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Grinding and RNG is a good thing.

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On 3/12/2019 at 2:57 PM, Aheadatlme said:


This concept is something I'm more in line with. Playing through all the main campaign maps and most of the DLC on something like Hard/Insane on Hardcore mode should be a widely available objective. I don't mind, and would actually strongly suggest, that cream of the crop gear be much harder to come across, and that the most difficult maps on the most difficult settings be extremely difficult to beat. Really healthy for the game that you have that super top tier replayability and goals to reach. I'm mostly talking about the other 80-90% of the game's content when I mention a more reasonable pace of progress.

Thats why im playing DD1. Plan on platting it on ps3 and its no walk in the park.

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5 minutes ago, balegrim said:

Gonna have to stop you right there. You're apparently so threatened by the idea of making the game less item dependent you wanted to accuse me of saying it should be MORE item dependent. Because THIS means less item dependency:

Yes, I want the item dependency of DD1, because the loot was one of the best aspects of this game and made me play it thousends of hours.

Quote

I don't appreciate when people go out of their way to intentionally misconstrue stuff because they are afraid of a suggestion. Also, nothing in that post says you gets screwed for soloing. It just explicitly states that there's always gonna need to be at least one lane where you need to involve your hero and in other lanes they will survive but probably take some losses along the lane to stress the player. IE: figuring out what you can afford to lose during the combat phase and what losing would cost you the game if you are unresponsive. What I suggested is making this afk farming crap totally not a thing. Because if you just sit in your base and don't aid your towers they will get wrecked. I guess you think having gear that lets you step away from the computer and picking classes where you can go read a magazine and automatically win is "elite play???"

Well, wasn't it you who started calling RNG "stupid" and just a case of "luck" and some other stuff about "elite players"?  Anyway I never said, that the game should be trivial - quite the opposite, because previous DD games were way too easy overall and I do not even want to mention DD:E. I wrote somewhere else, that I would even recommend the developers to make the game harder first. Better too hard than too easy, because they can still nerf the content afterwards but if it's too easy, the easily accessible loot is already farmed and you would only affect new players.

But the loot aspect made DD1 so great. There is a huge stats-range, starting from a point where you can barely beat a map with active gameplay and a strategically defense-layout and the more you progress, the easier it gets. Until you eventually reach a point, where you can afk-farm that particular map. Reaching this point should not be trivial and the incentive to farming (talking about endgame content/maps here).

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Posted (edited)

I do think the fetish with RNG is stupid. Some is ok. But there's a line that I consider to be too much. DD2 is a good example of that line and their gilded shard system.

And RNG is absolutely a case of luck. Same as the lottery or any form of gambling. You have x chance to win thing x. You might get it after two hours or 5000 hours. Or even theoretically never at all depending on the things rarity. You're lucky if you get it in the first thousand and unlucky if it takes you 8000. Having time to afk farm a map 16 hours a day is not the same as exercising skill. I was very clear about what an "elite player" is not.

An elite player is NOT someone with 16 hours of free time a day to sit and afk farm a map for a powerful item.

An elite player IS a player who can, through a combination of strategic defense placement and shrewd decisions in the combat phase complete maps that should be too hard for them. One has time. The other has talent. And the distinction couldn't be more clear.

Having a powerful item that makes the game easy doesn't make you good.  Finding creative ways to complete maps without ridiculously overpowered items does. And I don't think the late game of DDA should be afking farming. If anything, it should be the opposite. You start out able to complete maps with little effort, but as the game ramps up its difficulty and you head into end game you are supposed to be challenged and forced to make more critical decisions and play in both the build and hero phase of combat. Because the mode is supposed to be harder and therefore require more attention. And the stronger gear is there to make completing the hardest difficulties easier, not a breeze. Hardest difficulties should still take lots of effort. I don't know who you have this formula revered in your above post.

Also, afk farming is is something I'm pretty thoroughly opposed to. "Enrich the game play by not playing it" is not a notion that makes any sense to me. A good game should keep its players engaged, not play itself. Most specifically in an action hybrid genre where half of the game is about hero combat.

