Jump to content
dizzydiana

Massacre Difficulty

Recommended Posts

As we get even closer to the flex goal for massacre difficulty I was wondering what would you like to see in this? WHat new enemiy/enemies would you put in. Is this possibly where some chaos enemies could go? What can be more annoying than cyborks sharkens spiders etc? ALthough I'm not a fan of chaos enemies per se I would quite like the frost enemies or something similar in DDA. Depending on level cap this difficulty I think should be for players 85+ with gear dropping accordingly. As long as the transition is smoother than going from insane to NM where you could complete insane at around 60 but needed to get to 74 and farm wave 1 of a map like Endless spires to grab some Mythic gear to then try to do any Nm maps. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as Im aware from playing DD1 waaaay back in the day, a new difficulty only meant more hp, damage, and speed for enemies. Then Mixed Mode is what brought in more enemy types. I wouldn't go in thinking Massacre will bring anything but an increase to hp, damage and speed for enemies unless they state that this was the way they were going or wanted to go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 Maybe enemies could have elemental shields instead of resistances, where enemies can only be damaged by that element instead of being immune to it. For example, electric enemies can only be damaged by electric weapon attacks, Lightning Towers, or Electric Auras, etc. This seems like it would definitely change things up, especially if it was expanded upon or added to, making it truly difficult. Especially with the below idea stacking alongside it.

Also, here's a link to a similar difficulty enhancement idea involving mutators that could be "always on" for Massacre difficulty.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Legendary Dragonborn said:

 Maybe enemies could have elemental shields instead of resistances, where enemies can only be damaged by that element instead of being immune to it. For example, electric enemies can only be damaged by electric weapon attacks, Lightning Towers, or Electric Auras, etc. This seems like it would definitely change things up, especially if it was expanded upon or added to, making it truly difficult. Especially with the below idea stacking alongside it.

Also, here's a link to a similar difficulty enhancement idea involving mutators that could be "always on" for Massacre difficulty.

 

i think it would better to have it so that enemies take like 25% less damage unless you use the element of their shield. i would hate it if you had to have a weapon with that specific element or an ability with that element. i doubt every hero would have every element on hand to deal with every type of elementally shielded enemy

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Exglint said:

As far as Im aware from playing DD1 waaaay back in the day, a new difficulty only meant more hp, damage, and speed for enemies.

It reduced aura radius by a significant amount, reduced hero DPS by 85%, and slightly increased tower DPS, added all Shards enemies to all map spawns, along with the factors you mentioned.

Mix mode was a survival option that just randomized the spawns and increased loot quality by a small amount.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, super_slayan said:

i think it would better to have it so that enemies take like 25% less damage unless you use the element of their shield. i would hate it if you had to have a weapon with that specific element or an ability with that element. i doubt every hero would have every element on hand to deal with every type of elementally shielded enemy

Considering Massacre difficulty is supposed to be alot harder than nightmare, it needs something extra to change things up more than nightmare. That change could work as long as it has something else alongside it like maybe the  mutators idea I mentioned or another new factor. Only losing 25% damage against opposite elemental enemies isn't enough to worry about changing up your playstyle, but it's a start.

Thanks for the feedback.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't really see myself able to give suggestions on massacre without knowing how nightmare will be. I would like it to be the same transition from Insane - > Nightmare but I doubt it will be.

I'd like to give suggestions to make it harder compared to nightmare but without knowing how nightmare will work and how rewarding it will be, I just feel like I wouldn't be giving great ideas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, dizzydiana said:

As long as the transition is smoother than going from insane to NM

Well if it's actually going to be "difficult" then the transition is going to be much, much rougher than that.

1 hour ago, Legendary Dragonborn said:

Only losing 25% damage against opposite elemental enemies isn't enough to worry about changing up your playstyle, but it's a start.

If the enemies are going to be much faster and have tons more HP then 25% damage loss is actually pretty massive. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Cuddles said:

If the enemies are going to be much faster and have tons more HP then 25% damage loss is actually pretty massive. 

You might be right about that, just trying to throw some ideas around, but most would need some kind of balance. That's why I'm happy to share it here, so it can be discussed for the flaws that would be present. Thanks for the feedback.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd hate to be guilty of asking too much, but I actually didn't mind the chaos enemies in some ways (except dark assassins. Yuck). I'd like some progression that makes us think on the fly without making things super frustrating. My issue with things like Cyborks in DD2 was that they spawned in ALL lanes (Onslaught kinda-sorta changed that, but replaced it with other issues) in their respective chaos difficulty, rendering a lot of tower types utterly useless. Mods offered a "cure" to that issue, but both a perfect tenacity servo or the Automation shard were beyond most players to obtain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Cuddles said:

Well if it's actually going to be "difficult" then the transition is going to be much, much rougher than that.

If the enemies are going to be much faster and have tons more HP then 25% damage loss is actually pretty massive. 

