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xarta

Hero Diversity - Too many Options lead to one optimized solutions?

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Hi All,

My favourite point of the dungeon defenders life-span was the Original Dungeon Defenders 1 pre-summoner and EV patch. The introduction to those summoners really shock up the game for me and not in a good way. Builds became much more linear and you could go on many maps and use the same tactic ( Any choke put an EV power beam with some summoner units and a reflection wall, maybe a strong drain aura if you have the DU). I feel when you add more heroes and utility like this it opens to way for way too many optimisation methods and solutions like that become the norm.

Pre this patch, Going to 1-60 was great in the builds you could use and even on survival. On some maps, you even could to use the Bowling ball cannon!? That tower just when out the window. It seemed to me that at the end of all the patches; each Hero had 1 or 2 towers it was used for and that was it. Late game I don't think the squire could even be used for towers as the harpoons angle of range was too small for spiders and the walls were out-classed by the EV.


Personally, the EV power beam was way to optimal for the game. I believe it was so DU efficient to use, 1 tower with a tower beam outclassed 2 towers without; meaning 1 tower on a beam was more than worth it. Which to me sounds silly as even with 1 tower it can be used, the efficiency of 4/5 towers of it is crazy. Same with the Summoner, having it's on Units of defence made it a must for people that didn't even enjoy the hero or with the jester were at the end of your build you could farm presents to get more DU efficient towers which to me, just wasn't fun.

I'm curious what other people think of this.

 

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I understand where you are coming from and to some respects I agree. Buff beams were almost a requirement for NM maps since using DU any other way without was almost pointless. Minion walls were only OP due to the mage being able to heal the full wall without a mage they could fail as easily as any other wall.No matter how many utility heroes there are or not there will always be a META for any content. With DD2 the buff beam was nerfed to a point is wasnt even worth considering using for the DU cost along with other towers great in DD1 they became pointless in DD2. It is hard to find a balance between functional and usefulness. Each tower has to be useful for the DU cost above everything else if we wish to see variety in builds. In DD1 and DD2 most heroes only have 1 or 2 towers actually worth using in end game content and that to me is what needs to change. Giving each tower a specific function that can work in every mode not just one or 2 with the rest basically forgotten.

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42 minutes ago, dizzydiana said:

Giving each tower a specific function that can work in every mode not just one or 2 with the rest basically forgotten.

 

Totally agree, however even with the original 4 heroes with 4 towers each; how much functions can we fill before one just become better than the other.

The unique aspect with the minion walls was they had a ranged 360° coverage, which apart from the lightning tower was completely unique and with the introduction of spiders spawning behind defences was core to defences survival.  Adding them to the meta; the function was created and it was the main option to deal with them.

The point I'm concerned about are these fancy utility towers. By design, I can't see how you can balance the buff beam. it's either efficient or not.  The only way is if you were restricted by space and needed better defences to be condensed which buff beams would do. 

51 minutes ago, dizzydiana said:

Minion walls were only OP due to the mage being able to heal the full wall without a mage they could fail as easily as any other wall.No matter how many utility heroes there are or not there will always be a META for any content.

1

I know there always will be meta content, regardless of the number of defences and what they do.

I remember playing league of legends back in season 2, each role had 1-3 Meta champions. The game now (Haven't played in around 2 years)  has well over double the number of champions and still, this 1-3 champions per role exist. This leads me back to my previous point. Each Tower needs a function, there are a limited amount of functions a tower can accomplish; the more heroes the more useless towers and when you add utility; it's hard to not make it black or white whether or not to use it.

Also there's the aspect of the more towers you have, balances become increasingly more difficult and the range of effectiveness from the super-duper meta towers to the unused becomes wider and wider making it harder to strain too far away from the meta as the difficulty of maps are built of the effectiveness of the meta.

a side note from this: I would love to see challenge maps or option like a mixed mod that limits the number of hero's that can builds towers on the map. E.g choose 3 or complete map only using the original characters; this makes the limited pool have more uses.

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1 minute ago, xarta said:

 

a side note from this: I would love to see challenge maps or option like a mixed mod that limits the number of hero's that can builds towers on the map. E.g choose 3 or complete map only using the original characters; this makes the limited pool have more uses.