 

Edited by balegrim
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4 minutes ago, balegrim said:

I do think the fetish with RNG is stupid. Some is ok. But there's a line that I consider to be too much. DD2 is a good example of that line and their gilded shard system.
[...]
 

What kind of RNG are we talking about exactly? Because I don't know much about the recent stuff of DD2 and I have the feeling you are talking about some specific things there. DD1's loot and stat system had RNG as well, but there was always a solid progression up to a point of maybe 4-5k stats. From there on you had to farm a lot to get any noticeable improvements, that's true, but on the other side you did not really need higher stats for almost every content and due to the diminishing returns and the way the stats scale the potential or difference is not so big anyway. So I don't know where you take these insane numbers of hours for a specific item, but that doesn't sound right of course. A full survival run should always result in a few rare loot drops.

I think you also missunderstood me a bit, when we are talking about at which point in time (or progression state) something should be hard and easy or even afk-farmable. Because I more or less agree with you. The endgame should be really hard. But it should also offer potential super rare loot - something to strive for - that will make it slightly easier but not necessarely trival. My examples of progression which end up in afk-farm are mostly taken from DD1.

Balancing is for sure not any easy thing. I just hope they do not just add some hard counters to certain defenses again. For example the sharks of DD1 made walls useless and forced you to use "minion walls", which couldn't be pushed away - making the sharks useless in return. And the copters basically forced you to use reflection walls everywhere. I mean you could argue, that this is just an adaptation to a specific enemy, but it was pretty dominant and always affected the whole map (every lane). Having to build defense B instead of A, because A simple doesn't work anymore is also not really what I would call "challenge". I liked the spiders and even djins more, because they focused every kind of defense and you just had to deal with them fast.

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56 minutes ago, balegrim said:

-snip-
 

I'm going to take a wild guess and say you have never run Temple of Polybius or Crystalline Resurgence 3. Try AFKing those and tell me how far you get.

Now, I have a total of 0 DD2 knowledge, but an "elite player" in DD1 can for the most part AFK farm some maps because the skill that they used to beat maps with allowed them to complete the map more quickly, giving them more loot drops, thus increasing the amount of rare and powerful loot received. They also used this skill to make builds that were able to efficiently clear the map with minimal effort put into it, given their stats. (Example: the Big Brain Build) More strong loot = easier map runs. AFK farming in DD1 is the result of skill, not a sign of lack of skill.

Furthermore, "afk farming" is more of a map design thing than an RNG thing.

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3 hours ago, The Ich said:
3 hours ago, The Ich said:

-original text-

It's possible we are misunderstanding each other. And I'm referring to DD2's shard system. The RNG is pretty ridiculous on it, so it's being re-worked. I don't mind super rare loot. I just dislike when its edge is so extreme it's necessary to efficiently run content.  Gating success on certain maps behind acquiring an item that's basically a lotto ticket leaves a bad taste in my mouth and it always has.  Which is why I've always thought RPGs that put more character efficacy behind skill investments and level instead of items tend to play better. Though I don't mind if its comparatively strong to other items.

Balance IS difficult. And I honestly think the best way to balance content isn't with mobs that make defenses useless, but to bring back the emphasis on walls in general. Monsters should be tanky enough to soak hits and dangerous enough to thrash defenses. Walls are your soaking defense. They buy your towers time to do more damage to mobs before they reach them, and give your hero time to intervene.  Monsters smacking into your wall and getting blasted from the stuff behind it is critical to the parts of the game that "feel" good. The other part is knowing that those defenses will fall if ignored. The ideal recipe for gameplay would be that your walls and towers, placed right, can decimate a certain amount of each enemy wave, but your require your hero's direct assistance somewhere on the map to prevent from losing the game at multiple points during the round. How much help your defenses need can vary depending on strategic placement and strength of defenses as you've progressed, but it should not be "none" until you've out-progressed a map by a significant margin. And afk farming just shouldn't be a thing at difficulties that are supposed to be hard or even somewhat in line with the game's power ceiling.

