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KnowsNoLimits

Massacre difficulty?

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I just saw the new kick starter goal.

This intrigued me the most.

I have long awaited you guys going back to what made DD1 so great. One end game difficulty mode and not 7 meaningless ones.

I have high hopes for this. Dare I ask to see modifiers to increase it even further.

I miss DD1’s hardcore mode, one death and you were out that whole wave. It was perfect, mix mode however needed some work, I didn’t feel the difference with that one. Playing DD1 on Nightmare survival, hardcore and mix mode was a thing of beauty.

Please no Onslaught crap. That was boring more than rewarding.

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Trying to imagine how funny it would be on MSHC :D Bosses on every wave? xD Or spamming goblincopters?

Now seriously, I'm really interested to see what will be at massacre difficulty. And trying to imagine the difference between NM and MS. Like Insane-NM difference is huge, thanks to the QFTLES DLC. But what will be the main feature of a new difficulty?

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2 hours ago, solomax said:

Trying to imagine how funny it would be on MSHC :D Bosses on every wave? xD Or spamming goblincopters?

Now seriously, I'm really interested to see what will be at massacre difficulty. And trying to imagine the difference between NM and MS. Like Insane-NM difference is huge, thanks to the QFTLES DLC. But what will be the main feature of a new difficulty?

I don't think there is much reason to assume DDA Nightmare will be exactly the same as DD1 Nightmare.  They've already made a few statements around gear farming that lead me to believe scaling with players won't be mob count, so I don't see why each difficulty is going to be a copy-paste either.  Because of that, it's hard to say what Massacre difficulty would be like, especially when Nightmare didn't really fit with DD1 in the way it was implemented.

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41 minutes ago, gotrunks712 said:

I don't think there is much reason to assume DDA Nightmare will be exactly the same as DD1 Nightmare.  They've already made a few statements around gear farming that lead me to believe scaling with players won't be mob count, so I don't see why each difficulty is going to be a copy-paste either.  Because of that, it's hard to say what Massacre difficulty would be like, especially when Nightmare didn't really fit with DD1 in the way it was implemented.

Well, I think they were comparing Massacre to the good old DD1 Nightmare. So I don't know, how they will implement both NM and MS in DD:A.

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I just hope that each difficulty level is not just scaled up enemy HP and attack amounts. And from the DD2 perspective - please ensure that the heroes, defs, and the crystal also can scale up in proportion equally on some level!!!! I am so tired of my crystal getting one-shot on every upper level, or my hero dying from 1-2 DA hits. Not every end-game level should be zero room for mistakes. Hard - absolutely. Extremely hard - even better. One slip up and its game over - oh hell no. I did like how each Chaos tier in DD2 was different as the enemy mix was changed up. Made each difficulty feel different. Only issue was that you did not spend much time on C1-6, as compared to overwhelmingly huge amount of time spent on C7. Onslaught was how they tired to bring that same variety to each level, but for me is was too much. Every lane being different was overkill. I'd rather have the lane rules in onslaught apply to a whole map, for only 1 map, as opposed to every lane. A little variety is a great thing. Too little or too much can be bad. So we need to find that DDA Goldilocks!  

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, Jaws_420 said:

I just hope that each difficulty level is not just scaled up enemy HP and attack amounts. And from the DD2 perspective - please ensure that the heroes, defs, and the crystal also can scale up in proportion equally on some level!!!! I am so tired of my crystal getting one-shot on every upper level, or my hero dying from 1-2 DA hits. Not every end-game level should be zero room for mistakes. Hard - absolutely. Extremely hard - even better. One slip up and its game over - oh hell no. I did like how each Chaos tier in DD2 was different as the enemy mix was changed up. Made each difficulty feel different. Only issue was that you did not spend much time on C1-6, as compared to overwhelmingly huge amount of time spent on C7. Onslaught was how they tired to bring that same variety to each level, but for me is was too much. Every lane being different was overkill. I'd rather have the lane rules in onslaught apply to a whole map, for only 1 map, as opposed to every lane. A little variety is a great thing. Too little or too much can be bad. So we need to find that DDA Goldilocks!  

I'm being so used to NM4 or C1 to C7. Hope you don't mind telling me how difficulty works in DD1? :)

What I do know is that DD2 currently doesn't have pure difficulty. All current difficulty (except late onslaught), has a power creep in it. What we now need is difficulties for the sake of challenge not progression.