Yes limiting amount of different heroes used could well help improving usefulness for specific towers/heroes. I just hated th efact that outwith campaign towers like slice and dice served little purpose and dd2s huntress traps seemed to serve no real purpose at all except for occasional geyser traps in niche builds. I understand some towers will always do better than others but if each has a unique mechanic (like how DD1s cannonballs would do more damage if placed uphill) but could still be viable in later content. I dont want to be limited in my approach or have towers than are purely there to fill the quoata alloted with no real purpose. As i said i for the most part agree with you, I just dont want to completely kill off towers like buff beams or minions. Just make it that other towers can be viable too.

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1 hour ago, dizzydiana said:

 I just hated th efact that outwith campaign towers like slice and dice served little purpose and dd2s huntress traps seemed to serve no real purpose at all except for occasional geyser traps in niche builds. I understand some towers will always do better than others but if each has a unique mechanic (like how DD1s cannonballs would do more damage if placed uphill) but could still be viable in later content. I dont want to be limited in my approach or have towers than are purely there to fill the quoata alloted with no real purpose. As i said i for the most part agree with you, I just dont want to completely kill off towers like buff beams or minions. Just make it that other towers can be viable too.

10

Yeah, I remember first using that slice and dice, it looks sooo cool and after placing it once. Never again :(  I think a sinking point of the towers like Slice and Dice is that they didn't benefit from the stats well. I believe tower range didnt effect at all and attack speed scaling existed but wasn't a good as other towers.

I like the idea of mechanics like the cannons balls doing extra damage when placed uphill sounds interesting.  That could be part of a solution to get the environment to buff/nerf towers. If monsters are in Water make lightning do 10% more damage and fire do 10% less.  

Also could make it is so certain enemies are weak to certain attacks? E.g Some where armour which make them defence again non-magic attacks etc  or E.g Fire, lighting, boulders are crush, harpoons are piece etc. Once again it's hard to tell if this stuff will push a meta or increase viable options for players. Bad examples but just spitballing

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, xarta said:

The point I'm concerned about are these fancy utility towers. By design, I can't see how you can balance the buff beam. it's either efficient or not.

I was thinking the same thing. The only way I can think of not having them used all the time is if you would have too many places to cover and not enough DU for the buffs.

I don't think the answer should be to have towers have too much of a unique role. Like only shooting air.

  1. Some towers would be completely useless in some situations
  2. Yes maybe you end up using more different towers but in the end you'd likely still be using the same combination of towers, just of a higher diversity.
  3. You should think "Hey I think this tower would be better here" and not feel forced to.

 

Quote

DizzyDiana said :
I understand some towers will always do better than others but if each has a unique mechanic (like how DD1s cannonballs would do more damage if placed uphill) but could still be viable in later content.

I think that's a very good example. I think that towers, at least offensive ones, should be viable in any situation i.e almost all having their own unique ability. Examples from towers in DD1 ; The cannonball tower would excel if placed uphill and the harpoon towers could hit a pretty much infinite amount of lined up enemies. But I think they should not only be effective at doing one thing.

I think that maps and towers should be created in symbiosis or at least create one to go with the other.

Like you guys said, in the end there will always be an optimal setup/combinations. You can still build any way you want when you try to build a map but why think of a different way when you know one that almost always work.

In DD1, you still had to imagine a defense on a new map but you mainly just had to adjust your setup according to how many places/angles you had to defend. You rarely thought "I think using those different towers I almost never use would be better".

I think the best solution would be if each map designs and the things you encounter on them had you thinking "What are the best towers I can use" the first time you play them. But you can't really expect to be building differently after you've found a way that works. Unless :

  1. There are special modes that only let you build specific towers/classes or achievements/rewards tied to doing so by yourself. If it's a special mode, the difficulty and tower stats should be preset and it should be in Strategy mode so you can't cheat with hero dps and playing with others wouldn't make it easier.
     
  2. There would be random elements. I think it should be different every map and not every waves. You would have to re-think a strategy every time you re-play that map. Something similar to mixed modes but tuned to each map individually. The next time  you play that map you could be facing new enemies/a boss that would have you build differently. There should be a warning/indicator way ahead of time so you can be prepared. Another option could be that the next time you play a map, the enemy pathing would be different in a way that forces you to use a different combination of towers.


In the end, I think you can't prevent the same optimal layout being used over and over in a map. But most towers should have specials traits and each maps should be made to encourage the player making use of different towers.

