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Grinding and RNG is a good thing.

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28 minutes ago, hailminion said:

Apologies first, 'cuz I'ma go abit extreme on this one. Sorry. I buy games for fun, yes, and playing fairly and racing fairly with most people is the fun part for me. 

Let's assume the game is opened for couple months. Hardcore player at 90%. People who play normal may take 5 months to get there, whereas hardcore may take 2 - 3. Now, some people come in with big money, buy 5 months of work in couple days. 

I don't know how that sounds to others, but I'm not playing any game with that happening. A few extremely rare cases like that might be tolerable. but when a game's best suggestion to new player is "spend money and get good", I personally don't think I'll enjoy playing it.  

And from what I'm seeing, that's what you are trying to encourage. Sell for money when you are good bcuz you "deserve", buy the good with money when you new. Don't ever play the first 5 months, just get the good players do it for us, and let us just pay the money they deserve to get. 

Well that's okay if you just want to play for fun, I don't think this necessarily would apply to you and that's fine. If your're worried about people buying gear and not having to grind, remember most higher tear weapons you have to be a certain level for which means you still have to grind to even be able to use them. Also DD1 already has this system implemented in DD1 you just have to use in game currency to buy things for trade. I'm suggesting to also make real money, Pay Pal an option so it gives more incentive for people to want to continue to play. And in the end everyone benefits from it. If you don't want to buy from paylpal shops well then fine, don't that's your free choice.

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Posted (edited)

I'll be honest, I'm a bit annoyed that this is now the topic of this thread. :P

I have the same mentality as @hailminion "I buy games for fun, yes, and playing fairly and racing fairly with most people is the fun part for me."

There's just no way they will let you sell items in-game for real money or freely let anyone do so with paypal etc.

Sure I understand your point when you say people that have played the game an incredible amount of time would be more motivated to continue playing the game if they could profit from it. I myself wouldn't mind making hundreds of $$ at that point. But this should never be the reason why you keep playing a game. No game will ever be successful if it's built with that idea in mind. Remember diablo 3's real money auction house.

Edited by Windex
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1 minute ago, Windex said:

I'll be honest, I'm a bit annoyed that this is now the topic of this thread. :P

I have the same mentality as @hailminion "I buy games for fun, yes, and playing fairly and racing fairly with most people is the fun part for me."

There's just no way they will let you sell items in-game for real money or freely let anyone do so with paypal etc.

Sure I understand your point when you say people that have played the game an incredible amount of time would be more motivated to play the game if they could profit from it. I myself wouldn't mind making hundreds of $$ at that point. But this should never be the reason why you keep playing a game. No game will ever be successful if it's built with that idea in mind. Remember diablo 3's real money auction house.

And I highly highly highly agree with both of you about passion for the game! I have been playing since it released on xbox 360 :P so I assure you I have much passion for this game and have put in many many hours and still do. However I will have to agree to disagree with you about on your points for why real money shouldn't be allowed. I mean lets be honest the real world runs off of money and chromatic needs real money to stay open, hire more people and bring more content to the game. What i'm offering is prosperity for the company and the players. Again I could reinstate my arguments about how this doesn't make it a PtW system its actually the opposite in my opinion but I think we would continue to go around and around the subject. I'm sorry you're frustrated that this topic has been brought up @Windex but this is the forum and we're going to discuss issues and different topics that we would like to see. If Chromatic doesn't want to take this approach then fine I will still play and love the game. However I think it's a good opportunity for them and the players to really open the doors.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, V7 Wapanod said:

Absolutely. Like I said, people buy games for fun and to beat them. Making money from them only comes when people want to go over and beyond which we have seen in DD1 with how much you need to grind for gear (there is nothing wrong with this). So for the hardcore people who put in extra time and work for those pieces why not let the community make a bit of money and so does the company in return to keep the cash flow of the company coming in to prosper and bring in even better stuff to the game. That's just kinda my thoughts.

Many people are suggesting some kind of market place / auction house, where you can put up your items for sale or buy items. That itself would be a wonderful feature, which would make trading so much easier (compared to DD1) and as I said before it would also balance out the grinding aspects a bit for those, who do not want to / cannot play too much, because after a while this market would become inflated (in a positive way); items of a certain quality (which is not the absolut best) would become cheaper and more frequent over time. Of course you would trade items with the main ingame currency (gold, credits, mana... whatever it will be called) and items should have level-requirements for obvious reasons.

