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question on enemies?

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What enemies do you want to or not want to see in the game?

I don't really remember all the unique enemies in DD1 but I feel the genies were unique and provided a challenge.  However I also somehow remember they could desummon your towers around corners so maybe make sure there is some kind of line of sight if in the game.  I also really liked berserkers and throwers from DD2

 

I personally don't want to see kobolts or assassins from DD2.  Kobolts are a problem that either you can deal with them before they explode or you lose any chance you likely have to defend against air units.  Personally they seem like a gear check more then any skilled build/skilled play.  Assassins are annoying because you can get several in a row and they can lock you down.  I also tend to ignore them and just stand in my auras once they begin to spawn.  I don't know for a "unique" type of enemy they don't seem all that fun to interact with to me. 

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Posted (edited)

I would say djins and sharks from DD1 fall into the same category as kobolts. You have to deal with them fast enough before they can do any harm. So they are kind of a dps check. As you pointed out, djins could sometimes desummon a defense from a weird angle, through obstacles or gain a lot of distance while desummoning. This caused annoying situations and in my opinion Djins did not add too much to the gameplay experience, because either you could deal with them (enough dps) or they snowballed your defense.

Sharks were even worse. Usually they got stuck in your gas trap and again it was just a matter of a dps test. But sometimes they managed to activate their charge attack nevertheless and it was super annoying when a single shark run through all your defenses and one-hit the crystal. The main problem I have with their mechanic is, that it was a hard counter for the "normal" walls. If you had not enough dps to deal with them reliably, you were forced to use minions as walls and play the chester hero actively, because he had the ability to relocate the defenses back to their original place.

The copters were also not the most interesting enemies, because they forced you to cover your whole defenses behind reflection beams. So that's basically the other way around, you had to build one specific defense to hard-counter them. Oh and it was also super annoying, when one of their rockets still somehow managed to get through...

 

So I am not sure, if I am such a big fan of too specialized enemies. At least there should not be any enemies that hard counters a specific (type of) defense or force you to use a very specific defense just to counter them. I really liked the base mobs in DD1, the goblin, ork, kobolts supported by the mage and archers with the occassional ogres as a miniboss. And of course the swarms of wyverns in the air. This does not mean, I do not like a challenge but there are other ways to make things more trickier. Interesting mob design is not an easy task, if you think about it. There is a small gap between challenging and interesting mobs or those, which might sound cool as a design, but are just annoying in terms of gameplay.

Edited by The Ich
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I'd fine with most enemies returning EXCEPT for the following (unless they were reworked to function differently):

 

DD1: Spiders, Sharken, Genies.

 

DD2: Dark Assassins, Kobolts, Drakenlord.

 

Most of these guys could have a place in the game if they were reworked to be a little better balanced. Things like Genies were frustrating because, as The Ich mentioned, they did not end up actually needing line of sight to desummon your towers. And then you have enemies like Dark Assassins that completely lock down your character for several seconds yet are also completely unavoidable. And finally you have enemies like the Drakenlord that force players to ALWAYS have a certain attack type on hand in order to defeat him. Again, they could be in DDA, just please not as-is.

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I really like  most of the DD1 enemies other than genies and sharkens

From DD2 No to Dark assassins. drakenlord and those flying kobolts. These enemies were just annoying rather than challenging. Im on the fence about chaos enemies will depend more what towers we have to play with and we dont have possiblity of 2 opposite hard counters funneling together.

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This opens up a broader game design question. How much of your success in this game should rely on hero actions in the battle phase? Some people lean towards the more hardcore tower defense mentality, where a good tower setup with good stats should be all that's needed. Others leans towards the idea that a hero should be highly prioritized, to the point of being an absolute necessity at most, if not all difficulty levels. I think the answer lies in between, as the combination thereof is one of this game's unique and original qualities. The balance should be explored creatively though. DPS checks become stale and repetitive. Boring to watch, boring to play after a while, and don't require much thought or offer much replay value.

For example, heroes could have different battle phase purposes, and thus their stats and abilities would reflect. Say an app is meant to crowd control enemies and deal medium/small amounts of damage. Electric ability can paralyze, ice ability can freeze, magic ability can teleport enemies back, mana bomb ability can push enemies away from app while healing any towers/heroes in vicinity. Hero damage stat gives less actual damage per point then say a huntress would, as the app isn't meant to scale into a dps hero. Now you have a choice on the battlefield. Do I want to CC the enemies while my towers/friends do the work? Or would this map benefit more from a fast-paced high-dps hero, as perhaps it's a map with multiple lanes of flying enemies in every direction and a lower tower allowance (is this called DU? i forget lol). 