I think it would be worthwhile if people suggested special tower abilities and ways to exploit them in a map. Like the cannon ball tower and hills. Maybe have the cannon ball tower have 2 firing mode that you can manually toggle. By example, 1 mode where the tower has 900 range and fires explosive AoE canon balls and another mode where it has not activation range but constantly fires a projectiles directly in front of it that rolls and goes through enemies and the rolling projectile could possibly do more damage the more it bounces or the faster it rolls etc. The ball would roll farther with better range stats and if it's rolling downhill.

 

P.S. Since not everyone plays multiple heroes and have access to all the towers, you can't expect a setup using a wider range of towers to not work on almost all maps at lower difficulty. But I understand people wanting the highest difficulties not to have a "fits all" towers combination.

Edited by Windex
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Diverse heroes aren't the problem. The problem is Power Creep, where new heroes had much more potent defenses than the old ones. Enemies also experienced power creep, seemingly with the intention of completely mitigating the original heroes' defenses, thus forcing people to use the overpowered EV and Summoner defenses to even have a chance.

 

Sharken moves your blockades? Use minion blockades that walk back into place.

Spider webs your turrets?  Use minions that DGAF about being webbed.

Djinn desummons your turrents? Use minions who are immune to desummoning.

 

It's blatant and very poor design.

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22 minutes ago, Kobalobasileus said:

Diverse heroes aren't the problem. The problem is Power Creep, where new heroes had much more potent defenses than the old ones. Enemies also experienced power creep, seemingly with the intention of completely mitigating the original heroes' defenses, thus forcing people to use the overpowered EV and Summoner defenses to even have a chance.

 

Sharken moves your blockades? Use minion blockades that walk back into place.

Spider webs your turrets?  Use minions that DGAF about being webbed.

Djinn desummons your turrents? Use minions who are immune to desummoning.

 

It's blatant and very poor design.

Completely for about the Sharkens and Dijinn,  looks bad it was bad design but I can see why they did it. They wanted to mix it up and add new mechanics for us to do deal with but only really gave 1 solution for them, the new hero's .

But regardless of if they were added in the game and balanced.  There would still be a problem with a great number of towers that will just never be used.

1 hour ago, Windex said:

Yes maybe you end up using more different towers but in the end you'd likely still be using the same combination of towers, just of a higher diversity.

1

That what was a big problem for me, it's not only using the same towers but it's using the exact same combination of towers for each choke.

 

1 hour ago, Windex said:

.

I think the best solution would be if each map design and the things you encounter on them had you thinking "What are the best towers I can use" the first time you play them. But you can't really expect to be building differently after you've found a way that works. Unless :

  1. There are special modes that only let you build specific towers/classes or achievements/rewards tied to doing so by yourself. If it's a special mode, the difficulty and tower stats should be preset and it should be in Strategy mode so you can't cheat with hero dps and playing with others wouldn't make it easier.
     
  2. There would be random elements. I think it should be different every map and not every waves. You would have to re-think a strategy every time you re-play that map. Something similar to mixed modes but tuned to each map individually. The next time  you play that map you could be facing new enemies/a boss that would have you build differently. There should be a warning/indicator way ahead of time so you can be prepared. Another option could be that the enemy pathing would be different.

In the end, I think you can't prevent the same optimal layout being used over and over in a map. But most towers should have specials traits and each maps should be made to encourage the player making use of a few of those.

3

 

I agree I think map design is the secret here. It should encourage the use of certain towers as there will excel in this area.
The problem I had with the previous maps was that you could do a simple process 99% of the time:

  1. Locate chokes
  2. Place Physical Beam + Reflection Beam + Buff Beam + Str Drain Aura + Minions at each choke until DU used.

As you said, you should be able to think -" Oh wow this is a great line, I should use the harpoon".

There will always be optimal set-ups for maps, but the maps should at least have unique strategies, not the same type of placement each time. I like your idea about the changing cannon type.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I'm loving more and more the idea of alternative tower modes. Just to specify, I'm not talking about modes that you would put in a tower to change the way it works. I'm not really for the idea of adding a ton of mods for annoying complexity and a false feeling of diversity. Also the possible need to always play with your mods.