I am not sure what to think about an option with real money, because on the one side it will happen anyway and it might be better to establish a controlled enviroment, where the game developers might even get a small share from it, than to leave it completely uncontrolled. As you said it would also be another incentive to play the game for the "hardcore" players. But on the other side it reminds people of microtransactions and of course it should never be necessary to actually progress through the normal game / campaign anyway. So such a feature such only become available, once you reach the end-game.

2 hours ago, Plane said:

Anti-cheat is good to have, but it's impossible to make it 100% foolproof when the game is hosted client-side.  In DD1 PayPal shops were pretty much exclusively cheaters taking advantage of actual players, and I don't think any amount of anti-cheat protection can prevent this in DDA.  You need ban hammers for that.

 I just noticed this post from Elandrian (Chromatic Games):

On 3/7/2019 at 12:13 AM, Elandrian said:

The goal is to do peer to peer networking again for DD:A.  Having another game with server costs would hurt our small company pretty significantly.  There will still be some online bonus-y stuff that you'll have to connect to some server for, like possible cross-platform save support, but ultimately the hosting/playing will be client to client.

I wondered how they would implement the "offline" functionality, because I assumed you would normally play on a server with a validated game-state. One "solution" could have been, that the offline mode simply does not count - similar to ranked vs open of DD1. But reading this post leaves me shocked, because this means basically everything (game calculations and therefor loot) will be client-side and therefor "offline".

This of course opens the door for hacking and any kind of manipulations - which ruined the fun of DD1 in the end for me, because it made all the farming pretty much pointless, when you see other people running around with hacked gear. Sure, there were some bans, if people were so stupid to create items in a way, they would never roll in the game (with too high stats). And sure, you could argue that you could just focus on playing the game on your own or with a closed group of friends. But in the end I want to have some motivation to play the game, farm end-game maps, get better gear. Trading is one very important and fun aspect for me and maybe also trying to score high on the leaderboards. But all of this is pointless, if there are cheaters around. 

53 minutes ago, Windex said:

I'll be honest, I'm a bit annoyed that this is now the topic of this thread. :P
[...]

I don't think this is particularly off-topic but rather related. Because the loot system of DD1 was simply amazing and the core element which made players play and love this game so much. Many people - including myself - were hyped about DD:E with the promise to be a DD1 with server-side calculations. I am completely aware of the immense costs of such a server enviroment. And no surprises, it did not take too long before they shut down the servers of DD:E. So going for a p2p (peer to peer) aproach again is a reasonable decision - especially if you consider how much is going on in the game (hundred of mobs, movements, positions, shots, damage calcluations) per second but I had hoped that at least some general things would be done server-side. Like your characters with the gear/loot. But if this is not even the case, trading is not save as well. So there is no point here to even discuss any form of "real money trading", because we won't even have the foundation for any kind of secure trading. Quite the opposite, I already see stuff like item duping becoming a problem again.

2 hours ago, Plane said:

Anti-cheat is good to have, but it's impossible to make it 100% foolproof when the game is hosted client-side.  [...]

Well, there are ways to make things as hard as possible. I could think of an easy way to guarantee legit generated loot only at least (so no arbitrary or even too high stats). But we have to keep in mind that Chromatic Games is a rather small company. The developers themself stated that DD:A will be an intermediate product for DD3. So it's unrealistic to expect them to invest too many ressources on this problem.

Edited by The Ich

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Posted (edited)

I just wish this would be brought up in it's own thread : ) I'm sure this topic will keep coming back whenever someone new sees it.

@V7 Wapanod I understand your point about not making it P2W but it would make it pay to win if the strongest players in the game would buy stronger gear they're missing. They could even do so in order to be able to farm faster and make more money. This just sounds like a terrible idea to me.

Also let's be real, dungeon defenders will always be somewhat of a niche game. There's no way CG would make any substantial money from taking a fee. If it ever did,  A- The game has a huge player base or B- There's a huge amount of people buying and selling with real money. B- is a scenario I never want to experience in any game I play.

Edited by Windex
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2 minutes ago, Windex said:

I just wish this would be brought up in it's own thread : )

I understand your point about not making it P2W but it would make it pay to win if the strongest players in the game would buy stronger gear they're missing. They could even do so in order to be able to farm faster and make more money. This just sounds like a terrible idea to me.