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Caimen0 said:

I'm going to take a wild guess and say you have never run Temple of Polybius or Crystalline Resurgence 3. Try AFKing those and tell me how far you get.

Now, I have a total of 0 DD2 knowledge, but an "elite player" in DD1 can for the most part AFK farm some maps because the skill that they used to beat maps with allowed them to complete the map more quickly, giving them more loot drops, thus increasing the amount of rare and powerful loot received. They also used this skill to make builds that were able to efficiently clear the map with minimal effort put into it, given their stats. (Example: the Big Brain Build) More strong loot = easier map runs. AFK farming in DD1 is the result of skill, not a sign of lack of skill.

Furthermore, "afk farming" is more of a map design thing than an RNG thing.

If you can beat the game without even playing it, your item is broken. Finding an item that alleviates them of the need to even really play the game because they can walk away from the keyboard and come back to a victory screen is poor design and not skillful. Completing a map once and finding an item that becomes an easy mode button is luck, not skill.

In truth: no map should drop an item that lets you afk farm a map or difficulty unless it already comes from a difficulty or map many times harder than the one you're able to do. You should never get useful loot out of a difficulty you can afk farm. By the time you can afk farm a difficulty, that difficulty should have absolutely zero useful loot left to offer you.



 

Edited by balegrim
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Posted (edited)

RNG is good to an extent but when a part of a game is locked behind a RNG wall that is in my opinion poor game design that is why games like dark souls are just so darn good because if you are skilled your characters gear will never hold you back but of course if you lack skill you can always grind for better gear and levels.

 

And then there's other games those games that had their lives extended through the use of 0000 yes just a few zeros either before or after a number to make you spend more time  doing a select few maps or dungeons or bosses a few hundred times just trying to get a single item to drop so that you can enjoy the content in a game that a majority of times you pay for now I'm not saying that difficult content shouldn't exist I'm just saying you should be able to enjoy the content without having to grind for hundreds or even thousands of hours just because your gear is too weak and you didn't get lucky.

Edited by BIGREDMONSTER
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Posted (edited)

I feel like some people complaining about RNG have either barely played DD1 or played it an absurd amount of time that they gained a deeper knowledge on the matter over other people.

If I was guaranteed to get "X" item after an "X" amount of time or maps, I would have no motivation to get it.

I don't remember a time where I found an item that single handedly allowed me to beat a map I couldn't beat before. Most of the time I had to find multiple items for multiple heroes in order to beat a new map. I'm also not talking about items with a perfect or a few close to perfect stats for the given item quality. Just finding items with a couple useful stats that rolled 65-70% of the max possible stat would be good enough. I will admit, I have not gotten in the Ultimate/Ult++ range. RNG can be good or bad depending on how it affects a game. To me, RNG adds an almost infinite amount of gameplay hours to DD1. I believe it's one of the best aspect about the game. You can always find an item with better stats. I'm not talking about an item that's so strong compared to what you had before that you can beat a new map now. You can always try to get stronger.

I am of course for the idea of maps requiring a mix of skill and strategy to be beaten and not just a specific minimal amount of stats to beat. But if the difficulty scales greatly/semi significantly between end-game maps, you should at some point be able to afk farm previous maps. It adds to the feeling of power and achievement. @balegrim Said a map you can afk farm shouldn't drop gear as strong as a map that's harder and I don't really agree. It should have less chance to and maybe also drop items with slightly lower stats, but to be honest, preventing that only affects people who want to feel "Elite". We don't need to think "I'm only here because I farmed the best possible map" to me that's not healthy for the community. It also doesn't make sense to me in a game where you can just give any item to anyone if you feel like it.

^Edit: after reading his post again I realized he was mostly addressing difficulties. I have not played the hardest end-game maps in DD1, was farming a map on insane really a thing?