Offensive towers could have two "forms" that you could easily change with one click by having an intuitive option when opening the character window. Each "form" would have it's own appearance and use. I already gave one for the canon ball ;

" 1 mode where the tower has 900 range and fires explosive AoE canon balls and another mode where it has not activation range but constantly fires a projectiles directly in front of it that rolls and goes through enemies and the rolling projectile could possibly do more damage the more it bounces or the faster it rolls etc. The ball would roll farther with better range stats and if it's rolling downhill. "

It's 900 range one time explosion AoE "form" could be a thinner canon pointed at a high degree while it's rolling ball form could be downward, bigger looking canon that fires a much bigger canon ball.
 

The fireball tower would have 2 "forms" :

One where it could look similar to how it looks in DD1, where it visually charges up and fires a ball of fire that explodes and ignites enemy. With this suggestion it would have a similar use as the first cannon ball tower "form" but it would deal less AoE damage than it but more damage total with it's additional ignite damage. The downside is that it would be vulnerable to fire immune enemies and would need to be placed in a nice spot to get the most out of it if you want the enemies to die before they get to your defenses.

The other "form" would look like a laser and would shoot a single target fire beam that does not ignite the enemies but deals increasingly more damage the longer it shoots an enemy. Up to a certain amount of damage per tick.

One "form" has AoE and doesn't really need to be placed in open areas while the other "form" would benefit most from starting to shoot at full range and deals high single target damage if needed.

Maybe prevent being able to change tower "forms" more than once per game to prevent a meta of just selling back and changing tower forms when needed.



My ideas kinda go against the subject of this thread but I'm suggesting ways to keep every towers viable and not actually adding more towers. :)

Edited by Windex

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 To avoid "optimal setups" a little more, you could include specialization options for towers similar to what you mentioned(somewhat like shards that changed tower functionality in DD2) such as:

•AOE instead of single target or vice versa

•Elemental dmg instead of physical or vice versa

•More range and dmg but less fire rate

•Healing auras could protect towers inside from being moved/despawned

•Huntress traps can cause chain reactions between enemies

•Auras are half as effective but don't run out 

•spike blockades have small chance to stun, repairs percentage of HP when it does

Different functionality for towers probably won't solve the meta problem entirely, but it would give more options and variety for what kind of towers/builds you want to try, which is usually a added bonus for me.

Just thinking wildly, but each tower could gain exp the more you use them and at certain levels(50 is max), it unlocks different "perks" similar to those listed above and maybe even determines the max rank you can upgrade a tower. For example, you use the Deadly Strike Tower alot and it reaches level 10, it can now be upgraded to rank 2 and it gains the perk "Targeted VIP", which makes it target the strongest enemies first. Eventually, you get it to level 50, it can now be upgraded to rank 5 while playing and you unlock the perk "Energy Wave" which has a 10% chance to fire a horizontal beam each time it fires.

These are just examples, but you can see that it could be a good foundation for a nice tower progression system and open a way to encourage other tower use. What do you guys think?

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Posted (edited)

I am really enjoyin the idea to improve towers espically the base 4. As has been mentioned the base 4 heroes in both DD1 and DD2 never really got that much love compared to newer heroes. I have always beleived in giving players as much choice as possible and not forcing them to play ONE way. I still feel utility towers like buff beams or boost auras can have a place in DDA but I do conceed some more thought has to be thought into how effective they are. I just hope to avoid heroes Like the dryad in DD2 where playing her active was really the only way her towers were effective (really meant going from blah to more or less OP ). Or heroes where most of the towers are just not worth the DU like the Lavamancer ( I liked his towers but some were far too costly to use). In both DD1 and DD2 it was difficult to complete all content with just the base 4 which frustrated me and I hope this will change for DDA.

Edited by dizzydiana
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Legendary Dragonborn said:

 To avoid "optimal setups" a little more, you could include specialization options for towers similar to what you mentioned(somewhat like shards that changed tower functionality in DD2) such as:

•AOE instead of single target or vice versa

•Elemental dmg instead of physical or vice versa

•More range and dmg but less fire rate

•Healing auras could protect towers inside from being moved/despawned

•Huntress traps can cause chain reactions between enemies

•Auras are half as effective but don't run out 

•spike blockades have small chance to stun, repairs percentage of HP when it does

I feel like most of the specializations you suggested are too one sided. You would always use physical damage instead of elemental damage unless some enemies were made weak to some elements. You would always use which ever is found best from "More range and dmg but less fire rate". I don't see why you would ever use "Auras are half as effective but don't run out".