Also let's be real, dungeon defenders will always be somewhat of a niche game. There's no way CG would make any substantial money from taking a fee. If it ever did,  A- The game has a huge player base or B- There's a huge amount of people buying and selling with real money. B- is a scenario I never want to experience in any game I play.

And I respect your opinion on that I just don't agree with it. Regardless though i'm excited for DDA like you are i'm sure and can't wait to play! What's your steam? Maybe we can play sometime on DD1. I usually play everyday.

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, The Ich said:

I wondered how they would implement the "offline" functionality, because I assumed you would normally play on a server with a validated game-state. One "solution" could have been, that the offline mode simply does not count - similar to ranked vs open of DD1. But readying this post leaves me shocked, because this means basically everything (game calculations and therefor loot) will be client-side and therefor "offline".

This of course opens the door for hacking and any kind of manipulations - which ruined the fun of DD1 in the end for me, because it made all the farming pretty much pointless, when you see other people running around with hacked gear.

Man, really.. I was really hoping there would be almost no way to hack items / characters in DD:A. Duping items is the easiest thing in games with trade on console, you can just backup your save, give any items you want and then just re-copy your save file. Also, with the cross-save feature nowhere would be safe.

I really hope we hear about ways/features in DD:A to prevent hacking/duping. I totally agree that an auction house or marketplace would be awesome to have in DD:A but like you said there's no way you can have that with hacked items.

Edited by Windex

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Regardless, I don't think you'll be able to stop every little glitch or hack, at least during the Beta testing phase.

I would assume they are going to other game developers like Epic who allow cross platform play and have great ways of preventing cheating and seeing how they do it and kind of copy that. I don't think you can ever be perfect when it comes to cheating because there will always be people more interested in modding rather than just genuinely playing the game.

In my opinion I kinda liked the two separate systems that had in DD1 with open and ranked allowing people to mod but now allowing it in Ranked. However, I don't know how they will do that kind of a system in a cross platform situation. I think the Makers of Skyrim did a good job of this though in their game.

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Posted (edited)

The only way to prevent manipulation is to have that information saved on the game's server with no access from the player. I'm hoping that characters and items informations will be stored online. Now, is there a way to have the items dropped in a peer-to-peer hosted map directly sent to the servers? The most important thing is to prevent hacked items being spread out.

What @The Ich said really troubles me.. There are 2 things that will make me stop playing games I like, 1- Hackers and 2- Lag. Like he said, if the hackers are not dumb enough to hack items with stats beyond what's possible, we'll end up with a ton of max stats items going around. Anti-cheat or not.

Edited by Windex

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Why is premium currency being discussed here? Didn't CG already say this is a pay-up-front game with bigger DLCs coming later and no micro-transactions in between?

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40 minutes ago, Windex said:

The only way to prevent manipulation is to have that information saved on the game's server with no access from the player. I'm hoping that characters and items informations will be stored online. Now, is there a way to have the items dropped in a peer-to-peer hosted map directly sent to the servers? The most important thing is to prevent hacked items being spread out.

What @The Ich said really troubles me.. There are 2 things that will make me stop playing games I like, 1- Hackers and 2- Lag. Like he said, if the hackers are not dumb enough to hack items with stats beyond what's possible, we'll end up with a ton of max stats items going around. Anti-cheat or not.

Now we are actually going off-topic here, but I would still like to comment on your question:

There are some simple ways to only have items with legit stats in your economy, if you store the account data including items on a server. Remember we cannot simply ask the server to generate items, because we also want to play offline. Instead we could use some kind of seed - given from the server in advance - to generate items from. Once you synchronize with the server, the server can verify whether the (new) items are a valid outcome/derivation of the generation process, given the previously stored seed. So you won't have any items with arbitrary stats in your system.

There are two problems with this: (1) You have no control over the amount of items an attacker is generating and (2) also not on which level/difficulty he is actually playing. The attacker could pretend to have farmed the hardest possible map and actually run Deeper Well on easy. Or he could simply call the "generateNextItem" function as often as he wants. We can somehow counteract the amount of generated items by simply limiting the number of items, which can be generated from a particular seed. An attacker would make himself very suspicious, if he would use up too many seeds too quickly to increase his chances of generating a good item. But how do you determine this limit? It would have to be pretty loose, because you do not want to accidently ban someone who is actually just playing a lot. And the second problem remains. You have no idea, if the attacker is actually playing that map or not. In fact you do not even know, if he is actually playing the game at all or if he is running some code (just calling the "generateNextItem" function).