The hardest maps on the hardest difficulty shouldn't require only "some" farm, great skills and strategy. Sure you would feel great when you beat a map once or a few times but that would not motivate me to keep playing. In games like Dungeon defenders, what I'm looking for is replay-ability. Maybe I'm just a lazy person but in games that are not PvP games, I don't want to always be trying my hardest. There should definitely be maps that require great strategies and skill but they should not be the ones you're always farming. (I'm talking about maps that would have random events, etc, each time) There could be new map modifiers (like pure strategy) or challenge maps.

Like I and a few others said in previous posts, almost all maps should be beatable on lower difficulties while possibly have a select few be incredibly hard on even the easiest difficulty. If you don't like the idea of farming for hundreds of hours to find good enough gear to beat the hardest maps on the hardest difficulties, you could play maps on a slightly lower difficulty. Since your gear wouldn't be "as good" you would still need good strategies and skills.

If you don't like the idea of farming items for hours and you would have no merits beating a map because it wasn't on the highest difficulty, I have a suggestion for the devs. Add a new map variant/mode where all the player's stats are adjusted to a set amount and the enemies adjusted accordingly. I only see a problem balancing it according to the amount of players in the game. It could be solo only but that's probably a bad idea. There should be unique rewards like achievements, titles, etc, tied to it.

Was it really ever the case in DD1 where you needed to be very lucky and get an item in order to beat a map? If it was the case, I'm assuming that was like the hardest map. Is it really that problematic if you can't beat 1 map on the hardest difficulty?

I'd say the problem is not RNG but possibly more about how the difficulty is in DD. Let's say it would be a lot easier to get very strong items, I don't see how that would make the game more fun for anyone.

Edit : Sorry for my post being a mess, I added stuff a bunch of times.

Edited by Windex
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1 hour ago, Windex said:

*snip*

The problem isn't necessarily how RNG was handled in DD1.  The problem is how RNG was handled in DD1 and the combination of hours that it took to get to the point of farming reasonably usable gear at end game.  When it takes 4+ hours to farm a map and even then you likely won't even get a reasonably usable item, there's a problem.

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, gotrunks712 said:

The problem isn't necessarily how RNG was handled in DD1.  The problem is how RNG was handled in DD1 and the combination of hours that it took to get to the point of farming reasonably usable gear at end game.  When it takes 4+ hours to farm a map and even then you likely won't even get a reasonably usable item, there's a problem.

I agree, there's a problem if it takes an absurd amount of time to progress to the next map. I only see it being fine for the last map, possibly the second to last. It will be extremely difficult to balance it out though. There's a big chance you end up with either a progression that's too fast or ridiculously slow.

Edited by Windex

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There needs to be a clearer definition of what people are calling progression.

If you are referring to moving to the next map difficulty, like others have said you don't need ult and ult++ gear.

Once you reach endgame afk farming. You have essentially already beaten the game. The first 60 or so hours you had your 'challenges'.  You had to work out best tower placement with the low lvl gear you had. You do not need to endgame afk farm to progress. What are you progressing towards? better gear to do the next difficulty map? you can already do all the maps. Endgame afk farming is just to give your character a chance to become an overpowered GOD. Who doesn't feel powerful when you can place just 2 tower to clear a lane when it use to take you 4 towers.

If I collected a collection of powerful armour and i was not able to steam roll content, what was the point in getting the powerful gear?  The point of getting powerful gear is to feel powerful.

The reason for the 1000 hour players is because they were farming gear. They probably finished the game at 60hours game in. I find it amusing how people state they're not playing the game, but for the first 60 or so hours they did. Now they are afk farming because they have progressed to that point. You actually need to play the game before you can afk farm nightmare.  Not all maps need to be afkable eg crystal map, boss challenge.

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, cheeseburglr said:

There needs to be a clearer definition of what people are calling progression.

If you are referring to moving to the next map difficulty, like others have said you don't need ult and ult++ gear.

Once you reach endgame afk farming. You have essentially already beaten the game. The first 60 or so hours you had your 'challenges'.  You had to work out best tower placement with the low lvl gear you had. You do not need to endgame afk farm to progress. What are you progressing towards? better gear to do the next difficulty map? you can already do all the maps. Endgame afk farming is just to give your character a chance to become an overpowered GOD. Who doesn't feel powerful when you can place just 2 tower to clear a lane when it use to take you 4 towers.