I kinda like your idea of tower progression but I feel like it wouldn't encourage you to use other towers but instead force you to use them in order to unlock their "Perks". But this would still be a very nice addition progression wise. It could even be a way to unlock the second "form" I was suggesting.

One way or another I think each tower need to have uniquely different possible uses. And different maps should offer different opportunities to make use of those.

Edited by Windex
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It's a work-in-progress idea that just came up, so it would definitely need some balance and tuning, but it could work in some way, might have to cut some of these "perks" or change them a little. I like the idea of leveling the towers for their perks similar to leveling a hero for their abilities. Also, all of these options wouldn't be available to all towers, they would have to be specific to certain ones. By the time each tower reached level 50, you would have 5 perk options for each tower to modify it along with being able to upgrade it up to rank 5 over the course of each mission/level.

I also posted ideas on "difficulty scaling" and "massacre difficulty" if you have time to check those out.

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Generally speaking won't that always be the case?

Find what works and use that, making everything else irrelevant.

I mean doesn't that happen in pretty much every game? Certain builds/characters/weps/whatever will always be used more by players.

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, xFuNz said:

Generally speaking won't that always be the case?

Find what works and use that, making everything else irrelevant.

I mean doesn't that happen in pretty much every game? Certain builds/characters/weps/whatever will always be used more by players.

 

Yup, meta is always a problem. Like I said previously;  from my experience in DD1 The meta really didn't matter a great deal until the summoner and EV came out. At those points, the meta really formed and it was the only way to complete a lot of the maps.   

Certain builds/characters/weps/whatever will always be best and part of the meta. However, there were just dead towers in DD1 at the end. No-one used slices and dices and bowling ball turrets. It was the same builds through the maps, due to the meta defining EV and Summoners coming out.  It would be great if we could lessen the number of dead towers and not make it a requirement to use a summoner ( Which is was in DD1) and bring out a greater range of solutions. 

 

14 hours ago, Windex said:


I kinda like your idea of tower progression but I feel like it wouldn't encourage you to use other towers but instead force you to use them in order to unlock their "Perks". But this would still be a very nice addition progression wise. It could even be a way to unlock the second "form" I was suggesting.

One way or another I think each tower need to have uniquely different possible uses. And different maps should offer different opportunities to make use of those.

 

 

17 hours ago, Legendary Dragonborn said:

 To avoid "optimal setups" a little more, you could include specialization options for towers similar to what you mentioned(somewhat like shards that changed tower functionality in DD2) such as:

 

Weirdly enough. It seems the more options and specialisation you give the player the more the meta defines the game. People will find the best choice and run with that (Which is great and they should) if you wanted to be purposely stray away from the meta then yes; it could make some builds legit, but balancing stuff like that is hard.  I used League of legends as an example above.  Over the last 9 or so years, they have doubled their champions and purposely tried to more champions viable at once by giving more options. but it was all futile though as after all that the 1-4 Meta champions per role stayed.
To me, the answer has to be the map designed and how the defences interact with the environment. 

Although perks do sounds fun regardless and great for progression. 

Edited by xarta
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, xarta said:

I used League of legends as an example above.  Over the last 9 or so years, they have doubled their champions and purposely tried to more champions viable at once by giving more options. but it was all futile though as after all that the 1-4 Meta champions per role stayed.

I don't really like that example. I played dota and sure there are always metas where heroes are more used than others at higher skill levels. But you could still play any heroes you wanted and found fun to play.

Like you said :
 

Quote

No-one used slices and dices and bowling ball turrets.

There was just no way to use these as other things were just more efficient or they were plain useless on the hardest maps.

Edited by Windex
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27 minutes ago, Windex said:

I don't really like that example. I played dota and sure there are always metas where heroes are more used than others at higher skill levels. But you could still play any heroes you wanted and found fun to play.

2

League is only 1 example, it happens in most games with specialisation; Path of Exile, Rift, World of Warcraft, Diablo. Which is why I'm against these perks as they always seem to encourage meta not go against it with a part of the content just not being used/viable.