The question at this point becomes 'how do we stop the DPS hero (huntress) from always being the most useful?' I think that answer is one of three choices. Either

-Make all heroes do high damage (negating my previous paragraph), so that the focus of a hero is more about abilities/towers.
-Keep the DPS difference between heroes, but lower all hero DPS in general, so that towers are much more the focus.
-Create maps and enemies that would strategically suggest a different hero's strengths. 

That last one is hard to do. Quick idea along that line of thinking though. Say we have an enemy that charges towards defenses (sh rks, but just not sharks... like if they were reworked into a particular subclass of ogre). Let's say this ogre has a buff that gives him 50% reduction in hero damage or something, because he's wearing all this badass armor and he's holding no club, he's just there to football-player-charge into defenses... sole purpose in life. Upon seeing a defense, he becomes enraged, increasing the buff to an 80% reduction in hero damage but making him stand still for a couple of seconds to beat his chest and become red. After charging, he fatigues a bit which 'stuns' him for a couple of seconds and his buff reduces back to the 50% reduction. So you counter him a few ways. Either put a decoy defense earlier up in the lane than your normal defenses, which lets you use a DPS hero and just focus him for longer than most other enemies, or use a CC-centric hero in the battle phase like an app to stun, slow, or knock him back, particularly as he's charging, letting your towers do the work. 

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10 hours ago, Aheadatlme said:


For example, heroes could have different battle phase purposes, and thus their stats and abilities would reflect. Say an app is meant to crowd control enemies and deal medium/small amounts of damage. Electric ability can paralyze, ice ability can freeze, magic ability can teleport enemies back, mana bomb ability can push enemies away from app while healing any towers/heroes in vicinity. Hero damage stat gives less actual damage per point then say a huntress would, as the app isn't meant to scale into a dps hero. Now you have a choice on the battlefield. Do I want to CC the enemies while my towers/friends do the work? Or would this map benefit more from a fast-paced high-dps hero, as perhaps it's a map with multiple lanes of flying enemies in every direction and a lon the battle phase like an app to stun, slow, or knock him back, particularly as he's charging, letting your towers do the work. 

 

Although I understand where this idea comes from Im not overly keen on it. I dont want to be forced to play a hero I dont like or not be able to play a hero i do like. It was the same with chaos tiers I love ranged heroes, but before MODs my projectiles could bounce of those bubble thing and either kill myself or the core. I felt forced to play melee which I CANNOT stand. I feel the next DDA should give freedom of choice so I and others can play their favourite heroes and not feel nerfed just because of hero choice. 

I do agree however that a mix of dps and towers is a good idea. We shouldnt feel forced to just sit and crystal and hide like DD1 or able to just dps a lane like DD2. Ias the game relies heavily on strategy Id say have towers do about 80% of the required work leaving some room for DPS.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, dizzydiana said:

Although I understand where this idea comes from Im not overly keen on it. I dont want to be forced to play a hero I dont like or not be able to play a hero i do like. It was the same with chaos tiers I love ranged heroes, but before MODs my projectiles could bounce of those bubble thing and either kill myself or the core. I felt forced to play melee which I CANNOT stand. I feel the next DDA should give freedom of choice so I and others can play their favourite heroes and not feel nerfed just because of hero choice. 

I do agree however that a mix of dps and towers is a good idea. We shouldnt feel forced to just sit and crystal and hide like DD1 or able to just dps a lane like DD2. Ias the game relies heavily on strategy Id say have towers do about 80% of the required work leaving some room for DPS.

Yeah, the focus should definitely be more on defensive structures. Heroes are supposed to supplement the defenses, not to replace them.

While the numbers of players can vary significantly, the map size and the lane layout does not. You have to keep solo and duo-players in mind. And especially as a solo player you cannot be everywhere at the same time.

Given good but not overpowered stats for a particular map, I would say that the defense should handle normal mobs on their own. Heroes should be there to maintain the defenses (repairing, upgrading) and to help out against mini bosses (for example ogres) or large "special sub-waves" like a wyvern swarm.

Edited by The Ich
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