If I collected a collection of powerful armour and i was not able to steam roll content, what was the point in getting the powerful gear?  The point of getting powerful gear is to feel powerful.

The reason for the 1000 hour players is because they were farming gear. They probably finished the game at 60hours game in. I find it amusing how people state they're not playing the game, but for the first 60 or so hours they did. Now they are afk farming because they have progressed to that point. You actually need to play the game before you can afk farm nightmare.  Not all maps need to be afkable eg crystal map, boss challenge.

And I don't think there should be any armor that lets you steamroll the hardest content. There should be armor that lets you steamroll content many difficulties below what you can complete with some struggle.  But the strongest thing that can drop from a map you're legitimately on is armor strong enough to let you do harder maps, not flat out crush them with an afk farm. Anything that lets you steam roll the hardest content shouldn't exist. Things should let you complete it. Not walk away from the keyboard. 

Anything that lets you steam roll harder content than you are on is probably poorly balanced and overpowered to the point of being broken. There's really no excuse for beating maps without actually playing on them. It goes totally against the spirit of gaming to be able to win a game while you're tabbed out and watching a youtube vid. No developer intentionally shoots for a system where players win without even being tabbed into their game. 

Edited by balegrim

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Posted (edited)

When I log into a game with players, I want to know they are as actively engaged in playing the game as I am. And that it will be helpful for us to work together. 

A player who can afk farm a difficulty I'm legitimately on should have absolutely nothing to gain from the loot that drops on difficulties they can set up a few towers and tab out on. The system should tantalize them to play harder content if they are that far above it by offering them gear that's far too weak to be of real use for them—with the useful gear coming from their level of difficulty or harder.  

Can afk farms exist? Sure. But only for difficulties you are way geared above. That's my stance. 

Edited by balegrim
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When you're afk farming you're not even playing the game so I agree that it should not be a rewarding experience.  As I said, there are idler games people can play if that's really their thing.  Rewards/gear/whatever in a game should come from actually doing something (mixed in with some RNG to keep stuff relatively rare).

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I'm fine with AFK farming if your build and gear allow you to do so.  DD1 does a great job of game mode variety and some extra hard maps for those that want that experience instead.  Since DDA is based mostly on DD1, hopefully they hit a nice sweet spot as well.  We'll have to wait and see.

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Posted (edited)

You should pretty much never be able to afk farm the hardest 1 or 2 maps unless you've put in thousands of hours and have pretty much the best equipment in the game. Unless I'm wrong, people who could and did afk farm maps, were doing it solo in private games, at least I was. It doesn't make you feel like you're the only one "playing" the game when you join public games. If the difficulty ramps up from maps to maps (I hope it does) and isn't pretty much the same on all maps for each difficulties, you should at some point be able to afk farm. This is a tower defense, not a shooter, a dark souls, a racing game, etc.

The only way they could really make afk farming maps not worth it or not even possible is if they constantly added harder maps with better loots so that you always want to farm the new ones and you don't have enough time to get strong enough to afk farm the hardest maps currently available.

I strongly believe that if you could never get strong enough so that you can at one point be able to beat anything with ease, no one would keep playing after beating the hardest stuff a couple times. To me, the guys complaining about afk farming don't seem to understand the amount of time you actually have to actively play a map before you can actually get to that point. Then you have to actively play a huge amount of time again in an harder map to be able to get there again.

I'm almost certain that if you didn't have the possibility to ever feel and become "Overpowered" at some point that no one would even play the game long enough to have become "Overpowered" if it had been possible.

Edited by Windex
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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Windex said:

You should pretty much never be able to afk farm the hardest 1 or 2 maps unless you've put in thousands of hours and have pretty much the best equipment in the game. Unless I'm wrong, people who could and did afk farm maps, were doing it solo in private games, at least I was. It doesn't make you feel like you're the only one "playing" the game when you join public games. If the difficulty ramps up from maps to maps (I hope it does) and isn't pretty much the same on all maps for each difficulties, you should at some point be able to afk farm. This is a tower defense, not a shooter, a dark souls, a racing game, etc.