Edited by Paloverde zfogshooterz
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4 hours ago, Jaws_420 said:

I just hope that each difficulty level is not just scaled up enemy HP and attack amounts. And from the DD2 perspective - please ensure that the heroes, defs, and the crystal also can scale up in proportion equally on some level!!!! I am so tired of my crystal getting one-shot on every upper level, or my hero dying from 1-2 DA hits. Not every end-game level should be zero room for mistakes. Hard - absolutely. Extremely hard - even better. One slip up and its game over - oh hell no. I did like how each Chaos tier in DD2 was different as the enemy mix was changed up. Made each difficulty feel different. Only issue was that you did not spend much time on C1-6, as compared to overwhelmingly huge amount of time spent on C7. Onslaught was how they tired to bring that same variety to each level, but for me is was too much. Every lane being different was overkill. I'd rather have the lane rules in onslaught apply to a whole map, for only 1 map, as opposed to every lane. A little variety is a great thing. Too little or too much can be bad. So we need to find that DDA Goldilocks!  

That’s what I don’t want.

DD2’s chaos levels were meaningless you could skip right past a few with the right set up. They didn’t scale dramatically and having enemies  specific to one chaos tier called for hard counters and that’s was just zzzzzz. Also it’s funny how people think DD2 was in anyway challenging or an end game mode. Your end game Onslaught mode was tedious and ancient power were horribly implemented mechanics.

You wanted a challenge go try out Karathiki, city in the cliffs,  talay mines, palantir, winter wonderland, crystaline dimension etc. The list goes on and on. 

The build timer is a must, because it creates tension. Hardcore mode was the cream on top. You removed both from DD2, don’t make that mistake with DDA.

Stage specific enemies were the way first they introduced a new enemy type and that’s exactly how it should be done.

I hope to see Sharken, Djinn return a lot more threatening.

If I want a more casual defense game I will play DD2. I want DD1’s Nightmare mode difficulty amped up. Not with cheesey gimmicks, but with real thought and strategy that has to go into your builds. Where we don’t have a set meta and actuallygibe the player a variety of choices. 

DD1 did it right. You have all mobs come at you and they all wanted to kill you and your crystal ASAP.  You want to build your defenses as close to the spawn lanes then try that and prepared to be steam rolled, because not only did enemies have a ton of health, but they had incredible speed where you couldn’t stun lock them at the spawn.

Also Ogre trains need to come back. In DD2 what did you get 3-4 Ogres? In DD1 you had 10-15 ogres with 250 million health in places like palantir survival and they destroyed you if you weren’t vigilant with your defenses.

My point is Massacre difficulty needs to cater to the hardcore players that want that a challenge and the rewards that go with it. I hope Chromatic games learn from DD2’s mistake and don’t cater to everyone for what is supposed to the be all end all difficulty. Now that may sound elitist, but you need something for your hardcore audience to keep them interested, It should be a struggle getting there like how insane mode was compared to Nightmare.

I died a ton and very slowly got the gear to progress, To this day me and my friend joke about killing how long it took to kill one spider in endless spires nightmare mode. I miss that. It forced you to adapt and learn the map well. Then once I finally progressed the feeling was unbelievable. 

I went through your chaos modes in a couple of days and was left with anything but accomplishment. 

 

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Masacare settings.

 

You, core and all other defence have 1 HP.

No repairs.

No upgrades.

No respawn.

 

Also nothing but Goblin copters and DA chain spams.

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Personally, I hope they go with more mobs like they had in DD1, but difficulty scaling with multiple people would instead scale HP or mob damage.  Having more mobs the more players you had was just asking for abuse in farming.

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Posted (edited)

Personally, I would not want to see tower debuffs and build restrictions used as challenges or game modes as they were in DD2.

Bad challenges examples:

  • You are only allowed to build X tower.
  • No shields or barricades!
  • You only have half the mana to work with.
  • No repairs!
  • All of your towers now have lower HP and speed.

Notice a pattern? All of the above challenges involve stripping away game content or debuffing a tower to the point where it feels bleh. Challenges should instead add content, so this means more enemies, maybe some type of unique environmental traps or weird storm effects and whatnot that pop out of nowhere and do more damage to your towers. I don't know, but certainly there are better ways to makes shit intense without limiting the player in every way.

Edited by kitty
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3 hours ago, Martin Arcainess said:

You, core and all other defence have 1 HP. No repairs. No upgrades. No respawn.

And true hardcore with items/heroes removal right from DD:E and beauty of mix mode from DD1 on top? :kek:

Well, being serious, it's a bad example. Nightmare even gave you more health. So it's a thing of new content and features.

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2 hours ago, kitty said:

Personally, I would not want to see tower debuffs and build restrictions used as challenges or game modes as they were in DD2.