Perhaps I should be a little more clear what I really mean about a smoother transition than from Insane to NM.Gear dropped by completing all campaign maps and even shard maps were pretty much useless in NM. You could also complete with very low stats and below the 74 required for Mythic gear. getting Mythic gear on most maps in insane meant going to end waves of survival mostly likely in Mixed mode and those were very poor not much better than godly and you lost your set bonus if you tried to mix godly with mythic. I would up insane difficulty somewhat and make it more possible to farm starter Sets for NM IN Insane difficulty. The jump between the modes just didnt feel intuitive and the difference between hard and insane was negligible other than the introduction of build timers.

Edited by dizzydiana

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Cuddles said:

Well if it's actually going to be "difficult" then the transition is going to be much, much rougher than that.

The main problem with this line is that its self defeating. Any difficulty in a game is thus rendered easy by the gear that drops from said difficulty, and any difficulty without a reward is not worth doing. If the transition is the only thing hard about the difficulty then player will most likely not do it or wait until someone can reliably carry others and take the "elevator to the top floor" so to speak and that transition is now rendered passable by anyone with social skills.

By now I hope that CG has a very good grasp of how to do these things without our input of scaling and they would like to come to us with different ideas they are tossing around to see which we would like best as a whole, probably and most likely through several outlets like Twitter, Discord, Forums and FB, to get the opinion of more than just those who are on the forums. At least that's what I would do since developers and players very often have different ideas about what they want in the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Exglint said:

Any difficulty in a game is thus rendered easy by the gear that drops from said difficulty

Only true if the difficulty is basically "static", like it is in DD2 (at least it was last I played). Chaos 2 is chaos 2 no matter the map. Chaos 4 is chaos 4 no matter the map. There's no actual progression outside of the difficulty level itself. 

In DD1 the maps got progressively harder as you went on. More waves, more mobs per wave, higher mob hp, etc. This meant there was genuine progression inside each difficulty and you weren't just dominating every map as soon as you got your first gear set from that difficulty.

DD1 had a much better system IMO and I hope it returns.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, Cuddles said:

Only true if the difficulty is basically "static", like it is in DD2 (at least it was last I played). Chaos 2 is chaos 2 no matter the map. Chaos 4 is chaos 4 no matter the map. There's no actual progression outside of the difficulty level itself. 

In DD1 the maps got progressively harder as you went on. More waves, more mobs per wave, higher mob hp, etc. This meant there was genuine progression inside each difficulty and you weren't just dominating every map as soon as you got your first gear set from that difficulty.

DD1 had a much better system IMO and I hope it returns.

the more linear progression map to map in DD1 in campaign to CD is I agree better than going through any map in Chaos tiers. DD2 originally had something similar with higher maps being more difficult and dropping gear accordingly. The newer maps put in soley for end game players like Moonbase though I didnt like as much. It was always fun going back playing through campaign at the next level of difiuclty. Going back to each map in each level of chaos never really caught my attention to the same degree. You would just pick which maps you knew best and farmed there for gear/shards etc no real need to do other maps except for maybe dailies or specific crafting items. 

Edited by dizzydiana

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, dizzydiana said:

the more linear progression map to map in DD1 in campaign to CD is I agree better than going through any map in Chaos tiers. DD2 originally had something similar with higher maps being more difficult and dropping gear accordingly. The newer maps put in soley for end game players like Moonbase though I didnt like as much. It was always fun going back playing through campaign at the next level of difiuclty. Going back to each map in each level of chaos never really caught my attention to the same degree. You would just pick which maps you knew best and farmed there for gear/shards etc no real need to do other maps except for maybe dailies or specific crafting items. 

And this is where DD1 had an issue that will most likely be corrected in the way I mentioned before. As you go into a new difficulty to make its progression feel better than "Go to map X and farm gear", the gear you get from just entering the difficulty on the first map will start you down the path of making that difficulty easy. The difficulty of the entire game will probably be a smoother line (curved line) than jagged spikes and provide gear to go to the next map (or repeat a previous one for more gear) and progress players forward.

Essentially, everyone will make it to the end of Massacre given that they play the same active hours plus or minus 10-50 depending on the person. It wont be a matter of being told where to farm or luck in finding that map on your own.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like this to be a scaling difficulty that bases it values by the strongest player on the map, so that it is never easy. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Exglint said:

And this is where DD1 had an issue that will most likely be corrected in the way I mentioned before. As you go into a new difficulty to make its progression feel better than "Go to map X and farm gear", the gear you get from just entering the difficulty on the first map will start you down the path of making that difficulty easy. The difficulty of the entire game will probably be a smoother line (curved line) than jagged spikes and provide gear to go to the next map (or repeat a previous one for more gear) and progress players forward.

Essentially, everyone will make it to the end of Massacre given that they play the same active hours plus or minus 10-50 depending on the person. It wont be a matter of being told where to farm or luck in finding that map on your own.