The only way they could really make afk farming maps not worth it or not even possible is if they constantly added harder maps with better loots so that you always want to farm the new ones and you don't have enough time to get strong enough to afk farm the hardest maps currently available.

I strongly believe that if you could never get strong enough so that you can at one point be able to beat anything with ease, no one would keep playing after beating the hardest stuff a couple times. To me, the guys complaining about afk farming don't seem to understand the amount of time you actually have to actively play a map before you can actually get to that point. Then you have to actively play a huge amount of time again in an harder map to be able to get there again.

I'm almost certain that if you didn't have the possibility to ever feel and become "Overpowered" at some point that no one would even play the game long enough to have become "Overpowered" if it had been possible.

Except that's not even close to what I said. What I said was the only maps you should be able to afk farm are maps that are many levels of difficulty below the maps you actually struggle with. 

If, for example, the game had 10 levels of difficulty, gear you are acquired on difficulty 5 would let you afk farm maps set to difficulty 3 or lower. But would let you complete with a some struggle up to lots of struggle content set for difficulty levels 5-6. Gear dropped on difficulty level 10 might let you afk farm difficulty level 7 and 8, but you'd never be able to afk farm difficulty levels 9 and 10. Gear acquired on difficulty level 10 would make those easier than any other gear in the game, but not afk farmable. As you can see you don't need infinite maps or content to achieve this. I don't know why you pretended that was necessary. 

You just need a clear power ceiling and a determination about what gear lets you handle what content and how easily.  Under a system kind of like that, you'd never be farming difficulty 5 for gear you need in anything above difficulty 5. Gear acquired on difficulty 5 would let you afk farm gear on difficulty 3, but farming difficulty 3 gives you only gold and no useful loot because you need gear from  higher difficulties to progress. The very top level of equipment might let you afk farm some semi high difficulties, but you'd always be working it on the level of difficulty intended for your character. This does not require infinite maps to do. That's just an example but it shows pretty obviously that this whole infinite maps and content thing is not required. :/

Edited by balegrim

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6 hours ago, balegrim said:

 Under a system kind of like that, you'd never be farming difficulty 5 for gear you need in anything above difficulty 5. Gear acquired on difficulty 5 would let you afk farm gear on difficulty 3, but farming difficulty 3 gives you only gold and no useful loot because you need gear from  higher difficulties to progress. The very top level of equipment might let you afk farm some semi high difficulties, but you'd always be working it on the level of difficulty intended for your character.

The problem you have with a system like that is balancing progression. This would essentially be the difficulty jump in DD1 of Insane to Nightmare, but you'd be nerfing Nightmare gear at the same time. You need balanced progression between the difficulties and clear progression, otherwise it's going to be too much of a grind that people get burnt out. Progression needs to be meaningful, not just a couple of stat points different between difficulty 3, 4, and 5.

Personally I have no issue of being able to afk farm the highest difficulty of you get the right gear. In top of that, you definitely should be able to farm the difficulty below it. Not being able to do so is pointless, especially with your argument that you have to farm the current difficulty for progression anyways. 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, balegrim said:

-snip-

"Infinite"and regularly added maps was the only solution that came to my mind regarding the current state of DD1. I have never farmed a map on a difficulty lower than Nightmare since anything below wouldn't drop anything useful. I see your suggestion as adding say Nightmare 1 to 5 and that could definitely be another solution. I was also thinking about a very similar system for DD:A myself.

[ I'll be using NM-1 as Nightmare-1 and so on ]

I am totally not against your idea of NM-1 not dropping anything good enough to ever beat NM-3 with and so on. But here are the possible problems I see with that :

The loot you can get in NM-3 would have to be much stronger than the one you can get in NM-1. The difficulty would also need to be much higher. Now how much harder and drop better loot do you make NM-3 compared to NM-2? It should be really harder and require much better gear than you had back in NM-1, right?

