have noob gear, you can upgrade all day you're still going to lose. A triple star defense with noob gear is far, far weaker than an un-upgraded tower with end-game gear.

3. You can slowly reduce the effectiveness of upgrades so there is diminishing returns.

It's just something to help someone who may be teetering on the "edge" of being able to win but just can't quite make it... you know what I mean? The other benefit of infinite upgrades would be that in Pure Strategy, you don't have to sell defenses mid-wave anymore to "Repair" them... I am not talking about someone with completely noob gear (I may have given that impression), I'm talking about times when you make it to like wave 23 (of 25) or something and lose, but a single extra upgrade or two might have made the difference...

It's just a thought though.

Edited by cirion0000

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On 4/2/2019 at 1:48 PM, RustyCounterweight said:

Assuming that they can find a way to balance it (so that its not 100% necessary on every build), I would like to see DU cost as a tower stat.

  • Please no. If extra DU could be farmed as a stat on items, then you'd just drive an even further wedge between newer Players (who would be using the default DU amount) vs. the 'Elite'-class of Players who would have more DU available, but wouldn't be the ones needing it (assuming they'd already have armor with high stats). You'd be giving the end-game players a "competitive advantage" when they don't need it (I know DD isn't a PvP game, so "competitive advantage" probably isn't the right term, but hopefully you can see where I'm coming from...).
  • The armor-stat-to-effectiveness ratio should have a diminishing return, so that you have to work for a bit longer to progress in whatever DDA's end-game mode will be.
  • Giving an end-game player the ability to have extra DU would be the exact opposite of a diminishing return.

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The king's game mechanic is just a gimmick to reward the curious people who discover all the different things that the tiles do. I do like level specific gimmicks but I don't know that this specific one should be added to more places.

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On 4/28/2019 at 12:36 PM, g_cracka88 said:
  • Please no. If extra DU could be farmed as a stat on items, then you'd just drive an even further wedge between newer Players (who would be using the default DU amount) vs. the 'Elite'-class of Players who would have more DU available, but wouldn't be the ones needing it (assuming they'd already have armor with high stats). You'd be giving the end-game players a "competitive advantage" when they don't need it (I know DD isn't a PvP game, so "competitive advantage" probably isn't the right term, but hopefully you can see where I'm coming from...).
  • The armor-stat-to-effectiveness ratio should have a diminishing return, so that you have to work for a bit longer to progress in whatever DDA's end-game mode will be.
  • Giving an end-game player the ability to have extra DU would be the exact opposite of a diminishing return.

Dependa how they implement it on gear and what not. So if say we have dd1 style gear when your gear applies to every tower and has several tower stats all at 1 time. Leta say defense unit cost ranged between 5-10 a piece but instead you gave up a tower stat (or it could even be 2). So you might give up stats like defense rate or area of effect. Does that make it worth it? Well that kind of depends.

 

If they did this with dd2 relics (assuming the old style of 2 stats per relic). Could for example of been one of the major stats. I think everyone pretty much went with damage and speed so would it of been worth giving up the speed for lower coat. Again it depends.

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Maybe DU needs a hard look at its implementation. Maybe more DU on easier difficulties. Maybe have a min DU amount based on number of lanes in a map or strength of enemies in a schedule. I would love to see some dynamic thinking in how DU is chosen for each map. In DD2, i felt there was a huge imbalance on this as some stages had excess DU, while others had razor thin amounts. 

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Posted (edited)

I haven't had a reason to search for the extra 10 DU in King's Game in at least 3 years, but you are onto a good point. My opinion is that one of the best ways to implement difficulty in a way other than simply increasing mob stats is to restrict DU wave 1 and incrememntally add more each wave. See Etherian Holiday Extravaganza in DD1. It is one of the more "difficult" maps for people to get a hang of because it requires adding more defenses each wave instead of being able to frontload your defenses on waves 1 and 2 and then simply upgrading them for the rest of the map.

Edited by Caimen0

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@vosh I appreciate your clarification! I think the balancing aspect would be difficult, but if the Dev team wanted to attempt some sort of "gambit" system where the player is faced with choosing between extra DU (with lower stats), or extra stats (with lower DU), then I think that would have the potential to work. Games are fun when the choice / decision-making process is put into the hands of the player, so a system along these lines might make building a character more strategic.

(Again, I still think this would be very hard to implement / balance though ;P)

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