Bad challenges examples:

  • You are only allowed to build X tower.
  • No shields or barricades!
  • You only have half the mana to work with.
  • No repairs!
  • All of your towers now have lower HP and speed.

Notice a pattern? All of the above challenges involve stripping away game content or debuffing a tower to the point where it feels bleh. Challenges should instead add content, so this means more enemies, maybe some type of unique environmental traps or weird storm effects and whatnot that pop out of nowhere and do more damage to your towers. I don't know, but certainly there are better ways to makes shit intense without limiting the player in every way.

This reminds me of mastery. Im 50/50 on it purely because I enjoy challeneges but it felt more restrictivd.

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Posted (edited)

Hope anyone wouldn't mind letting know on how difficulty works in DD1? The difference between jumps?

55 minutes ago, Martin Arcainess said:

This reminds me of mastery. Im 50/50 on it purely because I enjoy challeneges but it felt more restrictivd.

Except half the mana to work with, that is literally Mastery haha!

Anyway, yeah, on a more serious note, the restricting aspect of this make this feels that it should stay as a "achievement" mode. One and done. Which is also why I'm still on the fence of Mastery resets unless insane rewards like uber flairs is in it. Personally, extra hyper shards isn't really hyping my mind.

Edited by Paloverde zfogshooterz
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2 minutes ago, Paloverde zfogshooterz said:

Hope anyone wouldn't mind letting know on how difficulty works in DD1? The difference between jumps?

Each difficulty level increased the health and damage scaling of enemy mobs. (Through insane)

Insane added build timers to the mix.

Nightmare did that and also dropped hero damage by 85% and (slightly) buffed tower damage, added Spiders, Djinn, Sharken, and Goblincopters to all map enemy pools, and reduced Aura size.

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1 minute ago, Caimen0 said:

Each difficulty level increased the health and damage scaling of enemy mobs. (Through insane)

Insane added build timers to the mix.

Nightmare did that and also dropped hero damage by 85% and (slightly) buffed tower damage, added Spiders, Djinn, Sharken, and Goblincopters to all map enemy pools, and reduced Aura size.

I see! Thanks! :) Just trying to know the difference between DD1 and DD2 in term of difficulty scaling.

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17 hours ago, kitty said:

Personally, I would not want to see tower debuffs and build restrictions used as challenges or game modes as they were in DD2.

Bad challenges examples:

  • You are only allowed to build X tower.
  • No shields or barricades!
  • You only have half the mana to work with.
  • No repairs!
  • All of your towers now have lower HP and speed.

Notice a pattern? All of the above challenges involve stripping away game content or debuffing a tower to the point where it feels bleh. Challenges should instead add content, so this means more enemies, maybe some type of unique environmental traps or weird storm effects and whatnot that pop out of nowhere and do more damage to your towers. I don't know, but certainly there are better ways to makes shit intense without limiting the player in every way.

I actually enjoyed DD1's Strategy Survival mode though.  This restricted you from repairing or really doing anything but upgrading as a hero during the combat phase.  Personally I hope that returns, although I agree with most of your points.  Challenges shouldn't restrict what you build, although DD2's Mastery Mode did give a large sense of accomplishment after finishing it solo.   It's not something I want to do again.

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1 minute ago, gotrunks712 said:

DD2's Mastery Mode did give a large sense of accomplishment after finishing it solo.  

I agree. Of course, the Hypershards didn't hurt either     :classic_wink: 

I do wish that wen you got all stars, that you got something a little more grandiose for your effort. the final flair was a tad lackluster after all of that work IMO. A game title would have been a  good idea. A very special flair or unique pet would have also been great. 

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19 hours ago, kitty said:

Personally, I would not want to see tower debuffs and build restrictions used as challenges or game modes as they were in DD2.

Bad challenges examples:

  • You are only allowed to build X tower.
  • No shields or barricades!
  • You only have half the mana to work with.
  •  No repairs!
  •  All of your towers now have lower HP and speed.

 Notice a pattern? All of the above challenges involve stripping away game content or debuffing a tower to the point where it feels bleh. Challenges should instead add content, so this means more enemies, maybe some type of unique environmental traps or weird storm effects and whatnot that pop out of nowhere and do more damage to your towers. I don't know, but certainly there are better ways to makes shit intense without limiting the player in every way.


I agree with this so strongly, especially having to use certain towers and not being able to use walls/cades.

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You guys have made some great suggestions. We're definitely reading. :)

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Sweet.

You guys had it in the bag with DD1’s replaybility and a challenging but fair end game. So if you are to prioritise one thing from DD1 this would be it. Time to bring back the magic that’s been missing all these years. 