This is just a very basic and simple example. But it shows that you can already do a lot with some simple techniques. It would counter the most trivival attacks like changing values in memory. It would also prevent any kind of arbitrary item generation and duping of items and you could easily detect the origin (player) of an item without much overhead for the server - as long as the verification process is efficient.

 

About lag: The general behaviour will be the same as DD1, which also used a p2p approach. Of course Chromatic Games can optimize the network-code and so on, but in the end the lag will be determined by the quality of the host's connection and performance. It will scale and be ultimately limited by the amount of actions/s.

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, The Ich said:

-Snip-

Your points about preventing abuse make a lot of sense. In my previous post I wanted to mention offline play requiring additional measures than server-side data storing but forgot to do so. Also I didn't even realize my mention of lag making me quite games as a possible occurrence when playing Peer-to-peer. I had the good old lag from your hardware not handling the game in mind since I'll be playing the game on ps4 and my experience from DD2 on ps4 and DD1 back in the day make me very worried.

@Aheadatlme We were discussing in-game player trading with real money. I don't think those are like micro-transactions to get cosmetics and stuff. o.o

Edited by Windex

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The majority of games where cash shops exist outside of the in game economy are generally against ToS.

On top of that, I don't believe any Tower Defense game has ever had a big enough playerbase to lead to any cash shop being really available. Any that may have existed were likely sketchy and prone to scams. 

IMO, this won't really affect DDA because there won't be a demand for it. Sure it may take time to farm for gear, but in a predominately or entirely Pve game, there's no real point to buy gear with cash. 

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I agree with most of the stuff here, with the sole exception of shared loot. Ive never been big on the whole "leeches ganking rare drops" problem that a lot of my favorite games have. In games like Borderlands, it has literally driven most of the community to avoid multiplayer with people they dont expressly know. As much as I love DD1 (and tolerate DD2) I'd say I would much rather the loot was instanced. I met most of my best friends in gaming by pkaying in public, and I'd hate to want to avoid that for fear of having my loot stolen by the first person to click it.

 

That being said, I'm fine with pretty much everything else you suggested.

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On 3/10/2019 at 8:06 PM, kitty said:

snip

Back to the meat and bones of what the OP was getting at here.

- Having super rare things based on RNG is super fun when they drop. Do not take this away from your hardcore crowd. (I bet money they gave the large donations, I was not one of them I did a mid-tier)

- You should be able to experience the entire game without seeing said rare item, or maybe even knowing it exists?

- If you are a person that cant stomach long periods of grinding, then back to my previous point, play the game organically and see where you end up. Hopefully you feel fulfilled

- I only want 2 things from the dd2 loot system. I dont want my gear sniped by a leecher (instanced loot please), and if an Item drops on the ground, lets pretend that I earned that, do not kick me out of the game so i cant pick it up if i lost. let me collect it and move on, maybe it helps me get a little further, maybe it doesn't.

- How do you make upper tier gear special thats not just looking for higher numbers? Dont get me sidways, higher numbers are a must, but I think they should be a baseline to what should be expected. People keep saying evolution, I agree, build on the dd1 loot system, and figure out a way to balance potential special properties in a way that we all aren't looking for the same high numbered piece of gear with the same special property. Variety is a sweet thing. Or maybe there's a different way to make it unique that my limited brain from every action rpg can't comprehend yet. Please do surprise me.

 

Sincerely,

A big DD1 fan

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On 3/11/2019 at 3:06 AM, kitty said:

I'd really like to see DD1 come back but with an anti-cheat, improved graphics and animations, and more features and content. I don't want to see a "new" game where Trendy tries to do what they think is the right thing. I do not want to see this game fail like DD2 or DDE.

 

Really sums up my opinion of what I hope DDA will be...

I really couldn't click with DD2. To me, it didn't feel a sequel. Im quite nervous with how DD2 is going to impact the game. 


After spending well over a 1,000 hours on DDA/DDE,  in an embarrassingly short about of time; I'm praying that DDA is the sequel to DD1 I was looking for. 

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4 hours ago, xarta said:

Really sums up my opinion of what I hope DDA will be...