I feel we are on the same page. Gear dropping on X or Y map should scale to the difficulty of said map and allow you to progress towards  attempting the next map. The one problem I had in progression in DD1 was where some maps or survivals would actually require higher stats than would even be a possible drop in that map/mode. This frustrated me no end feeling just stuck in progression or looking to be carried which I dont like to do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I kinda want to see it be a no-build-phase mode.  Maybe give X seconds to setup where X is based on the map, but then just have constant streams of enemies.  No down-time for repairs or upgrades.  Really makes you feel like you are massacring the horde :squire_small:

As for rewards, base it on the total number of enemies killed, or perhaps a rarity bar that "levels up" after so long and starts dropping the next color up.

Then again, maybe I really just want an endless mode that actually doesn't end.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Batophobia said:

I kinda want to see it be a no-build-phase mode.  Maybe give X seconds to setup where X is based on the map, but then just have constant streams of enemies.  No down-time for repairs or upgrades.  Really makes you feel like you are massacring the horde :squire_small:

As for rewards, base it on the total number of enemies killed, or perhaps a rarity bar that "levels up" after so long and starts dropping the next color up.

Then again, maybe I really just want an endless mode that actually doesn't end.

please no. i already hated the “30 second build phases” in mastery in DD2. this would totally just keep me from even trying this mode. i like to take my time when building and looking through my gear for any upgrades

Edited by super_slayan
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, super_slayan said:

please no. i already hated the “30 second build phases” in mastery in DD2. this would totally just keep me from even trying this mode

I wouldn't be against no timer on the initial build and then just no build phase after you start.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Batophobia said:

I wouldn't be against no timer on the initial build and then just no build phase after you start.

id be prety happy with this, i struggle to build in time due to various issues (mini stroke + others). If I can place initially at my own pace idc afterwards.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Batophobia said:

I wouldn't be against no timer on the initial build and then just no build phase after you start.

I get the premise but put into action it doesn't seem like it really does much. Build phases beyond the first are normally instant skipped with the exception of the lost temple on DD2 and the 2nd wave on some maps on DD1 to place all the summoner minions which I don't think is something we'll need to worry about in DDA.

43 minutes ago, Batophobia said:

Then again, maybe I really just want an endless mode that actually doesn't end.

For the longest time I wanted an "endless" mode but at this point I'm not sure. DD2 showed that it's something that's kind of hard to implement into the game properly because it's something that's very difficult to balance in terms of rewards. 

I think the biggest issue is you can't really put in much of an incentive for people to "push" the endless aspect much farther than the longer DD1 survivals go, which largely makes it pointless beyond the novelty of having something that's "endless". You can't really have more powerful stuff start dropping numerous hours in because 1) it promotes unhealthy play and 2) screws people that don't have huge chunks of free time, and "novelty" rewards only attract so much interest (as DD2 showed).

As much as I'm a fan of endless game modes I really don't imagine it's even worth CG's effort trying to implement at this point, especially seeing as they're more than likely going to be on a pretty tight schedule developing DDA. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Cuddles said:

I think the biggest issue is you can't really put in much of an incentive for people to "push" the endless aspect much farther than the longer DD1 survivals go, which largely makes it pointless beyond the novelty of having something that's "endless". You can't really have more powerful stuff start dropping numerous hours in because 1) it promotes unhealthy play and 2) screws people that don't have huge chunks of free time, and "novelty" rewards only attract so much interest (as DD2 showed).

well said. There really should be a cutoff on any significant rewards at like wave 25, and beyond that is just for leaderborad glory or the fun of playing. Maybe sligjtly elevated stats on dropped gear, or just a % chance at it. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Massacre's difficulty spike is going to be that every enemy now has 7 machetes, 4 snakes, and a box of pineapple pizza.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Cuddles said:

I get the premise but put into action it doesn't seem like it really does much. Build phases beyond the first are normally instant skipped with the exception of the lost temple on DD2 and the 2nd wave on some maps on DD1 to place all the summoner minions which I don't think is something we'll need to worry about in DDA.

For the longest time I wanted an "endless" mode but at this point I'm not sure. DD2 showed that it's something that's kind of hard to implement into the game properly because it's something that's very difficult to balance in terms of rewards. 

I think the biggest issue is you can't really put in much of an incentive for people to "push" the endless aspect much farther than the longer DD1 survivals go, which largely makes it pointless beyond the novelty of having something that's "endless". You can't really have more powerful stuff start dropping numerous hours in because 1) it promotes unhealthy play and 2) screws people that don't have huge chunks of free time, and "novelty" rewards only attract so much interest (as DD2 showed).

As much as I'm a fan of endless game modes I really don't imagine it's even worth CG's effort trying to implement at this point, especially seeing as they're more than likely going to be on a pretty tight schedule developing DDA. 

If they made an endless mode that allowed us to save our wave/build/mana/so on and come back to it on another day and time, then I would be fine with it.   Otherwise, I agree.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...