Bring me Sharken, djinn, spiders and copters or what ever else.

Don’t gate me into specific towers for hard counters. Let me choose my modifiers, hardcore mode, mix mode, etc.

Reward me for my effort and throw away such badly thought out ideas like Onslaught mode. Survival mode from DD1 was the original and still the best.

Why? 1 wave means 1 wave, not 3 rounds of one wave which doesn’t change my progress. 

My point is make the game fun and not feel like a chore and you will be on a clear winner.

Best of luck.

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I always liked the mutators in Onslaught. 

 

One thing I didn't like was, the same tower set up for all lanes. Onslaught changed that oh and Frosty enemies too.  Adding something like that I would enjoy.

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17 hours ago, KnowsNoLimits said:

Sweet.

You guys had it in the bag with DD1’s replaybility and a challenging but fair end game. So if you are to prioritise one thing from DD1 this would be it. Time to bring back the magic that’s been missing all these years. 

Bring me Sharken, djinn, spiders and copters or what ever else.

Don’t gate me into specific towers for hard counters. Let me choose my modifiers, hardcore mode, mix mode, etc.

Reward me for my effort and throw away such badly thought out ideas like Onslaught mode. Survival mode from DD1 was the original and still the best.

Why? 1 wave means 1 wave, not 3 rounds of one wave which doesn’t change my progress. 

My point is make the game fun and not feel like a chore and you will be on a clear winner.

Best of luck.

DD1 still had it's issues.  1 wave was also 15+ minutes at higher levels and difficulties.  If they can bring back the DD1 magic, while also making it not take ridiculous amounts of time and even expand it beyond the 25 wave limit of Survival, I will be happy.

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5 hours ago, gotrunks712 said:

DD1 still had it's issues.  1 wave was also 15+ minutes at higher levels and difficulties.  If they can bring back the DD1 magic, while also making it not take ridiculous amounts of time and even expand it beyond the 25 wave limit of Survival, I will be happy.

This what put me off in survival. The time for each high wave was too long.

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When it comes to the nightmare and potentially a massacre difficulty and balancing in general I would really advise the developers to make things really hard first to prevent another DD:E. Better even a bit too hard than too easy, because you can still nerf the difficulty with patches afterwards, but if it's the other way around, people will already have farmed tons of easily accessible gear, which makes any later adjustment just harder for the new(er) players.

I really loved DD1 when nightmare first came out. You run against a hard wall with "insane" gear. Of course it was just a matter of acquiring a few transcendent pieces and adjusting the playstyle a bit - but you actually had to carefully farm and every new piece of equipment was an improvement - the progression felt so good.

Quote

DD1 still had it's issues.  1 wave was also 15+ minutes at higher levels and difficulties.  If they can bring back the DD1 magic, while also making it not take ridiculous amounts of time and even expand it beyond the 25 wave limit of Survival, I will be happy.

Yeah, I agree. There is no point to have waves with 4-5k enemies. If you can beat 500-1000 enemies you most likely can withstand more of the same. The map design also plays an important role, because it did matter a lot, if you killed the enemies close to their spawn or let them have to walk over a long distance, because there was a cap. Also as far as I remember some enemies always spawned with a hardcoded timer, so you literally had to wait for a new spawn within a wave without any enemies around, if you killed the previous "sub-wave" too fast.

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2 hours ago, The Ich said:

When it comes to the nightmare and potentially a massacre difficulty and balancing in general I would really advise the developers to make things really hard first to prevent another DD:E. Better even a bit too hard than too easy, because you can still nerf the difficulty with patches afterwards, but if it's the other way around, people will already have farmed tons of easily accessible gear, which makes any later adjustment just harder for the new(er) players.

I really loved DD1 when nightmare first came out. You run against a hard wall with "insane" gear. Of course it was just a matter of acquiring a few transcendent pieces and adjusting the playstyle a bit - but you actually had to carefully farm and every new piece of equipment was an improvement - the progression felt so good.

Yeah, I agree. There is no point to have waves with 4-5k enemies. If you can beat 500-1000 enemies you most likely can withstand more of the same. The map design also plays an important role, because it did matter a lot, if you killed the enemies close to their spawn or let them have to walk over a long distance, because there was a cap. Also as far as I remember some enemies always spawned with a hardcoded timer, so you literally had to wait for a new spawn within a wave without any enemies around, if you killed the previous "sub-wave" too fast.

Having gone back to play some DD1 recently, I can confirm there is a hard coded timer in some maps.  Nothing worse than having a wave of 10 enemies at the beginning of survival and you have to spend a minute or two until the second wave comes.

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