I really couldn't click with DD2. To me, it didn't feel a sequel. Im quite nervous with how DD2 is going to impact the game. 


After spending well over a 1,000 hours on DDA/DDE,  in an embarrassingly short about of time; I'm praying that DDA is the sequel to DD1 I was looking for. 

I guarantee a lot of us feel this way. I mirror these sentiments exactly.

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6 hours ago, xarta said:

I really couldn't click with DD2.

Well I enjoyed DD2 and sunk a whole lot of hours into it but I can still say that I hope very little from it is taken and put into DDA. 

DD2 is basically a masterclass on how you shouldn't make a sequel. It contains almost nothing that made DD1 such a good game. 

I understand the need for innovation and trying something new but damn it's been sad watching DD2 over it's life span. All that time spent trying to remedy issues caused by the fact the game wasn't built off of DD1's foundations and as a result it's undoubtedly going to die as a half finished game. 

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RNG isnt either a good or bad thing in itself the amount of RNG makes the difference to enjoyment or lack thereof. If doing a specific map, challenge or whatever gaurantess a certain peice of equipment but it could roll useless or great I dont mind farming that map to keep trying for a perfect roll. Things like shards and mods where you could feasibly spend even years and never see the thing you are searching for  um.... just NO! Its one of the main reason I feel a shard vendor is coming to dd2. i rememebr spending 3 MONTHS 7 days a week of doing nothing but c3 before I came across my first Range shard never  mind copies of them. This was NOT a rewarding experience in the least.

MODS are even worse than shards first you have to hope you get said mod then you have to then hope that the mod rolled decently. RNG on top of RNG is just a frustrating time sink and made me quit DD2. 

Survival did mean investing hours in the hope that your kobold fish seahorse etc rolled decent but again you knew what you were getting and could weigh up if you wanted to invest that time or not.

In short having a clear objective of farming fora specific item whether or not it worked out feels better than blindly hoping that the item might drop in the first place.

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1 hour ago, dizzydiana said:

RNG isnt either a good or bad thing in itself the amount of RNG makes the difference to enjoyment or lack thereof. If doing a specific map, challenge or whatever gaurantess a certain peice of equipment but it could roll useless or great I dont mind farming that map to keep trying for a perfect roll. Things like shards and mods where you could feasibly spend even years and never see the thing you are searching for  um.... just NO! Its one of the main reason I feel a shard vendor is coming to dd2. i rememebr spending 3 MONTHS 7 days a week of doing nothing but c3 before I came across my first Range shard never  mind copies of them. This was NOT a rewarding experience in the least.

MODS are even worse than shards first you have to hope you get said mod then you have to then hope that the mod rolled decently. RNG on top of RNG is just a frustrating time sink and made me quit DD2. 

9

Completely forget about Mods and Shards.  As you said when you have a RNG Loot system and there are 2 RNG factors after that can improve it. You start getting in silly low probability to get that perfect gear. As you get to specialised your equipment by what you pick up/equip and how you level the gear up there is no need to add greater personalisation. I feel like systems like this don't add too much to the experience and is just "Fluff" to the game.  

 

1 hour ago, Cuddles said:

Well I enjoyed DD2 and sunk a whole lot of hours into it but I can still say that I hope very little from it is taken and put into DDA. 

DD2 is basically a masterclass on how you shouldn't make a sequel. It contains almost nothing that made DD1 such a good game. 

I understand the need for innovation and trying something new but damn it's been sad watching DD2 over it's life span. All that time spent trying to remedy issues caused by the fact the game wasn't built off of DD1's foundations and as a result it's undoubtedly going to die as a half finished game. 

 Glad to hear that too be honest, even though this account was made back in 2012,  I'm new to this forum, trying to get a grasp on what the community wants as a whole. When you get this development based on the game, there's always large splits in the community of what should be in the game.  I know World of Warcraft is having it with their new Vanilla Servers coming out. What changes should happen, even if there  just Quality of life.

From that live QA that the dev's did I know I disagree with some stuff that people want, like the Live hero swapping. Don't like the idea of having to Live swap on building phase all through the game. Loved levelling up the different characters, using the unique builds that were limited to my levelling up. I feel with the Live hero swapping becomes a bit to easy to manage all that.

Either way, gonna be an interesting watch to see what comes out of this.

 

 

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