31 minutes ago, Windex said:

There was just no way to use these as other things were just more efficient or they were plain useless on the hardest maps.

 

I do believe map design is the key, as we said earlier encourage uses of towers in different cases. Instead of being a set of obvious chokes on a map, have multiple different choices to choke down an area where towers are designed to fight or have different types of chokes that you need to mix it up a bit to make these towers used. A make those towers able to be useful. The reason why the slice and dice aren't used is that it doesn't have a use. Make them strong in a certain area.

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I feel like the answer to this problem is to better balance the characters, though, and not to limit their diversity. DD2's character diversity is one of its positive points, imo, even if the balance does leave a lot to be desired (weapon manufacturer,  enough said). So I do agree that people shouldn't be funneled into using a few optimal builds, but I disagree that having fewer characters is the answer. I enjoy having lots of options and finding other ways to build around a problem.

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After playing DD1 on PS3 and only ever having the base 4 heroes, and then having all the heroes that were in DD2 - i can safely say that i absolutely LOVE having a ton of building options. The more defenses, the better. 

I tire of flame auras on every lane, every time. I want to be able to have 6 or 7 strong builds i can choose to do, instead of 1 or 2. 

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You will almost always have maybe up to 2 best blockades. Pretty much you can have a longest blockade or a best health per du.

 

You might have 3-4 best dps towers. Pretty much depends on map lay out but in some spots cannonballs were good (ancient dragon stage comes to mind) however lightning auras were really good in certain areas because of the pathing. Or you could have something like the apprentice arcane tower which is overall good. You probably don't need more then that.

 

and probably only need 3-4 utility towers max. Typically a way to slow or cc, a way to reduce the enemy and a way to buff yourself to live.

 

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Posted (edited)

Maps definitely should promote diversity, but so should enemy types. What I don't want to see is something like, "This map has a raised choke point perfect for a Cannonball tower and this is the only time a Cannonball tower is effective." I think the DD2 Cannonball is much better at that, and I really hope they expand and diversify the defense options. Poison Dart Towers are a great addition to the Huntress and give variety rather than having only traps in her kit. 

Edited by gotrunks712

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Posted (edited)

I would prefer random factors which are set at the start of each map and stay till the end. 
For example:

  • buffs that get decided on the start of the map and stay till the end:
  1.     a lane that are immune to 1 damage type (so you cant use the fireball tower, but have to switch to harpoon tower or an aura/trap)
  2.     or a less hardcounter variant a lane that just takes reduced damage from 1 damage type
  3.     a lane that excels at killing blockades (damage buff vs blockades)  (so you need to place more towers that cant be attacked.
  4.     a lane with ONLY flying enemies on it
  5.     maybe a speed buff so you need sturdy blockades
  6.     Immune to CC

 

  • Or the other way around enemy weaknesses (so its easier with certain towers, but would not be helpless when you don't have the needed towers)
  1.     certain lanes get extra damage from damage types
  2.     certain lanes are more prone to cc

 

  • Random effects that restrict a build
  1.     For example dd2 Betsey map. Once at start of the map at random points on lanes a debuff field spawns for the whole map duration or even makes it impossible to build in that area entirely (So you need to think about new places on the map to build with each new map start. You could even end up with a situation were one lane will have nearly all of those debuff patches and you need to come up with really creative ways of defending that lane.)

 

  • Or if someone likes to have the hardcounter chaos enemies. limit the lanes where they spawn (lane 1 has Cyborg, lane 3 got oger coppters  rest lanes are normal). Do not spawn them on all lanes simultaneously

 

But with all ideas there would need to be a reward system for completing multiple maps without reloading them. (else people would just reload maps till they get a layout they like.

Edited by Eterlik
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8 hours ago, Eterlik said:

I would prefer random factors which are set at the start of each map and stay till the end. 

You might as well just say you want onslaught mutators back.

As I've said on here a couple of times now, DD2 has taught us that such a system doesn't achieve all that much. It's just a false sense of diversity when in reality you're still using a handful of meta towers map after map. In fact in the long run you're probably on average putting the exact same defenses on every single map.  

Forcing people into doing things "differently" isn't ever going to have the desired outcome, especially if the fundamental balance of the game is bad. It's either just going to be pointless and achieve virtually nothing or it's going to be extremely invasive and irritating, DD2 has seen both ends of this. 

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