How do you prevent people that have farmed NM-2 and obtained very good gear from it from just afk farming NM-2? NM-3 is supposed to be much harder than NM-2 that you need very good gear obtained from NM-2 in order to beat NM-3. So is the best gear from NM-2 only supposed to be strong enough to let you beat 1 wave in NM-3? Are you required to farm the first wave of NM-3 and die until you can progressively beat the next one?

This makes it look to me that the progression and the increase in gameplay difficulty would now only be from difficulty to difficulty rather than map to map. How do you prevent people from afk farming all maps on NM-5 once they've farmed NM-5 enough. It would be extremely silly to me if you felt less powerful at the end of NM-5 than you did when you "Beat" NM-4. Also, how do you make new maps challenging for people who can already beat NM-5? They'd need to add higher difficulties alongside new maps.

Nothing of that sounds more fun and more challenging to me. =/ ( I'm not addressing you specifically, it's just a comment to the people that made remarks about wanting the game to be more challenging and not have afk farming a possibility)

Like I said in a previous post, the problem is more about how the gameplay difficulty works in DD1. If it's always just a question of having enough stats and the right setup, afk farming will always be possible. After progressing to a certain point, afk farming should still be a possibility in DD:A as long as it's a much less efficient way ( lesser chance to find good gear and with lesser maximum stats ) than farming harder/better maps/difficulties. I'm of course not talking about about afk farming 4-5 maps or 2-3 difficulties below.

Edited by Windex

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I agree with the Paypal shops. Prosperity (in some since) for grinders will only encourage them to keep playing the game and allow others who want the better gear to get access to it if they don't have the time to grind like the top tear guys. Now obviously there should be some kind of regulations to the system so people couldn't abuse it or cheat people in money. I'm all for this though.

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1 minute ago, hailminion said:

so u want a PtW system. Even without time and grind, you can pay to get good gears

If you want to call it Pay to Win system then I guess you can. You have to realize that people buy games to have fun and beat them, not necessarily to make money off of them. However there are players that play a good amount of time and I would say deserve if they choose to make money off of stuff they've earned. Because in reality the item still had to be earned so it's not like the creators just made a pay to win way where you didn't have to grind, no someone still had to grind for the gear. So the grinder would make a little bit and it would again in retrospect make the company more money with people wanting to continue to pay. Also (cough cough Chromatic games) if you're seeing this post you could even make it to where you made a small commission off the the items that people buy from PayPal shops.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, V7 Wapanod said:

-snip-

Any game that has trade and powerful or rare items will have people buying/selling items. I don't really mind it since it has and will always be the case as long as some people actually pay to buy those. But there shouldn't be any in-game incentive to do so EVER. I don't want to play and see people only selling the best or most rare items for real money. All that should be done in secret. I really don't think this should be a topic, it's not like CG have said anything that would point toward them trying to prevent that.

Edited by Windex

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30 minutes ago, V7 Wapanod said:

Now obviously there should be some kind of regulations to the system so people couldn't abuse it or cheat people in money.

Anti-cheat is good to have, but it's impossible to make it 100% foolproof when the game is hosted client-side.  In DD1 PayPal shops were pretty much exclusively cheaters taking advantage of actual players, and I don't think any amount of anti-cheat protection can prevent this in DDA.  You need ban hammers for that.

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4 minutes ago, Windex said:

 Any game that has trade and powerful or rare items will have people buying/selling items. I don't really mind it since it has and will always be the case as long as some people actually pay to buy those. But there shouldn't be any in-game incentive to do so EVER. I don't want to play and see people only selling the best or most rare items for real money.

Absolutely. Like I said, people buy games for fun and to beat them. Making money from them only comes when people want to go over and beyond which we have seen in DD1 with how much you need to grind for gear (there is nothing wrong with this). So for the hardcore people who put in extra time and work for those pieces why not let the community make a bit of money and so does the company in return to keep the cash flow of the company coming in to prosper and bring in even better stuff to the game. That's just kinda my thoughts.

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